poor doer and just chaff?

[No_Angel]

i forgot to make the sugarbeet the night before last, so the horses just had chaff last night.
normally maddie just tips over her bucket with the night feed and eats bits of it, or will eat her hay. last night i gave her a scoop of chaff and she ate it all:eek: every single bit, iver never seen her bucket so clean, so i took her hay in and fetched her another scoop of chaff, and she left her hay and just ate the chaff, after she finished that i took her another scoop before i left and she ate that with her carrot.
im gobsmacked!

so my question is, can a poor dooer of a tb live on just chaff? im thinking of giving her a scoop at first then another and another, so she gets plently of it, but its special because its not all in the same bucket:p
shes on alfa a at the moment, i was thinking of changing her over to alfa a oil after ive finished the bag shes got now.

[Mehitabel]

fibre feeding can wok wonders for poor doers, so it could be worth a go. you'd need a fair amount of it though, to make up the calories. perhaps also sneak a balancer like topspec in there?

[shaiarabians]

chaff alone definately not. it wont survive.

I work on 24/7 hay and/or pasture then suppliment once to twice a day 2 very small supplimented feeds(soaked barley/oats - home made mineral suppliment)

I would say that your horse dislikes the beet and has only just tolerated eating the little she has I would be changing you goodies and not going just chaff.

liesl

[nutkin]

Chaff has more or less no goodness in it.It is used to bulk out a feed and slow down the speed a horse eats at. Alfa A or Alpha oil would be better as they have better feed value. If the horse is a poor doer then I would be inclined to ensure they have ad lib hay and feed a mix such as build up along side the sugarbeet.TB's are rarely good doers who can go through winter without some sort of hard feed.

[Mehitabel]

i don't agree at all that she won't survive on just chaff, or a fibre-based feeding regime.

have a read of this topic from saddle-up, about forage feeding. you will have to feed a lot more volume if you are going just fibre, but if she likes it and it suits her then your poor doer problems may disappear.

http://www.saddle-up.org.uk/forums/index.php?showtopic=118169

[eventerbabe]

if maddie likes chaff then i don't see any reason not to base her feeding program on that. there are so many different types of chaff, some with more energy than others (particularly alfa-a). its far better she eats a whole fibre feed than picks at a feed she doesn't like. you could always chuck in some fibremix by Dengie. its alpha-a based so she may well like that too :)

[No_Angel]

ive just had a look at the fibremix, i think the compliment would do us, but if im going that route i prob give her a handfull or so of senior conditioing mix.

she gets a joint supplement at the moment, and i think im going to get some apple cider vinegar for her, and a pro-biotic for her.

how much chaff would she need?

[amandal]

My mare's a good doer and is fed chaff with a couple of mugs of Baileys lo-cal balancer and some cod liver oil and fruit/veg if I've got any - if she starts to drop weight when she's in work I add some sugar beet. She also has adlib hay and is out as long as there's daylight. She's ID/conn, 15.2 - she was on chaff and spillers cool mix but is much calmer on this, her hooves have also improved quality since she's been fed the balancer.

[No_Angel]

right, maddie is out all day from 9 till about 8 at night, she gets hay if its frosty, but other than that gets 2 wedges at night.
she was on conditioning cubes which she stopped eating, same thing with the sugarbeet. oil seems to make her loose.

[eventerbabe]

if you are feeding the fibremix PLUS chaff (which is how i do it) then you shouldn't need the conditioning mix aswell i don't think :confused: the fibremix has a probiotic in it (dengie XP) aswell :)

try filling in the dengie feed consultation form. they then get back to you with a suggested feeding plan.

[No_Angel]

i was thinking i might feed the conditioing mix instead of the fibremix, as its got all that stuff in it and glucosamine, plus i think its probably cheaper.

just filled in the form, will see what they say:)

[No_Angel]

my god that was quick:eek:

here is what they said

Thank you for visiting the Dengie website. From the information that you have given us it seems that Madams Walk is a little underweight and needs to improve her condition. I hope that the following feeding advice, which includes reference to suitable feeds in the Dengie range, will help.

