Horses are HORSES

[RachelEvent]

Maybe it's just the dark, wet weather making me grumpy, but I find myself alternately angry and disheartened by the comments made both in real life and on new rider regarding horse care and training.

Horses are horses, and you have to expect them to behave like horses. All horses have the ability to misbehave, and most of them will sometimes. Part of being a horse-owner is overcoming that.

Riding is a dangerous sport, if you put yourself two metres above the ground on top of animal, you have to accept that sometimes you will find yourself rather quickly two metres lower.

I'm not world's most confident handler or rider, I get nervous sometimes, but I can't understand why people put themselves through apparently so much strain, when they really aren't enjoying themselves :o

There seems to be a lack of common sense horsemanship, people that accept that BHS methods and Natural horsemanship can run alongside each other, and often at their best are replicates of each other. Schooling takes a long time, training is a process, all horses are green - just to different extents.

When my mum and older horsepeople talk about the 'old days' of equestrianism, I expect they are using tinted glasses, but it sounds like despite the lack of technical knowledge and advanced facilities, people had that bit more common sense regarding horsemanship. Perhaps this is just the effect of government-led safety blanket culture? The decline of riding schools where you can actually help out in less sheltered environment? The fact that people aren't out in the hunting field within a few years of riding?

[chev]

Not sure what you've seen/heard that's got to you but I'd agree with what you're saying anyway. There was a lot in the past that I'd shudder to return to but there did seem to be more in the way of sense used then. One thing that's definitely changed (and I'm not certain sometimes whether it's for good or not) is the number of novices taking on their first youngster alone, or first-time breeders. Breeding, breaking and schooling used to be things the 'profesionals' did, not ordinary people like me; if we wanted to do that we went and learned about it first. And yet I see huge numbers of people now buying youngstock as a first horse, and breeding their own foal within a few months of owning horses at all. While I'm all for demystifying things and I'm not really someone who thinks those things are neccessarily best left to profesionals, it also seems that an awful lot of the struggles people have are with horses that twenty years ago they'd never have taken on. I dunno. Maybe it's a combination of things; fewer places where you can gain the experience you need combined with the 'anyone can do it' theory doesn't always make for happy horsemanship.

The other thing that really does bug me is the hurry people have, to wean, to back, to jump, to get on and do everything. What happened to taking the time to lay all the foundations first?

Gee. Happy New Year. I've become a Grumpy Old Woman.

[Yann]

Have to say I agree with you entirely, especially about this message board, I've read a lot of things that have surprised me lately, things that would have had the poster shot down in flames a few years ago for being harsh and ignorant. NR was always very horse-centric, especially when Heather Moffett was on here regularly but that appears to have disappeared now, it's just the same as any other generic horse message board these days.

My biggest beef is with the attitude that horses are disposable accessories, and the complete failure in some cases to try and understand things from their point of view and try and deal with them from there. For me thats what good horsemanship is about, whatever hat it might be wearing. The other thing is a lack of patience - half the time it's all that's needed to resolve a situation.

[Pink's lady]

Ahh, common sense, and the the lack of ;)

Totally and absolutly agree. I cannot believe how many people go out and buy a horse as a complete novice. And by that I mean a couple of years riding at a riding school. And then they have no end of trouble with their horse due to their lack of knowledge. And it's the poor horses who suffer.

Breeding, breaking and schooling used to be things the 'profesionals' did, not ordinary people like me

That's what I thought to, until it turns out that we (being the first four to post) are somewhere near the top of the ladder of knowledge by default of the hundereds of beginners buying horses.

God knows how many times I've repeated myself in posts asking for help. And it's all the same thing. Everyone deserves (and requires) help when needed, but most it would/should never have happened in the first place is the horse culture hadn't changed. Novives are now buying horses without the back up and knowledge they need.

I learn to ride 15yrs ago at a OK riding school and then it was still the 'falling off is part of learning' school of though. Riding is a dangerous sport and if you can't accept that, don't ride. But now riding schools are so tied up in red-tape that they have to make it an ultra-safe envirionment. So the new rider thinks they know it all and end up in serious trouble.

It's all very much a case of welcome to the nanny state....... :rolleyes:

But then if it wasn't for this change, I would never have got my horses - Pink, Brodie and Kim are both produces of the 'novices buying horses' trend. Though Carys is just a nut-case ;)

[KarinUS]

Hm. I am not sure what you are refering to but have noticed in some posts as well that lead me to believe people must have had fantastic experiences at their riding schools to be so disappointed by owning a 'regular' horse.
Here in my area (Texas/US) it is much less likely that you will get to learn on a 'real' school horse. I started out on OTTBs that were being retrained for resale after racing retirement and other privately owned horses.
When I got my first horse he took off at the test ride and later often was anxious on the ground, including sitting back when tied, etc. but I never questioned his suitability because he didn't seem any worse than the horses I had had in lessons. :o
Horse number 2 was more challenging but I knew I could be a bit of a chicken so I decided to be braver and we worked it through just fine.
I am afraid if we were in the UK the whole bunch might have been fit for the project horse website! :eek:
You guys have it so lucky to have horses available that allow you to expect something so close to perfection that our run-of-the-mill equines would be considered somewhat problematic.

In the end we just do what Yann mentioned: try and see things from their point of view and work it out from there- and it all works out just fine!

[RachelEvent]

Yes, Chev, i'm turning into a grumpy old woman aged 17 ;)

I agree completely with what you are saying Yann, I started to post on newrider because of Heather Moffet - for years I didn't venture beyond the enlightened equitation board. However, my view also works the other way, that I think there is far too much misunderstood 'gentle' techniques, which are just resulting in people being walked all over by their horses. There seem to be so many people who don't realise there are times when you do have to be decisive and possibly forceful to avoid danger. At the stables this morning I saw a girl being completely messed around by her pony. He refused to stop walking along the driveway to the yard, and instead of getting slightly tough, she just let him wander in the way of cars. I know the pony, and he just needed a firm hand.

At a busy yard, and here on this message board, the novice owners buying novice horses thing really is terrifying. My riding school owner/instructor is of the old-school, but she always said that "for a first pony, the age of the rider and age of the pony should add up to a minimum of 21" - and while that didn't stop problems, its sensible advice. The capable young riders would ride young ponies, but under supervision from a professional. OF course, on new rider theres always someone saying "my friend got a young pony when she was a noice, and it was all wonderful" but that's no reason that every time will be wonderful.

I have a 1969 copy of the manual of horsemanship, and every word in there is sensible, well thought out, safe and kind horsemanship. Their suggested outline for the training of the young horse is a slow, sensible and comprehensive one. It's an old cliche, but sometimes the manual of horsemanship is something that people should be made to read :o

Thinking of possible reasons for this lack of common sense - my pony club used to focus on the training for it's exam levels as the core of activities, thus promoting an overall correct and comprehensive kind of equestrianism. Now it is competition focused, and by only attending certain rallies, one misses out on large chunks of what should be an all-round syllabus.

