Does Join-Up contradict lungeing (or vice-versa!)

[angelfben]

What do you think?

A bit of background.. my horse has so far been awarded the title of "most stubborn/difficult horse I have ever met" by everyone that has met him :o I love him to bits though, when he is motivated he is a superstar and he has bags of talent once you get past his tantrums and he works properly but the problem is that he has an extremely short attention span along with a very high opinion of himself.

When I got him he was very bargey and bolshy, he would nap and rear when you led him and literally walk right over you. I'm pleased to say he is now (almost) a perfect gentleman to handle and his ridden work and behaviour is improving by the day (a whole separate issue!) however, he is quite temperamental and has what I call 'brat phases' where he will be a total sweetheart for a while then will turn and become bolshy, nappy and foul tempered for a bit.. almost like he is testing you for dominance. Nothing extreme, but he will try his luck with napping and bargeing and turns from my lovely cuddly cheeky horse to a miserable, 'snappy' horse and is extremely dominant over my other horse with regards to food and space etc.

ANYWAY... I was considering doing a join-up with him during his most recent brat-phase to reassert a few things with him. I have done it with 2 of my other horses and it worked wonders on some trust and handling issues we were having with them.

My concern though is that at the moment I am lungeing him 1-2 times a week as the weather and daylight restricts riding, and I would like to continue lungeing him as I think it helps improve his way of going, balance, response to voice aids etc. and I want to start using a Pessoa on him when he is working better. However he is not (of course!) easy to lunge, he is extremely stubborn and I often have to be quite tough with him to get him to work on the lunge (voice and motion, I would never actually hit or whip him) otherwise he will quite happily stand there and take in the scenery (he has been known to stand there chewing the lunge line whilst someone made their best attempts at getting him to walk on :rolleyes: ) so he has to be 'chased' on at times... much to his unconcern of course!

So my worry really is if I perform join-up with him, will I then contradict this with lungeing and confuse and upset him? What do you think?

Thanks :)

[Yann]

This isn't a subject I'm well up on but from what I do know I think there is the potential to confuse, especially if he's not a very settled horse. On the one hand you're sending him out and allowing him back in and then you're sending him out and ignoring his requests to come in. Could you try long lining him for a while instead? You'd be able to work on all the things you want to other than use the pessoa for now and you'd avoid the confusion. I'm sure plenty of horses learn to tell the difference in the two situations after a while though. It might be worth getting a bit of advice from your local RA if you haven't already :)

[CMR]

Your body language should be different when lunging and when "joining-up" When you lunge, you send vibes to stay out on the circle, and when doing join-up you are very relaxed and neutral and asking him to come in. As long as you're sending clear signals it should be fine.

[intouch]

When we're starting a youngster we first lead in hand and teach "walk on" and "woah/halt" and turns on forehand/haunches, then when he has an idea about this, we will loose school in the round pen to teach trot & canter voice aids, and if the horse is happy to join up we encourage it - on our say so. Next he goes on long reins to connect voice and rein aids, then finally the lunge, and that includes short sessions with a Pessoa. When the commands are established on the lunge he is ready to be backed and ridden away.
So what I am saying is, the horse needs to be able to do all of these things and any that we start can pick it up inside 2 weeks. So long as the handler knows what they are doing, the horse is capable of a lot more than some people give them credit for!

[varkie]

I have done join up on my horses (don't use it any more), and my horses all lunge & long rein & free school. They don't struggle to tell the difference between the different things - HOWEVER - I am very confidant at all of these activities, so my body language is probably pretty clear to them, as to the differences that are required of them.

[domane]

Another who is not well up on join-up (but fascinated nonetheless!) - but I got the impression that join-up is "done" with no tack, or just a headcollar? If this is the case, then wouldn't your boy know the difference between joining up and lungeing as he would be wearing tack in one instance and not in the other? Or are they not bright enough to work that one out?

Just a thought.....

[cvb]

I seem to recall a recent similar thread ... my personal view is that its about being consistent.

I both lunge and "do" natural horsemanship games etc. Right now my horse will turn in and face me to stop when lunging. This is what she i asked to do when playing the games, so its just a consistent response. One of my next steps will be to work on this - but again being consistent in ALL my work.

My only concern about "join up" rather than simply liberty/round pen work is that join up is looking for something specific.....

Its a bit like asking "whats one plus one ?" If they give you the right answer, you need to ask a new question. This is as much a risk in anything we do - nh games, join up etc - but we, as owners/handlers, need to be clear both what question we are asking, and what answer we are looking for - AND be clear about that to the horse, so they know when they have given the right answer. If not, they get very confused and frustrated :o

Not that I am a Monty Roberts expert on anything...

but what will do you AFTER "join up" ?

[horse91]

on the lunge, you actually have him tied to you by a lunge rope, when in join-up, you dont have anything (such as a rope, etc) connected you and him.


correct me if im wrong.

[Levigal]

I have been doing both of these activities with my horse (lunging and join up). I've been told that join up has a different purpose...Levi has no gear on during join up and we end each session doing some NH games. I've also been advised not to worry about gaits and voice commands during join up. It is about body language and driving/releasing and attention.

When I lunge, I work on gaits and transitions between gaits and stopping. My horse is very good on voice commands, but I'm actually trying to do less of these because I notice that if I talk while I'm riding, he thinks he should be doing something. Often he will stop if I sneeze!

My question is, how often should a person do the join up? I don't want to bore my horse or get him tired of working, but because he is in a stall this winter, I feel obligated to exercise him when I cannot ride.

[cvb]

:confused:

but join up isn't the only thing you can do in a round pen or at liberty ?? Why limit yourself ? why not explore a little ?

Riding was limited over christmas cos of the weather - we had ice rink conditions everywhere and "earth stood hard as iron"...

but yesterday morning we took two of them for a walk round one of the stubble fields. OK thats on-line, but we could still play a little, depending on the going. Mum has a new pony so was simply working on leading, and trotting up. I just went with her with Fi for company (and a leg stretch :D) and we through in a few Parelli games along the way :cool:

I normally loose jump at some stage - but not on a frozen arena :( or loose school (ditto).

[harryhorse11]

I lunge and free school, my horse understands my every command due to the same voice commands, and he follows me round the school when asked, not sure if that's join up but it works!

[Tootsie4U]

How does a horse know the difference between simply leading him to and fro and regular style lunging? He's wearing the same tack, you're leading him by a big long line. So many similarities.

How does a horse know the difference between a cue to turn right and a half halt on the outside rein that happens to also be the right rein? So many similarities.

How does a horse know the difference between the canter cue (outside leg back, inside by the girth) and the leg aids for haunches in/out? So many similarities.

My point is; the horse is smarter than you think he is. Its the very subtle differences that we convey to them via our body language that makes a task unique. As long as you are able to make your body language very obvious in each exercise, he should be able to differentiate between the two. He'll benefit from the variety of his exercise. Give it a go!

[harryhorse11]

I totally agree give it a go I'd never done anything like this with Harry and expected it to be a total waste of time, but i've now found a way of working my horse properly if I'm short of time! no tack to get out, all I really have to do is pick his feet out and off we go! because I believe in using my voice to school, I guess he understands what i'm asking by my tone, I go up a tone for higher gaits i.e trrrrrrrrrrot going from quiet to higher pitch and steaaaaaaaady in a much quieter low pitch, to be honest I think I could say any word as long as it was the right pitch:D