Improving the condition of an underweight horse or pony is all about achieving a balance between energy intake via feed (including grazing and hay) and energy used during daily life. But before looking to your feed for the answer, you should always check with your vet that your horse or pony is healthy. For improved condition, energy intake must be greater than energy expenditure. However, avoid sudden increases in feed, as weight gain needs to be achieved slowly to prevent excitability. Appropriate exercise will increase muscle tone and help improve body shape and topline.

Good quality hay or haylage is very important for this type of horse or pony as is a good quality Fibre Feed such as Alfa-A Original or Alfa-A Oil.

Top Tips
- Always provide adequate quantities of quality hay or haylage.
- For fussy horses or those with a limited appetite try offering a choice of forages, such as a hay, haylage and a suitable hay-replacer such as Dengie Hi-Fi Senior.
- Dengie recommend a bucket feed that combines digestible fibre e.g. Dengie Alfa-A Oil with a medium energy feed such as Dengie ‘Extra’ or Dengie ‘Senior’ for the older horse.
- If you prefer to use Fibre Feeds only Alfa-Beet is ideal.
- Try using a probiotic supplement e.g. Dengie XP Triple Action to help Madams Walk 'use' her feed more effectively.
- Always feed 'little and often' with 2 or 3 small meals being better than 1 large one.
- Weight gain must be achieved slowly, to avoid excitability.
- Monitor Madams Walk weight weekly using a weigh tape.

Suitable Feeds

Dengie Alfa-A Oil
- Highest energy feed in Dengie's Fibre Range (12.5MJ/kg).
- Equivalent energy to a conditioning mix.
- Alfalfa based Fibre Feed.
- Provides 'slow release energy', so ideal for weight gain without fizz.
- Can be used instead of a mix particularly for fizzy horses.
- Ideal for maintaining good condition.

Dengie Alfa-A Original
- Alfalfa with a light molasses coating (9MJ/kg).
- Provides 'slow release energy'.
- Similar energy level to a pasture mix or low energy cube.

Dengie ‘Extra’/ ‘Senior’ Fibremix
- Medium energy coarse mix (11.5MJ/kg).
- Dengie ‘Senior’ - ideal for older horse, containing XP Triple Action.
- Dengie ‘Extra’ - an ideal conditioning feed, containing XP Yeast.
- Provides a balance of fibre and cereal.
- Whole oat free.
- With XP Yeast.
- Less than 23% total starch.

Dengie Alfa-Beet
- Medium energy Fibre Feed (10.5MJ/kg).
- Ideal for weight gain without over-exuberance.
- 50:50 mix of Alfalfa and sugar beet.
- Unmolassed.
- High in fibre, low in sugars and starch.
- Short soak time (3 hours).

For resting horses or those that become 'fizzy' when fed cereals, try using Alfa-A Oil or Alfa-A Original combined with Alfa-Beet to provide 'extra calories'. This will supply 'slow release' energy from fibre and oil for improved condition. Dengie Optimum should be fed with this combination to 'balance' the ration.

For horses or ponies in work, one of the Alfa-A range can be combined with Dengie ‘Extra’ or ‘Senior’ (for older animals) to provide a balance of fibre and cereal based energy sources for improved condition.

Where good quality hay is in short supply, Hi-Fi Senior can be used as a replacement on a weight for weight basis ensuring good quality all the year around.

All horses and ponies are individuals and the actual amount of feed may need to be adjusted up or down depending on the following factors:

- The nutritional quality of your hay
- The nutritional quality and availability of your grazing which will change dramatically throughout the year
- Madams Walk's individual ability to 'utilise' her feed.
- The level of work being done
- The type and quantity of other feeds used in the ration.

Remember that if you feed below the recommended amount of a mix or cube, you will need to 'top up' the levels of vitamins and minerals in the diet by adding for example Dengie Optimum.

When making any alteration to your horse or pony's diet, remember to do so gradually over 5-7 days. Feeding Dengie's probiotic containing supplement XP Triple Action can help avoid potential digestive problems during dietary change.

We hope the above information will help you decide on an appropriate diet for Madams Walk. Feeding guides for the products mentioned can be found on our web site. However, if you have any particular feeding problems or require more specific advice, please contact our Feedline on 0845 345 5115.