[KarinUS]

Breeding, breaking and schooling used to be things the 'profesionals' did, not ordinary people like me; if we wanted to do that we went and learned about it first.

:eek: I have to admit I am probably one of those non-professionals! I'd never think of breeding simply because there is such an abundance of unwanteds where I am that any breeding I would do would just contribute to the surplus.
But I am enjoying having a relatively unhandled yearling as my third horse.
I would not send her to any of the professionals in my area.
In fact part of what's so great about her is that her willingness, trust and curiousity has never been tainted by any 'professional' training.
Professional training would ultimatelt be a 30 or 60 day rush job. Doing it ourselves we can take however long it takes and keep it fun for her. I hope she will never develop the barriers that the others have. In many ways it's easier to teach her from scratch than to overcome the baggage that our two trained horses carry.

[winterbalto]

Hum, I see everyone's point. I kindof started off the opposite way, I first started renting horses and then I started taking lessons. So I was already used to horses bucking and bolting with me and I became deadened by it. Once I started taking lessons I thought that the idea of the best horse was one that didn't do these things (now of course I know that there's lots more to consider!)
Maybe the thing about people having more common sense back then is that they actually USED their horses. They had to learn how to teach their horses things and keep them under control because otherwise they wouldn't get the farm work done or make it to the market ;) Now people can buy a horse and leave it at a stable to forget about it except for 2 times a month when they actually ride it. So unfortunately they don't really HAVE to know anything!


~Nicole

[Crazyhorse]

I agree with all that has been said re horses are horses and we shouldn't in effect expect them to fit in with our ideal of " the perfect horse" all of the time. However, without the benefit of coming from a horsey family it is difficult to progress from being a "novice". A lot of us do not have the opportunity to ride other horses and thus gain experience with "real horses", both in terms of riding and stable management. I am at present looking to have a horse at my RS at working livery. I am thinking long and hard about the situtaion and weighing up all the pros and cons. I will not rush in head first and will have the benefit of a supportive yard and RI if I do decide to buy. I find it hard as I believe that after 5 years of lessons I don't really learn as much as I used to. I need time to assimilate what I have learned and try things on my own. I have advertied for shares for nearly a year and nothing. I have worked at my RS to try and get more experience, but beyond this I can't see how I can progress any more. New Rider has helped in showing that first time ownership is not a bed of roses and that it can be a hell of a hard slog sometimes.

[chev]

:eek: I have to admit I am probably one of those non-professionals! I'd never think of breeding simply because there is such an abundance of unwanteds where I am that any breeding I would do would just contribute to the surplus.
But I am enjoying having a relatively unhandled yearling as my third horse.
I would not send her to any of the professionals in my area.
In fact part of what's so great about her is that her willingness, trust and curiousity has never been tainted by any 'professional' training.
Professional training would ultimatelt be a 30 or 60 day rush job. Doing it ourselves we can take however long it takes and keep it fun for her. I hope she will never develop the barriers that the others have. In many ways it's easier to teach her from scratch than to overcome the baggage that our two trained horses carry.

There is a big difference though between where you are and where I am. Breaking here was never a rush job by any means; we used to take horses in for backing and schooling and they were there for two or three months, usually; unless they had the basics down. But it was always something done at a yard, if you wanted a decent horse at the end of it; no-one in their right mind would buy an untouched three year old and back it themselves with no prior experience in the belief that that's the best way to bond/do away with other people's problems/learn. But the sales here now are packed with people doing just that; had lessons as a child, never schooled a youngster in their lives let alone actually started one from scratch and the first horse they buy is a gawky looking unhandled two year old that they plan on riding as soon as they can catch the damn thing and tack it up. Ok; so I exaggerate slightly; but the culture here has changed considerably, and it's really not always for the better.

The breeding thing scares me more though; suddenly it seems anyone with a mare (regardless of age/conformation/temper/performance or even, worse still, soundness) thinks about breeding it at some point. Most of these people have only seen foals over the fence, have never seen a mare give birth, have no real idea *why* they're thinking of breeding (other than the usual 'I'll be able to do everything with it from scratch and know there won't be any problems :eek: ) and often have several really odd ideas that are likely to end in near disaster (favourites include 'The mare is sweet, so the foal will be too', 'Ok, so mare is pig-ugly but the foal gets all it's genes from dad so that's ok', 'I want a 16hh foal from my 14hh mare so I'll use a 17hh Shire because that'll give me the horse I want but won't cause any problems because contradictory though it sounds the mare limits the size of the foal'....).

Oops. I ranted again... :o

[horseygal90]

I learn to ride 15yrs ago at a OK riding school and then it was still the 'falling off is part of learning' school of though. Riding is a dangerous sport and if you can't accept that, don't ride. But now riding schools are so tied up in red-tape that they have to make it an ultra-safe envirionment. So the new rider thinks they know it all and end up in serious trouble.

It's all very much a case of welcome to the nanny state....... :rolleyes:

The latest nanny state case - At my school, if you fall off, you're not allowed to either a) get back on or b) ride for 7 days. That includes your own horse, or if you just slid off and landed on your feet. :mad:

[chev]

Crazyhorse - I didn't come from a horsy family either. That's one of the things the government (and also the huge numbers of people happy to sue the minute anything untoward happens) have done for though... and that is the number of places you could gain that experience even just ten or fifteen years ago that just don't exist any more. Not having a pony wasn't so much of a handicap when I was a kid; I still went to Pony Club (and usually just rode whatever pony/horse was spare and available) and worked at a riding school until I left school and got a job there.

Finding those opportunities now is much harder. :( :( Very sad.

[Crazyhorse]

It is hard. In some respects I am lucky. My RS has quite a few falls, but has the attitude that you get back on and learn from it. I have heard of schools that don't do no stirrup work anymore incase someone falls. It's sad. We all know the risks when we get on. If you never fall off it just becomes something so much more scary when you actually do.

[Tanyajayne]

I am a complete novice when it comes to horse care. (in my eyes anyway) I'm 31 have ridden for 20 years (mainly riding school but also friends horses). Came back to riding in Sept 2005 after a 3 year break coz a fell off and broke my collor bone - it took 18 months to heal so I lost my confidence. Getting there now with help from my amazing RI.
I am looking to buy my own horse this year so have just completed bhs horse owners course level 1 (due to start level 2 in February). I ride once a week and also help at the stables (i.e. tacking/untacking, rugging up and feeding.) RI has told me that she is confident that I will be fine having my own horse (which will be kept at an experienced livery yard.) RI has also said that she will come with me to vet any horse that I am interested in so I will have her opinion as to weather she thinks we would be compatatable. I also have a good friend my age who has owned horses most of her life (she has ponies on loan from ILPH and her own horse.) Plus I have contacts at 2 farms that have always had horses for themselves and their children.
So what do you think?
Do you think I am ready to take on the comitment of horse ownership?
Your thoughts (good or bad) would be appreciated.

