Evading the bit by opening the mouth

[Casey76]

When I first got Pinto he would evande the bit by opening his mouth really wide. after looking in his mouth and seeing how little room he had in there i switched his bit from a eggbutt snaffle to a fullcheek french link and put a flash on him. The flash is loose enough for me to get a good 2 fingers in, and was meant to be a reminder and not used to 'tie his mouth shut'.

At first all was well, and he accepted his new bit really nicely and relaxed into it. Now though, we havent had an opportunity to do any 'schooing' for weeks, due to the lack of school and the fields being boggy, so all we've been doing is hacking, and he is getting stronger and stronger, and has started to evade the bit again by opening his mouth (which with the flash is about 2ins).

I don't really want to tighten the flash any further, but I can't have him faffing and fighting all the time either as we do a lot of roadwork on the equivalent of single carriage A roads (70kph).

I was thinking of either changing his noseband to a drop, to add a bit nose pressure (but they are really difficult to get hold of), or maybe changing his bit to a hanging cheek/filet baucher, or try a new mouthpiece like a JP (curved).

What do you think? (Apart from schooling... I know, but it's a problem at the moment - though things may change in the near future - but that's a whole other story ;))

[Lgd]

If he has a really fleshy tongue and low palate, he may find a hanging cheek easier to cope with. Another possibility is a neue schule/KK type double jointed bit that has a lozenge rather than the flat french link. You can also get them in different thicknesses - go for a 14mm one. I now use a Schulung snaffle for both the girls. The link is concave on the tongue side and convex on the palate side to make it comfier and less bulky for the horse.

[sassy210605]

id try a crank nose band

[Casey76]

Sassy, why would you try a crank noseband? Any noseband, no matter what it's called, should be fastened snugly, but you should still be able to fit at least 1 finger between the tack and the horses face.

Just because a 'crank' noseband makes it easy to over tighten, it doesn't mean to say you should. Anyway any plain cavesson noseband ('cranks' included), fitted correctly, shouldn't have much influence on the horse opening it's mouth, as it sits too high up.

[cvb]

Casey

My old guy - now retired - was strong and liked to go fast :D As such we had similar dilemma to you - yes schooling was key, but in the winter when that was less easy, or when we were on a pleasure ride or Xc, what to do ?

When I originally got him, he was in a gag snaffle with a drop noseband and a running martingale. Gag kept his head up, martingale kept it down, noseband stopped him objecting :rolleyes:

This was because he apparently had a habit of being ok in a bit for a month or so and then just starting to ignore it :o

With schooling and lots of work, we got this down to a snaffle for dressage, and something like a kimblewick or bubble-bit (but with one rein) for faster work. And then I went to Uni and he was sold. Six years later he came back. And it was almost back to square one. More schooling, a million or so half-halts,...

but this time he had COPD, so the noseband was an issue. So for times when breaks were an issue, I had him in a bubble bit with TWO reins... and NO noseband... and for 90% of the time I only used the snaffle bit rein. 9% of the time I needed the other rein, on the middle ring. And 1% of the time he did his own thing :rolleyes:

Yes he still crossed his jaws in that 1% problem time. But the point was that when I took away the flash, it really didn't make things that much worse. It was more of a moral support for me than something working on him.

Thing is you need to have the confidence that you'll be ok - cos if not you are likely to have too much contact and the pair of you will pull on each other - which is not what you need :(

One of the things I found useful in my situation was to be very very clear about aids and release. Don;t just go "slowslowslowslowslowslowslowslowslow" etc - after a while he WILL stop listening. Instead your aids need to say
"slow"
"I said SLOW!"
"OI !!! SLOW!!"

and also "good, you went slow"

very very clear and obvious half-halts followed by a release. As soon as he starts off again, half-halt again, repeat repeat repeat. yes this is schooling - but its the kind of schooling you can do on a hack :) I also did leg yield across pathways and back, to make him work and focus on me rather than focus on the far off distance and getting there as quickly as possible !

it takes a LOT of focus from the rider, and the courage to do the release.

BTW I think the bubble bit suited my chap partly as they tend to have quite a thin mouthpiece and are loose ring. In his last stage of riding he was in a french link loose ring and no noseband, and we were fine :D

[Wobblydeb]

I ride a school horse who has a similar evasion technique - head goes up and the mouth opens when he wants his own way :rolleyes: Recently the RI has changed his bit to a ported type that has a poll action, and he is going noticeably better :) I don't know the name of the bit, but I will look it up later for you. It's something to ponder over, if nothing else :)

[Casey76]

Ahhhhh... confidence! Hmmm... now where did I put that? *looks under the bed* :p

Seriously though, I do know what you are saying, I just need to put it into practice ;) Today I tried giving him a long release when I was trying to slow him down in walk... no dice.

I'm going to start clicker training him, as he has also picked up an awful habit of not standing still after mounting, and although he is probably picking up on my apprehension (I still don't *really* enjoy hacking), he needs to learn how to stand still... and this is something which has always been a problem.

[Tootsie4U]

Try the JP. Bonfire used to open his mouth alot too until I tried that bit. They're not expensive so if it doesnt help it wont hurt your pocket too much.