Kind regards

Vicky Hitcham, BSc (Hons)
Nutritionist for Dengie Horse Feeds

[Jessey]

Try it, my boy was getting alfa a, plus cool mix, plus equilibra (balancer) plus oil and various other stuff, he was having 3 houe buckets full a day pluse adlib haylage (over a bale a day) and he was skinny with bones sticking out all over (ribs, hips etc) he now gets nearly no hard feed. He is out 7-6 daily and gets adlib hay at night plus a double handful of ossi-chaff and a single handful of alfa a and he is a big fat porkey!! we do have better grass where we are now but he is a different horse without the hard feed and is looking really well on it. Oh he's arab x Tb.

J x

[Gabrielle]

Does she like mollichop with mollasses in?

[No_Angel]

i dont use mollassed chaff. i usually just buy one big bag of chaff and use it on all 4 of them, but maddie has been having her own alfa a.
shes fizzy as it is, so im not sure anything highly molassed will do her any good.

[Pink's lady]

Having just skimmed over the other replies, yes, of course she can live on just chaff. ;) as long as it's good quality. Most horses love sugarbeet, but it's not unheard of not to.

Did you try her on Alfa-A oil? if they say it's the highest energy, she should be fine, but not if it's makes her loose.

Personally I'd have her on a large amount of high energy fibre , with some mix hidden in it (maybe just a scoop of conditioning cubes, or senior). Axle was very elderly and a poor doer and ALL she got was a huge amount of Alfa-A senior, since she couldn't manage hay (teeth were bad). If Maddie's in at night, I'd give her a large bucketful, to pick at all night, possibly split into a couple of buckets around the stable so it doesn't looks so much as to put her off.

And I wouldn't bother with mollassed chaff. The reason they molasses it is because it's such poor quality the horses wouldn't eat ot otherwise ;)

[Anna**]

Sorry No Angel i might just be hijacking your thread here but im very interested in all this and not very knowledgeable on feeding side of things. I feed my boy on mollassed Mollichop, ive noticed before quite a few people are against this, is this coz of fizziness? And whats the difference with Alfa A?

Sorry to show my complete ignorance!

[Mehitabel]

molassed chaff is coated in sugar - molasess are a bit like treacle, or golden syrup. sugar is not a natural feed for a horse, they don't digest it as well, and also it can send them loony, just like it can for children. it can also be low feed value, since it is disguised with the sugar - like ready meals using poor ingredients and jazzing them up with salt and MSG.

alfa-a is made of alfalfa, as opposed to hay and straw which molichaff is made of, and that is higher feed value - more nutritious.

[Anna**]

Thanks so much for explaning that to me Mehitabel, i was embarrassed to ask but im glad i have and now that makes much more sense to me. I think i may just have a look at alfa-a, sounds a lot better for him.

[Mehitabel]

alfa-a can be a bit rocket fuel though, so be aware if you don't need more energy. there are plenty of chaff-based non-molassed alternatives - happy hoof is one, then you also have good-doer by dengie, hifi and hifi lite as well.

[No_Angel]

my toher 3 love the good-dooer, its like hi fi lite but has mint flavouring, maddie seems to like it aswell:D

[BecknSkye]

I added cider vinegar to my poor-doers diet six weeks ago and he just hasn't stopped eating(and gaining condition!!!)! It used to be a struggle to get him to finish one feed a day and now he's licking his bowl clean after three. I give about 40mls in each feed. His feeds are a 50/50 mix of lucerne chaff(alfalfa, I think you call it) and a high performance feed called Mitavite Munga, but I don't think you can get it where you are anyway.
His feeds weigh three pounds.
He also gets molasses, that's what his feeds are dampened with. I put a cup of molasses in half a litre of hot water to dilute it, then mix that in his feed. Is this bad for him? I've been told molasses is quite fattening, so I thought it would be good for hiim.

[leno289]

hi - i also have a tb who not not a good dooer but has maintained her weight exceptionaaly well this year -she is fed on Alph A oil and Alpha beet -no other feeds apart from adlib hay. She is fed 2 x daily - alpha oil only in the morning and this with alpha beet in the evenings -as i say she is looking extrmely well amd suffereing ni ill effects of not having a "hard" feed - Alpha A has not made her anymore hyper or changed her outlook in any way - i will certainly continue just using the above - the other thing with it is that if you any reason you cant ride you dont have to start cutting down on the "hard" feed - just feed as normal