[Yann]

Totally and absolutly agree. I cannot believe how many people go out and buy a horse as a complete novice. And by that I mean a couple of years riding at a riding school.

Guilty:D Not even two years in my case, more like one - but I did some training at the riding school, helped out there, shared for 6 months, then bought a suitable horse and kept it at a yard where I could have help and advice if I needed it. It wasn't 'bloody hell, now I've finished riding, what do I do with it now', far from it, in fact it's been three and a half delightful years now. Perhaps I was lucky, but I'm sure I'm far from unique these days. The important thing is to make sure you at least have the basics before you take the plunge into ownership, I suspect a lot of people don't always take the trouble to. And I'm afraid NH stuff from books turned out to be remarkably useful as well ;)

I think there is far too much misunderstood 'gentle' techniques

I think the emphasis is on misunderstood, no NH technique I've ever come across ever suggests letting the horse walk all over you as a good thing, in fact some are actually pretty harsh. I really don't know where this kind of soggy attitude to horses comes from, it certainly isn't treating horses as horses.

[Keket]

The latest nanny state case - At my school, if you fall off, you're not allowed to either a) get back on or b) ride for 7 days. That includes your own horse, or if you just slid off and landed on your feet. :mad:

:eek: Yikes! How's anyone supposed to learn that way? At my school, if the horse starts bucking and you fall off, you get right back on if you can. Otherwise, the horse wins and it'll keep doing it. If you lose your balance and come off, you get back on.

Although, the last time I came off, I landed on my tailbone and RI told me that if I didn't go to the hospital and get checked out, then I wasn't getting back on next week. But that was just her being worried because of how I landed.

[GOBBY]

This is one of those threads that can quite easily become heated quite easily, however was glad to see and agree with several,
i grew up with horses around me all my life, and my grandad still had working horses after he got his first John Deer when i was 8 years old ,from the royal cornwall show,
im now in my 40s have kept all types of breeds, competed most my life and yet i still class myself a novice, or a novice once again,
as had nasty accident 10 years ago and confidence has never come back, also i dont have correct balence anymore,and other issues due to personnel medical problems,however i reconise these, my faults, yet i still know more than enough on general knowledge, land management,and to me personally all these things surely run side by side on horse ownership,
i beleive you should be open minded, you can learn something new everyday whether you have been involved with horses 1 year or 50 years,
but without prejudice you could have had good advice, good instructor, but surely knowledge is built over several years and its unlimited.
Also i can never understand why people have so much equipment, to me a lot of it is unessessary, and do these people who have all this equipment really know how to use it correctly before doing so,
such things as lunging to do correctly cannot be taught by someone explaining on a forum such as this,
or any other, you need a person there with you ,who knows what they are doing, teaching you how to hold the line correctly, whip etc,
but to me if you need advice such as this, and you have a young green animal, what on earth are you doing owning that animal in the first place?this is how we end up with problem animals,and the same applies to breeding going on in the wrong hands.
im not very good at putting myself over in print, so proberly gone on a bit, and il apoligise before i get myself in trouble as ive proberly just upset someone!!!!

[KarinUS]

To Tanyajane and Pink Lady,

I think it depends a great deal on what kind of situtation you are in and what kind of arrangement you have at your yard.
Frankly if people do not have the opportunity to apprentice at a yard, etc. then nothing will prepare you for horse ownership. If your arrangement is that you show up, get on, have a lesson and then leave then 5 years of this won't give you a better understanding of horse ownership than 2 years of this would.

I think I had the ideal start for me and my horse the way things were handled at my yard. As horse owners we could depend that the YP would keep an eye on them and do the routine care but if things came up we were certainly trained and expected to handle it ourselves. Right after I got DJ he had an abscess and I was taught to treat and wrap a hoof. It was a great learning and bonding experience. Something lessons would have never addressed.

I think with the right set-up at a yard it can be a great safe way to get your feet wet without compromising the horse's care and safety. After 3 years of boarding in such a hands-on environment I was able to take the horses home without a glitch.
It would have been much more worrisome if we simply bought a horse, took it home and hoped for the best. Years and years of riding school riding often only teaches you to ride better- but not necessarily to take good care of a horse in a day-to-day environment.

[Keket]

I think with the right set-up at a yard it can be a great safe way to get your feet wet without compromising the horse's care and safety. After 3 years of boarding in such a hands-on environment I was able to take the horses home without a glitch.

I think that sounds perfect, KarinUS, and I can attest to that. I go to a small riding school. One horse, one instructor, a handful of students. And it's small enough that RI can keep track of what each student wants. Some people just ride for the fun of it. Others are improving their skills. Still others (including myself) are looking toward future careers and horse ownership. So some people just come out, hop on the horse, have their lesson and go home. But there's a few of us that catch horses in the field, do full groomings and tackings, lunge, do groundwork, give wormers, help braid manes and tails, give hay.... (For the record, I think I'm the only student who does ALL of the above). And I'm getting to learn all of these things under supervision. No student has to do these things, but RI is happy to teach us if we want to try.

[casey]

I agree wholeheartedly, and have stopped posting as much on this account. And I have finally learned, if I have nothing good to say. I wont say anything at all. But I am increasingly frustrated by the lack of common sense being displayed.
I have ridden for numerous owners, and competed to a resonably high level. and wouldn't even consider breaking or schooling my newly backed youngster.
Once this process is done then yes, training youngstock is very rewarding.
Yet, some folk, would have you believe it is the eaiest thing in the world.
No wonder the classified ads are bubbling over with "problem" horses if 'proper' training and common sense is disregarded.

Edit to add:- You'll be pleased to know this isn't my only bugbear :D
Oh Chev, I am sooo with you on the breeding front too. Argh!

Good post.

[jessiepuppy]

But it was always something done at a yard, if you wanted a decent horse at the end of it; no-one in their right mind would buy an untouched three year old and back it themselves with no prior experience in the belief that that's the best way to bond/do away with other people's problems/learn. But the sales here now are packed with people doing just that; had lessons as a child, never schooled a youngster in their lives let alone actually started one from scratch and the first horse they buy is a gawky looking unhandled two year old that they plan on riding as soon as they can catch the damn thing and tack it up.

scary isnt it?
you know these horses are going to end up with problems and then they are on the slippery slope-unless they are lucky and brought by someone who can help them work through the problems.

i want to buy a foal for my next horse, and although i have had regular lessons since childhood and owned 3 horses before (one of which was a yearling) and worked full time at a riding school for 4 years i will still be taking full advantage of any exerianced help i can.

[Wally]

You know why Frances and I stopped the riding school? ONe of the reasons apart from the insurance was the total lack of "get up and go" from the kids.

If it didn't happen NOW they didn't want to try again and perfect/practice or learn.