"Today I tried giving him a long release when I was trying to slow him down in walk... no dice."

A release is a reward. You offer it to him *after* he's slowed, not while you're trying to get him to slow.

How is he when you ask him to give to the bit? Ie. if you're mounted and ask him to flex on one side back to your boot (you're halted, btw!)? What would his reaction be?

[cvb]

Echo Tootsie

The point of the release after the half-halt is that at that precise moment he is slowed (by the half-halt) so you're saying "THIS gets you a loose rein" ... but anything else gets you a request to slow down ;)

You have to be very consistent with it, and not get angry - its called the "broken record" approach in management ;)

[Casey76]

thanks for all your replies :)

Pinto doesn't really understand the concept of the half-halt, at least not in the way I was taught to ride them (still through the lower back, close with the thighs, inside leg on and check down the outside rein), and he still forgets sometimes that 'leg on' doesn't always mean 'speed up' *sighs over not having a schooling space again*

So... when we were out walking today, I was out with 2 others, P and Harve who I normally go out with and T and Carlo. T is a complete novice rider, (though a bit of a natural :mad: :p ) - which is why were were only walking. On the homeward bound section of the forest track Pinto overtook Harve, which caused a few problems (Harve doesn't like being second), so to slow down I first asked by being still through my body (stop riding), and closing my thighs. When that didn't work, I tried a gentle check down the outside rein making soothing noises at the same time. In the end a full halt (sit deep, deep exhalation, close thighs, and even backward rein pressure) with a 'stand' command had us at a standstil for about 2 seconds. At which point I gave the rein, to which Pintos response was to go off as fast as ever :rolleyes:

Tootsie, if I asked him to give to the bit laterally I would spend a lot of time going round in circles. Although he's pretty good at carrot stretches, ridden he is very stiff. If I ever get in an enclosed space I would work with him in a knotted rope halter, to teach him to flex, as I have found in the past deep lateral flexion to each side whilst mounted relaxes the horse and gets their attention back on you.

Most of his past life involved walking around the roads and running in the fields, so I'm sure it will be fun and games the first time I take him in an indoor school. All those things which i found deadly boring whilst having formal lessons (halt at every letter, walk 6 trot 6 etc) I'm *dying* to do again:D

[Tootsie4U]

Two quick tips that will help you help him - and no school is needed.

For the half halt: Use your own post (rise to the trot) to slow him until he is able to put two and two together. Forget the other aids for now until he learns to follow your seat. If he's going too fast, slow your rise. He'll match it. Its somewhat of a conditioned AND automatic response - no teaching required. Maybe at first he'll go hollow on you because he's confused, but he'll get it. Once he's tuned into your seat well enough, gradually introduce the more conventional aids for the half halt.

To get him to not spin when doing the lateral flexion: REMEMBER THE CONCEPT OF THE RELEASE! Ask for the flexion and continue to ask until he flexes AND stands still. Do not release him (reward him) until he can do both. If you dont time your release this way, he has no idea that you dont want him to spin. At first you need to be lightning quick with the release. The first few times you'll need to reward him the split second you feel him even think about stopping spinning. In NH terms, this is called 'a feel'.

[cvb]

Pinto doesn't really understand the concept of the half-halt, at least not in the way I was taught to ride them

so then you need to help him understand - teach him it ;) and from below you have a good start....

so to slow down I first asked by being still through my body (stop riding), and closing my thighs. When that didn't work, I tried a gentle check down the outside rein making soothing noises at the same time. In the end a full halt (sit deep, deep exhalation, close thighs, and even backward rein pressure) with a 'stand' command had us at a standstil for about 2 seconds.

Ok - so this is the "please go slow" ... "I said SLOW"... "OI SLOW !!" process I mentioned. Clear, consistent.

At which point I gave the rein, to which Pintos response was to go off as fast as ever :rolleyes:

and thats where you need to ask again...and again.. and again. But always start with the "please" version, as thats what you want to end up with ;)

Yes its a pain - and you need sympathetic people out with you who will go alonmg and "help" you by riding as you need them to at the time (i.e. not get too far ahead so the horse panics).

Tootsie, if I asked him to give to the bit laterally I would spend a lot of time going round in circles. Although he's pretty good at carrot stretches, ridden he is very stiff.

Mark Rashid gets the rider to put their hand to their thigh - that way the release is automatic when the horse gives to it. Again this is hard when riding out - but how about doing a carrot stretch each way from the ground before you get on, and then when on immediately ask for a yield while still in the yard. The more times you ask the faster he'll learn - I seem to remember Harry Hobbs counting his yields in thousands before he figured a horse would know it !


and you say

he still forgets sometimes that 'leg on' doesn't always mean 'speed up' *sighs over not having a schooling space again*

well you can build this in as well. Asking for a step over with the hind legs will slow him up - but you're going to need to ask him to slow first or, as you said, he'll just interpret it as he always has.... so you can say "slow - step over" rather than just "slow" (once he's got the basic "slow" thing !). Initially he's likely to try going forward rather than over, so it may turn into "slow-over", "I said SLOW (and over)" so he remembers what slow means...

slow-over-forward repeated turns into leg yield without a lot of effort :D