View Full Version : Black or Smokey black?
17th Jan 2006, 01:52 PM
Daffy is registered as black, and he is. Except wait, black obviously isn't just black anymore, there's smokey black too. :rolleyes:
From what I understand, smokey black comes from a creme gene acting on a black base, and may leave the coat with a red tinge, but is that the only distinguishable difference?
I assume the creme gene is recessive and that it comes from a dun or buckskin or palomino?
In which case Daffy has a dun (3 generations back) and two palominos (3 and 4 generations back) on his dams side, and a palomino (4 generations back) on his Sires side. I can do you a copy of his entire colour breeding if you want. :)
Daffy has a red tinge to his coat, and now I'm curious to find out whether he's black or new black :p
17th Jan 2006, 02:08 PM
What colour are his eyes if horse is smokey black they can have teal green eyes.
Mates mare went to burnt buckskin stallion she is a bay arab/pony and had a stunning smokey black filly with teal green eyes.
17th Jan 2006, 02:38 PM
I have asked a similar question on here somewhere and it had to do with the colour of the fur inside the ears. In smokey blacks it will usually be a lighter buff kind of colour, but in a true black it should be completely black.
Hope that helps some!
17th Jan 2006, 03:50 PM
The red tinge *can* be from sunfade - but if there are lots of duns and palominos in the pedigree your horse could be a smokey black.
and Nott has cream fluff in her ears...
You really need Chev to explain...
17th Jan 2006, 09:16 PM
Looks as black as the rest of him to me? That photo was taken in October 2004, so he was darkening up after bleaching in the summer. :)
17th Jan 2006, 10:00 PM
Well I just re-read your initial post and he can't be a smokey black unless one of his parents was a palomino, buckskin or smokey black. Cremello dilutions can not skip a generation as they only require one Cremello gene to be expressed, so if he had palomino in his lineage but his parents aren't dilute then the gene was not passed on.
The only complication there is if one of his parents was a smokey black and was incorrectly identified as being a black in which case he could potentially be a dilute.
18th Jan 2006, 10:08 AM
Shiny is right - at least one parent has to have carried cream for him to be smoky black. So the parent would have to be buckskin, palomino, smoky black, smoky cream, cremello or perlino for that to happen.
An awful lot of blacks bleach in the sun; Monty has a black Welsh filly who goes so light in summer she is almost bay to look at. She's not; she is black, but her coat bleaches. She bleached so much last year that she makes your lad look like coal! It doesn't mean a horse is anything other than plain black, particularly; just that they are 'fading' black.
There are also some fading blacks who are in fact brown - they test positive for the agouti gene, even though they look nothing like a bay or seal brown most of the time. A test for agouti is the only ay to identify some of them.
If the coat grows in black when he changes from summer to winter coat and winter to summer, it's highly unlikely he's anything more than a black horse that fades. These pictures show my black filly, whose coat bleached out to a lovely 'smoky black' shade. She is not smoky black; she has no cream gene at all. You can see in one of the pics how light her coat got, and how black the new coat grew in.
Blod in her original black coat;
Bleached out to a nice 'smoky black'!
And back to black....
18th Jan 2006, 12:23 PM
Well, Daffy's dam is black, his grandsire is black, and his granddam is black out of a dun and a palomino.
Complicated or what :rolleyes:
Still, given the colour of his ear fluff, I think he's just a fader, in which case he'll be very lightly rugged over the summer. :)
23rd Jan 2006, 02:23 AM
If his dam was registered wrong he could be a smokey black. The only way you'll ever know for sure is to get him colour tested or breed him to a non dilute mare. Now I am assuming he is gelded so unless you want to pay for colour testing just for interests sake then you may just have to keep wondering :(
You cannot tell visually black from smokey black as the cream gene does not work on black. It is called incomplete dominant if its there and there is red in the coat it will always express. But it doesnt show on black.
Also as an aside dun is a completely different gene from the cream gene- buckskin and dun is not the same :D but they are often mixed and can even be registered wrong even with colour registries! makes tracing colour through breeding difficult.
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