If a horse decided he was going to do something the kid's would let them, often Mafnús would decide the kid on his back was only an ornament so he'd go and find something to eat, and they'd sit there and let him without even lifting a finger to try and stop him. We were lucky we had some SUPERB novice and beginer horses, so much so that when we moved them onto a horse you needed to ride they had no interest, they'd sit on Kvikur, Whiffy, Fat Cob all day and press buttons and things would happen, they didn't want to find out how to "RIDE" a horse , they were only interested in sitting on automaton!

In the end just to get the kids to react we would give them a goat on a leadrein each, I'd set them up on the track and then tell them they could ride if they could keep the goat away from me in the middle with a bucket of food. There were few kids who even tried to get the goat to stay on the track, most just let the rope and the goat go.

I think maybe some folk think that Frances and I are too hard on our horses, I am a great beleiver in the "thin end of the wedge" horses test the boundaries and if you let them put a toe over you need to re-establish that boundary INSTANTLY. This is why we have such nice horses, they know what they can and cannot get away with and feel safe and secure. I be god, I'll sort things all they have to do is look to me and life is hunky dory!

Folk think they have to treat a horse like another human, and he'll love you the same way, the horse then walks all over them because the boundaries have not been kept 100% stable.

I work quietly around the horses all the time, until they become rude and mannerless, then they get roared at and if necessary a slap. Nothing more than any herd leader would do!

[oxowoman]

WE'LL I'VE ONLY HAD HORSES FOR 4 YRS AND I'VE HAD A BROKEN FOOT, EYE SOCKET, COXIX, AND PELVIS. HASN'T PUT ME OFF IN FACT MY NEW HORSE IS 17'2hh WE ALL FALL OFF AND YES HORSES ARE HORSES AND I LOVE IT ALL:cool:

[JOJOBA]

The increasing security on yards is killing all the fun of it in my mind.
When my mum learned to ride it was a case of 'heres a horse, see you in a bit'. She used to ride bareback down the road in her schoolclothes on one horse, leading another to turn them out!
When I was younger and was too young for lessons our YO (we keep our horses at a riding school) used to just lend my mum a horse and let me ride around on it. If it snowed we had our lesson in the field, wading through knee deep snow on the ponies, and we used to have little shows and stuff.
My mum reminded me the other day of when I borrowed an ancient riding school pony for a treasure hunt on our yard. The minute I picked up the map the horse, who usually had to be forced into a trot, took off flat out across the field with me clinging round its neck and my mum chasing me :p. Everyone thought it was hilarious that the horse could move that fast!
Our Pony Club used to run its camps at chatsworth, camping down by the lake with the horses tethered overnight outside the tents.
Gradually though there had become less and less that our YO will allow us to do (because of insurance etc). Ponies are now no longer to leave the yard (obviously liveries still can). Kids have to sign in and out when they help out, we have warning signs all over saying 'Horses can be unpredictable, do not approach without permission'.
I arrived on the yard recently to find a new yard girl mucking my horse out with him tied up. I asked her about it and she was really surprised - 'but that's how you HAVE to do it'. I dont think my horse has ever been tied up in the 6yrs Ive had him and he was not impressed.
The horse I school trod on my foot recently and it was the worst pain Ive ever been in. I felt sick, faint and white lights started popping in front of my eyes as I slid down the wall. When I told his owner she was really apologetic which surprised me, it wasnt her fault that her horse has no spacial awareness! It never occured to me to blame anyone except the horse (idiot) and myself (should be more used to handling youngsters!). My toe is still black 6months later, wont bend and has no feeling on the top but I still have no plans to sue :p.
If I fall off I wouldnt even consider suing my riding school - it says on a big sign in the office that 'RIDING IS A RISK SPORT WHICH YOU PARTICIPATE IN AT YOUR OWN RISK', people need to realise that horses are half a ton of recently domesticated animal, not My Little Ponies.

xxx

[oxowoman]

We'll I've Been On The Ground Looking Up Often. I've Had Many Fractures And I Agree Horses Will Be Horses And I Love It All:d

[JOJOBA]

Ditto - a riding school horse ate my little finger :rolleyes: and broke it, that baby horse broke my toe, my TB has knocked me out twice, kicked me 3 times and thrown me over his head a fair few times, my cob has knocked me out once, thrown me off twice, fallen on me twice, leapt into my face (the most potentially bad accident, I cant believe I got out of that one with an intact face), Ive fallen off riding school horses more times than I can count - once landing on my head (in the only puddle in the school) and getting knocked unconscious.
If ever there was a parent wanting to start their dear daughter off in the world of ponies they ought to come chat to us lot :p.


xxx

[Afellpony]

Nowadays folk just go out a buy foals like you'd go and buy a puppy, thinking it's gonna be easy. Foals are absolutely adorable creatures to have. They're wonderful to teach things to and take for long walks. They love to see new things and be the centre of things. It's so nice to have a pony from a foal and see it grow into a gentle and well mannered three year old and, as it's been with you all this time, is usually (well mine was) unphased by you climbing onto its back.
However, foals need specialised care from people who have good experience of horses. They need to meet people, see as much as you can show them and be disciplined cos believe me even an undisciplined foal can deliver a very powerful kick! They are not for people that have only spent about 2 years at a riding school. I loved my foals and it was a joy to see them growing into well adjusted adult ponies that had confidence. Sadly, I wont be buying any more foals, too old. My present pony is rising 5 and is coming along beautifully. So I say, if you want the 'almost perfect horse or pony', if you have the time, patience and experience buy a foal and watch it grow. It's a very special feeling when you mount him/her for the first time and think 'this is the result of all MY work'!!! Hopefully, he/she wont put in a massive buck!!!!
Sorry this is long.

[RachelEvent]

I arrived on the yard recently to find a new yard girl mucking my horse out with him tied up. I asked her about it and she was really surprised - 'but that's how you HAVE to do it'.

On the contrary, I think this was actually fairly sensible. It's not how you HAVE to do it, but if I was a new girl mucking out horses I didn't know, I'd tie them up, or tie them up outside until I had better gauged their temperament. Of course, when you know the horse, its not always the sensible thing to do.

Oxowoman, whilst your attitude is very positive, you don't think that the number of fractures could be highlighting some not-particularly commonsense situations you're getting yourself into? After all, professional horsepeople usually get more business when they have their limbs intact.

Wally, your riding school has always sounded like it was brilliant. I just cannot sympathise with these children, I know I got annoyed as a youngster at a riding school at the other children who weren't completely absorbed in being a better rider. I would beg borrow and steal any pony going, especially if I could have the ride out hunting. I read horse books, usually non-fiction instructional, for all of the time I wasn't at the stables. But most of all, my school actually let me develop my knowledge in a comprehensive way.

I think I am very lucky that I have done most of my stable management training with people who are at the very top end of the BHS themselves, actually writing the manual of horsemanship, whose way of working was firstly safe for the horse, secondly safe for the human and third was not always rigid in it's application.

[FRED]

Horses are HORSES, agree totally.
Personally I tend to take with a pinch of salt some of the things said/threads that alarm me, agree we live in a world full of arm chair critics and were paying the price for it{risk assesment,arm chair experts but too few real experts, how did mankind get this far? why all the mistakes}Horses can be very dangerous in fractions of a second and calm just as quickly with the right approach, unless there are other issues{more rare }
Some threads are very innocent and so honest, the owner has lost their way or some times lost the plot completely.I don't think novice owners have a exclusive on bad things,just look at some of the stallion horror stories out there, in very experienced hands too.How many livery yards {message boards too}see more action in the tack room/ pm board , from gossips and loving owners{makes me want to throw up just thinking about some of these places}not all are that bad,but enough are.

That some people are happy not to be speed merchants,ride in the rain or jump or even accept that a healthy horse can do far more than we think, be they shoed or not,bitless or treeless,the only thing that matters is the horses health,safety and their riders too.

I have had quiet a bit of 'ear bending' for buying a young and unbroken horse,frankly I don't give a monkeys what horsy people say.D's been saved from the dreadful shameful UK horse sales room episode of his life and that's good enough reason to own a healthy horse,but of course there is a lot more to it than that.
He should be broken and backed for his age, should he?,why ? .I'm happy he can be just a horse and do ground work safely with me, were going further than that,little by little.If ever theres a heinz 57 inhand show I would be happy one day he could show,but in my eyes he will be every bit as good as the 'papered' horses,but will they see things the same as me,doubt it some how.
This horse rears,kicks,bites and double barrels,so I'm told, cant and will not lift a foot.
I know for a fact that loading a young horse without a lead rope would be considered madness by some of you,yet if you study 'natural horsemanship' you can do this, be safe and have a happy horse too, and actually do it yourself without being an expert.
I'm not remarkable,cant claim to be horsy{heaven forbid! if I ever join that club because there is a lot more I would like to say about that lot. I'm sure there would be a shortage of dog food if I had my way and that's just the starter}
I don't have years of expert knowledge,but can say from my years of study and being with good teachers that my horse will not do any of the things he did or would not do.My advise is lean towards the NH route if your new and you will get this far safely.But remember that horses can rear,kick,bite etc,and usually its because of us they do this.
I certainly would recommend Heather Moffett's teachings too,in fact no 1 on my list.
My personal belief{based on my long career working on complex machinery in dangerous environments}never be afraid to seek help,study and work with people who you like, you will not go far wrong,what ever you do,be you a novice or expert! because in my real job im a expert {rare indeed}and I can say you never stop learning and will never know it all.
I think empathy, patience and common sense are something you have or don't have.
Phew! don't be offended anyone, just my own very personal opinions.

[JOJOBA]

RachelEvent - I think the point I was trying to make was what you said - in all my years of being on my yard I dont think anyone has ever tied my horse up, although it is the correct thing to do, because no-one ever really did it 'by the book'. Now though it is important to always do things exactly correctly, even to the point of new helper on our yard having induction days where they are assessed and given 'health and safety training' etc.
Before, you just went in and did it, now new helpers are only approaching the horses they have been told are okay, tying them up, not leading them alone etc etc. I wasnt saying she ws wrong for doing so, just trying to illustrate the huge difference in the way people treat horses, and the change in the way YOs have to look at things.

Having said that though I went to help at an animal sanctuary recently and was completely lost in the lack of interest they had in me! Eventually they said 'yeah... take a pony for a walk down the road or something', so I did so, and when I got back they said 'that wasnt very far was it??' despite the fact the pony I had just dragged 10mins down the road was chronically hopping lame. They then said 'you can ride the grey if you want, just take him out' I said 'I dont have my hat' and they said 'so? Just take him'. I said 'I think Im a little big (this pony was about 11hh, welsh), and the HUGE guy there said 'oh I ride him you'll be fine'.
I found out later (having refused to ride) that the pony was ex-LR and an absolute demon unless someone was walking with him.
:eek:

xxx

[Crazyhorse]

Fred:That some people are happy not to be speed merchants,ride in the rain or jump or even accept that a healthy horse can do far more than we think, be they shoed or not,bitless or treeless,the only thing that matters is the horses health,safety and their riders too.

Here here.

[stevielee]

I havnt read all the posts. When i first got my horse she neede a lot of schooling but all i wanted to do was jump and take her to shows. Then after a few months a stopped what i was doing just started to walk her round when i rode her and make her bending and actually riding her properly. And she has come on loads. Where as before she wasn't. I have learned that the horse world isn't all about shows and things. She is a brill horse now but we still have our off days. I am now very slowly bringing on a 10 year old who hasnt hardly ever cantered with a ride on her back. We are taking things very slowly and still walking lots and lots. These things aren't to be rushed :D
Also about youngsters i no some people who have 3 year olds and are jumping them at shows. I don't think this is right but just my opinion.

[Colorado Sunset]

Wally, your riding school has always sounded like it was brilliant. I just cannot sympathise with these children, I know I got annoyed as a youngster at a riding school at the other children who weren't completely absorbed in being a better rider. I would beg borrow and steal any pony going, especially if I could have the ride out hunting. I read horse books, usually non-fiction instructional, for all of the time I wasn't at the stables. But most of all, my school actually let me develop my knowledge in a comprehensive way.

Thats exactly what I wanted to say :) Wally, your originality is amazing!

I was one of the ultimately obsessed kids, helped out (hmmm, still do :D) as often as I possibly could, read every horse book back to front a million times. My parents made me chose b/w going on a riding holiday I loved every so often, or riding lessons every week. I chose the riding holiday, and didnt eat lunch at school (made something at home) so that I could save up my £2 a day lunch money on riding lessons!

I think the key is, I wanted to do it, it wasnt my parents shoving me on a horse because they thought it was a good hobby, it was my shere determination that allowed me to continue.

The riding holiday- well, i fell off A LOT! everytime we jumped, did bareback :D Thats where I learnt to school green horses, yes at a young age, however I dont feel I did (or the RS did) anything wrong, as I was a capable rider, schooling the ponies the staff couldnt fit on, and only with a member of staff shouting every step of the way :D

I am completely gutted at the way this has all turned out. At my RS we have no exciting "problem ponies" for me to sit on :p and due to this the other day I realised my confidence has slowly deteriorated! :( Im by no means unconfident, but now id prefer if the horse Im riding doesnt take off with no control whatsoever, or chucks me off, whereas before Id be hoping it would happen :rolleyes: (think that might be the growing old at 17 thing again Rachel!)

Riding school ponies these days are a godsend, and if there not they get sold on very quickly :( These horses are so different what many people get as their first horse, that they dont know what to do with something thats not a "dead to the leg" horse with a mouth!

Ill stop... rant over :D

[crazystevie]

I agree with pretty much everything on this thread. I do find it quite shocking how many inexperienced people take on youngsters or unbroken horses,a nd think that they'll 'learn and grow together'

Im quite ashamed to say :o really that I bought my first horse after about 1 year of riding - 2 lessons a week. Probably was overhorsed to start with. Fortunately though, my mum is a riding instructor, worked on numerous yards, worked for malcolm pyrah and generally has a lot of experience. She helped me bring on Murphy, and myself, and I can safley say, Murphy is a fun forward going ride, but so safe you could sit a baby on him, he is a true gent. So i've learned a lot with them, and have a good horse as the end result. suppose I was one of the lucky few, but then again, I had my mum's experience to help, and really, he was mine and my mum;s ghorse to start with. Now, I ride him, and my mum has an OTTB. I'm lucky really, as although I'm not the most experienced, I have constant help from someone who is.

[pengapenga]

I agree with a lot of what has been said too. I am also probably guilty of some of it too:o I am taking it slowly with training of Frits and am getting naughty Mysty to work better, I don't follow any particular training discipline, just my own mixture of commonsense and what I have learnt growing up around horses:)

[Horseswillrule1]

TOTALLY agree! Needed to be said.

Job well done,:D

[Bay Mare]

I agree with a heck of a lot of what's been said so far (so won't repeat it :) ).

I've seen quite a few threads recently that have made me go :eek: one as recently as yesterday advocating withholding hay and water as a method of catching a difficult to catch horse. What is all the more shocking is that others are saying 'go for it' or agreeing rather than trying to show people that there is a different way to go. My views on novice owners are already widely know so I won't go there ;)

I'm not an expert by any means but thankfully know enough to be able to generally sort the BS from the useful advice. Unfortunately not everyone who reads the board does have the experience of horsey life because they're just not allowed it these days. No bareback, no exercises like 'round the world', no touching to show where the aid should be given, no this, no that, no the other .... nanny state be damned :mad:

Unfortunately we have no way of knowing people's 'credentials' on here. I know quite a few people both on the internet and in real life who spout all kinds of 'wisdom' (usually from books which they devour by the gazillion) but whose knowledge and experience isn't as much as people listening to them would think. It partly makes me laugh because they obviously have their own issues but also saddens me that there is obviously a NEED for knowledge but it's not always easy to find.

Oh well ... another grumpy old git!

[RodeoDreamer33]

Another pet-peeve, when people say that their horses need extra blankets because it's too cold or when they need more grain or they can't be with other horses because they'll get hurt.

This is when i really want to yell in their faces, THEY ARE HORSES!!!!!
IN THE WILD THEY DON"T HAVE BLANKETS OR GRAIN AND THEY DEAL WITH BEING AROUND OTHER HORSES!!!!!:mad:

[sweuzo]

agree totally with this thread... my riding school is very much 'old school', and the owner and other instructors are strict (in a good way) about the horses and with pupils... also if you fall of you have to get straight back on (if you can)...

they have a very good rep as far as i gather in the local area :)

[FRED]

I'm amazed that people withhold water and feed,havent seen that post thank G.
People mock 'natural horsemanship' and novice owners,but we all have to start somewhere.You can't beat working and helping out with good people and 'the quality teachers'.
I know for a fact with good help,advise and reading you can have a good,safe and responsible future with a young horse.
I can lead D anywhere off a lead rope,zig zag around the field,ask to stand etc etc,apply sensible pressure in all those 'hot' spots with out issue,we are now progressing to lead rope work and other important basic stuff{the basics are the most important start,and don't be fooled that basics are just 'basic'.
We don't use sticks or carry,whips,our work is patience and understanding,reward and rest.Catch him, he comes to call and not a carrott or treat in site,but he has a reward;)

[Levigal]

In response to this interesting thread, I have to speak up for the novices. Gobby put it nicely when she said:


i beleive you should be open minded, you can learn something new everyday whether you have been involved with horses 1 year or 50 years,
but without prejudice you could have had good advice, good instructor, but surely knowledge is built over several years and its unlimited.


It seems unfair to reference all novices as "scarey." A novice with practical sense who does his/her best to find a suitable horse is different from a novice who does not use common sense and purchases an unsuitable horse. Everyone does have to start out somewhere, and part of the pleasure in owning my horse is the new challenge and new opportunity to learn. Yes, of course I will make mistakes. But I did my best to find a mild mannered, well-trained horse. Novices can be smart people who take on a new adventure with sincerity and LEARN along the way, all the while making wise decisions about riding and horsemanship rather than sketchy decisions that put a person in trouble.

I think also there is a difference between the European riding/ownership experience and the USA experience. For example, there is no opportunity for me to attend a riding school where I live. There never was as a child either. People owned their horses, and the time I spent on horses was when I rode a friend's horse on trails.

I recently purchased my own horse as that is the way I can learn to be a better rider where I live. So, location and cultures plays a role I think. But, novice riders are not the most terrible thing out there. Many of us are fresh and new to the horse world and devote a lot of time to our horses for that reason.

[Clipperchuck]

Maybe we have so much access to information, access to qualified instructors, experts, Parelli, NH, EE, trainers, internet, clubs, societies, riding schools etc that the simplistic life has vanished in favour of an over regimented way of learning about horses.

I'm only 30 but when I was little it was ok to ride bareback on a busy main road without a hat :eek: yes it's hard to believe if you've come to riding in the last few years but I think that people were a lot less informed about the dangers even 15-20 years ago. Not just that but the height of riding protection was a (thinnish) hat with a single chinstrap (optional).

You learnt to ride by riding, you got better, went to local shows and you if you knew the right people you could find out about competing in XC or other 'big' stuff. Whereas now you get people who search for a horse on the internet, hire a transporter to deliver it to them, join a society online, buy everything they need online and turn up to a competition with all the gear on and expect to be able to do it.

[KarinUS]

The internet is not entirely evil. For me it has opened so many doors!
I've been volunteering for a horse refuge for the past 5 years. Where did I first learn about them? An event page on the internet!
Last year has been a great year for OH and I in regards to being able to attend really good clinics and seminars.
A lot of them I saw listed on the internet. It is through the internet that a lot of the get-togethers with our barefoot group are organized. It's a fantastic resource to get together and have access to experts at those trim days when we all meet up in the real world.
I would have missed out on so many 'real world' opportunities had it not been for the internet. The thing is so many times it's just a starting point.

[laura jeanne]

There's a question in Practical Horseman this month where someone rides a three-year-old 16hh TB and wonders why he "sucks back" at fences even though she uses spurs and a crop. Just from what I have read here on NR, I thought that she shouldn't be expecting a 3-year-old to jump. Thank goodness the answer pointed this out, comparing the horse to a 13-yer-old boy who shot up to 6 feet.

It scares me that horses are totally dependent on the owner they happen to get and have to live through it if the owner is cruel out of ignorance.

I was very upset last week when I found out the two horses (they are sisters) that OH and I like to take on trail rides had been sold (I wanted them). But when we went there to ride, I saw the two horses with their new owners, two teenage girls, and saw how happy the girls were riding out together, and I had to feel happy for them! Better the two girls than two old geezers who don't know anything much and don't have enough time to spend with them.

[Bay Mare]

The internet is not entirely evil. For me it has opened so many doors!

Crikey, not at all, that's not what I meant at all. I've learned a lot and being pointed in different directions because of the internet. I do think, though, that people need to be aware that not everyone is quite what they seem, I don't mean in a nasty way, but just that you have to be selective about the facts that you take from it.

With regards to novice owners I mean novice riders who go out and buy a horse with very little or no experience either in riding, horse care or stable management. It may work out for some but the law of averages says that it must on occasions, there are far more times when it doesn't work out, often to the detriment of the rider, the horse or both! I personally couldn't, however, ever advise a beginner to the horsey world to buy their own horse. Sorry if that wasn't clear from what I put :D I know that all new owners are novice owners, I was one (probably still am in the grand scheme of things :p ).

[Yann]

This thread started off berating people who don't listen to their horses or expect them to act like horses do, that's isn't confined to ignorant novices, there are plenty of experienced people around who fit that category:rolleyes:

[DavidH]

This thread started off berating people who don't listen to their horses or expect them to act like horses do, that's isn't confined to ignorant novices, there are plenty of experienced people around who fit that category:rolleyes:

But in that case i would question whether they are really experienced or rather have just been around horses a long time. There is a BIG difference ;)

[Mehitabel]

:waves walking stick in agreement with other grumpy old women:

[chev]

The internet is not entirely evil.

Echo that. It opens up a huge resource and access to people and knowledge we would never otherwise have had. It offers the opportunity to discuss ideas, and opens our minds to other possibilities and points of view.

But it is a bit of a double-edged sword; with so much information freely available, it also opens the door to book-rich people with little real-life experience tackling things they're not honestly ready for. I'm all for reading up on as much as possible; but I also think there is no substitute for actually being around horses. I know people who can quote extensively from Richard Maxwell or Kelly Marks, or Mark Rashid or Pat Parelli; but when it comes to putting that theory into practice they're stuffed; because they simply haven't had the chance to be with horses and learn from them directly.

I'd also clarify the use of the word 'novice' - it doesn't neccessarily mean someone new to horses at all. I've been around them for a long time, I'd class myself as pretty experienced with youngstock and suchlike; but when it comes to jumping I am without doubt a novice. In that respect, taking on a foal for me is no big deal; but taking on a Grade A showjumper and expecting to go competing this year would be madness. I know people who have ridden for years, who are very capable riders, but who've never handled a foal at all. They'd be as ill-advised to take on a foal without first getting some experience as I would be to go and buy that showjumper.

[Scarlett 001]

This thread started off berating people who don't listen to their horses or expect them to act like horses do, that's isn't confined to ignorant novices, there are plenty of experienced people around who fit that category:rolleyes:

I agree totally. Not sure at what point novices became a focal point of the thread, but I see plenty of people who are *not* novices, who do far more that worries me around horses.

I bought a horse as a novice rider (riding school for 2-3 years or so). I have not jeopardized my horse in any way in terms of care or riding - on the contrary he is thriving in my care. His previous owners were *way* more experienced than me, and yet this horse was skinny, unhealthy and unhappy when I purchased him (I know as I rode him as a riding school horse before I bought him). I have a complete and total respect for horses and I try to listen to him always - although of course there is learning curve with a new horse. I have my boy on full board and moreover I bought a more senior horse, and he is very easy to work with. Myself and my instructor have doted on him vigilantly through quite a few health concerns, and I know he is in good hands for riding training and daily care - he adores my instructor and stables manager.

I have seen a few posts that worry me on here - I usually just don't reply to them. Perhaps there is a time to speak up sometimes.

p.s. Just a note that full board is about the only type of horse board available in my part of the world. So by default most owners get a lot of help with their horse care, which is great for novice owners.

"for a first pony, the age of the rider and age of the pony should add up to a minimum of 21" - and while that didn't stop problems, its sensible advice.

Gosh, Skeeter and I are well into our 50's when you combine our ages. Oh my! :o :p

[KarinUS]

I agree totally. Not sure at what point novices became a focal point of the thread, but I see plenty of people who are *not* novices, who do far more that worries me around horses.
Totally agree. I think many mature novices are much more likely to question themselves and are willing to reevaluate and perhaps alter their approach rather than be stuck in a way.

I have seen a few posts that worry me on here - I usually just don't reply to them. Perhaps there is a time to speak up sometimes.
I do and try to word it nicely but then I always feel like some evil witch anyway, especially when everybody else seems to be totally fine with it. And then people get upset and say rude things. And get banned. And it's all my fault... :rolleyes:

by chev: But it is a bit of a double-edged sword;
Absolutely. That is true even for small communities like this board! I think I made one of my worst mistakes as a horse owner by following advice from here. And I also made some wonderful decision based on advice from here.
At this point I sort of evaluate the validity of any advice given based on what my 'resident experts' (aka horses) tell me and go from there.

[Barcie]

I am absolutely amazed by a website that is titled "new Rider" novice riders and owners have just been put down so much in this thread.

I am amazed that someone who is 17 can say that they know so much about horses that they can put down novice owners with such certainty. There are a lot of mature riders who view this site and by mature i mean over 30. I class myself as a novice owner am 37 have owned two horses when I was under 19 and had a gap and got back into riding and owning again.

Every horse is different and indeed can you apply the same techniques to the same horse.

I am amazed that some people posting on this thread have the audacity to patronise new riders and horse owners.

By way of example I have been in my professional job for over 10 years and still come across things I do not know. This site is about helping an encouraging people and not about asaying that novices cannot and should not be horse owners. The fact that novices ask questions show that they are not stupid and that they care.

[chev]

I'm not knocking novices, at all.

But I do think that an awful lot of people take on more than they can handle, and that it causes problems for both owner and horse.

It's not really about how novice someone is or isn't.

[KarinUS]

The fact that novices ask questions show that they are not stupid and that they care.

I can not speak for everybody but I got the impression that the critizism was mostly aimed at people that may ask questions but don't really care for an answer if it is anything other than 'you are doing fabulous'?
I can think of one post where a new owner mentioned her relationship with her new horse was getting worse. I thought I was being helpful when I suggested a few different approaches and a few ideas on how to evaluate and perhaps improve the situation. The new owner was very offended and got quite angry at the thought that her horse's behavior could improve, if she did a few things differently. She much rather blamed the horse and continued with the same things, getting the same poor results.
What's the point in asking for input if really all you want to hear is that you are doing great and are just cursed with a bad horse?

Of course I could be wrong and the experienced folks on here really can't stand us less-than-20 years-riding folks! ;)

[xXSundanceBayXx]

I am absolutely amazed by a website that is titled "new Rider" novice riders and owners have just been put down so much in this thread.

I am amazed that someone who is 17 can say that they know so much about horses that they can put down novice owners with such certainty. There are a lot of mature riders who view this site and by mature i mean over 30. I class myself as a novice owner am 37 have owned two horses when I was under 19 and had a gap and got back into riding and owning again.

Every horse is different and indeed can you apply the same techniques to the same horse.

I am amazed that some people posting on this thread have the audacity to patronise new riders and horse owners.

By way of example I have been in my professional job for over 10 years and still come across things I do not know. This site is about helping an encouraging people and not about asaying that novices cannot and should not be horse owners. The fact that novices ask questions show that they are not stupid and that they care.

Well said barcie. this site is for helping people not putting them down because of their lack of knowledge. i joined here because of the friendly advice people give when you need it. im not trying to cause offence but the people that ask want help and to learn, if they didnt why would they waste their own time typing out their question??

ps i agree with you too karinUS, there are occasional people who only post for a good response like 'oh youre doing real great' but most are asking for help and are very grateful for it. :)

[JOJOBA]

I agree with Karin - In one case that sticks in mind (because it irritated me) one person came online asking what kind of horse they, as a fairly young and inexperienced person, should buy - they were wanting to get a foal. We all said to buy an older more experienced horse, in fact LOTS of people came on, and ALL said the same thing.
The person then posted adverts for their foal, and once more we all said it was a bad idea, that they could get hurt, they could ruin the foal etc etc.
And then they went and bought the foal anyway.
So why exactly did they ask?

xxx

[Crazyhorse]

I think that there are a lot of people who ask for advice, but already have their mind up and just ignore the advice given. There was a recent example of a thread that ran into pages of advice, but every response was pretty much ignored, with the poster just wanting someone to agree that they should get a horse. New Rider is great as some people ask questions here that they wouldn't have the confidence to ask in " real life", surely that is a positive thing. I would much prefer to see simple questions from those wanting to learn than loads of postings from " experienced rider" posting pic after pic in effect showing off. I agree that a lot of the posts have really shot novices down. I am a novice, and proud! I had to wait until I was older enough to work before I could afford my old lessons and in the past five years have loved every step of the journey and am so willing to learn more, with the advice and help of professionals. Yes, I am sorry that I had to wait years to ride and did not grow up riding mad ponies and getting bucketfulls of experience, but that is the way the cookie crumbled!

People may at times take on more than they can handle, but isn't foresight a wonderful thing:D

[RachelEvent]

I am amazed that someone who is 17 can say that they know so much about horses that they can put down novice owners with such certainty.

Excuse ME Barcie, but the focus on novice owners was not one initiated by me. The title of my original post is "Horses are Horses" and was not really much to do with novices at all. We have all been complete novices, and we all are to some extent novices. As Chev mentions, we can be experienced in one area and know nothing about another, I am not experienced with breeding or youngstock but I know a fair amount about cross country riding for example.

My real intention for this thread, and actually a point which has barely been touched upon, is people's reactions when their horse does something horselike. I read so many threads, or see in real life, riders worried about their horse having done two bucks or similar, and they don't feel they can cope. Then when questioned further, and you find out that the horse hasn't been ridden for two days and has been stuck in the stable and the weather is bad, I don't see how they can expect their horses not to buck or to show some other kind of energy release.

It is oft written on this site that "Horses aren't machines" which is completely true, and its oft written that "Horses aren't people" but still you see both kind of attitudes across this board and across real life.

I have no problem with people asking questions, quite the reverse, it's a shame that enough questions aren't being asked.

Yes, I am truly worried by the number of novices owning horses - it's a prime way for horses to be spoilt, it's a prime way for people to lose their confidence. Novice is subjective, and I think what most people find out after leaving a riding school, are that those first few months make everyone feel like they are back to square one. I understand that in many cases people will buy a horse because the riding school no longer offers any route to progression, and thus I am not pointing blame at novice owners, but rather at a saftey blanket society which is preventing riding schools from teaching the grittier aspects of horse riding, and riding instructors who do not have that kind of knowledge themselves. What I am saying refers mainly to Britain, and a changing culture of equestrianism.

Trying to connect this disjunct topic of novices back to my original intentions for the thread - the main problem that arises with novice horseowners (bearing in mind that novice applies to us all on some counts, that it's subjective, and that we've all been there) is that when their horse starts to act in a typically horse-like manner, they can't neccessarily cope. They might not have had the instruction required to understand the difference between a horse misbehaving, a horse in high spirts and a horse in pain. Even the most experienced riders have trouble working these things out, but quick reactions are what prevent horses devloping bad habits, or health problems etc.

I come on to Newrider myself to learn about horses, but I learn most things about horses from horses themselves and in person from people who have spent a lifetime around them.

[JOJOBA]

I very much agree with everything you said Rachel. Especially about 'novice' being subjective. I know NOTHING about breeding, showjumping, competing, and a whole other list of things. However I do believe I might have some interesting points when it comes to things like schooling or problem solving, because it's all I do! Everyone on Newrider has something worthwhile to say, even if it's just 'yeah I made that mistake too'!
I love coming on here and Ive learnt so much from it - people should always ask for help, there's so many times Ive come on and whinged about things and had sympathy and advice.


xxx

[chev]

Especially about 'novice' being subjective.

Exactly. Every one of us could be called novice in one area or another; none of us have all-encompassing experience by any means.

[Scarlett 001]

I think many mature novices are much more likely to question themselves and are willing to reevaluate and perhaps alter their approach rather than be stuck in a way.

Indeed Karin, I agree. I think maturity in terms of attitude and willingness to learn and listen to horses are perhaps more important than novice or non-novice distinctions. Respect for the animal is also very important I think.

There are all sorts of crazy and often cruel contraptions and approaches out there for horse training and such that many very so-called experienced riders and novices use. Geez, some professionals use some methods I consider to be cruel. I don't think blundering or misguided novices take the prize for poor training abilities or horsemanship. Just because someone knows how to use what I consider to be a cruel or misguided training method the way it was intended, it is still unkind according to my beliefs.

[ajhainey]

Don't forget though, that forums like these distort...In the the 'old days' you only found out about people you knew personally - now a forum like this attracts everyone in the english speaking world who is having a problem with their horse or a mad idea they want to try. It makes it seem like everyone and their brother is buying foals to keep in the garden (ok, ok, not that but you know the kind of thing I mean), when in all probability this kind of thing is almost as rare as it ever was. The person that had a year or so of lessons, shared a horse for a couple of years then bought a safe and sane teenage allrounder from a friend who had outgrown it/their school/local well known dealer etc etc doesn't end up coming on here at all 9 times out of 10.

That said I do think the over complication and regulation of the sport is meaning most people buy earlier and with far less practical experience that perhaps was common, and as communities break down, and horses become less common, there is less backup available too, not everyone has a close horsey friend or relative to ask for advice or to help ease the transition from 'rider' to 'owner'. At many schools horses must be tacked up by stable hands, only ridden in the school and feet firmly in the stirrups at all times. In addition insurance and land costs mean lessons cost a lot of money. So to get 'horse time' and the resulting experiences that help you form realistic expectations, and decent horsemanship skills you have to get a horse of your own, but you don't know enough to handle one on your own when you get it - it's an interesting conundurum...

aj xx