can anyone help

[sukiesu]

i have a 4 year old mare who upto now has been a gem to tack up(OTHER THAN THE BIT BEENING PUT IN ). We toke her out yesterday and tacked her up, she moves about a bit, but we have put this down to still beening a baby.
today we took her out took her rug off had our usaul fight about having the bit put in, but we always get there in the end, but as i tried doing the girth up she eyed me up and cow kicked, luckily i managed to jump out of the way, but she really frightened me. I managed to get girth done up ( even if it was with me on one side of the gate and her on the other) crops come in very handy to grab girth through a gate. once on board she was ok, like i siad she is still a bit green, but at the end of an hour and a half flat work around the field, it was time to untack, not a problem really but as soon as i started puting rug back on she looked at me again as if to say come any closer and i will do it, i managed to get the rug done up cus my daughter feed her carrots and apples to keep her busy, but she really frightened me and im not sure i will be able to go through with this every time we want to ride, she is my daughters pony and i dont want her to think im frightened as it will put her off her. she is a realy sweet pony and like i said has only done this today. any ideas?

[Propaganda]

If its the first time she's done it maybe she's just having an off day. However, if it continues, and even if it doesn't it wouldn't be a bad idea.

Get your horse desensitized to everything, plastic bags tied to her headstall, ropes flopping around and between her legs, tarps on her back, coloured buckets rolling around on the ground etc.

However, if she is challenging you, rather than being genuinely spooked by something, then thats another thing all together. Play the touching game with her: Pet her somewhere she likes, slowly moving to somewhere she doesn't like being touched, if she gets upset with it, back off a bit and slowly make your way back there.

The thing i've found with young horses (i have a 3yo TB im currently backing and training) is that you can not let them win. Ever. Stick with something until you see even the smallest step in the right direction then reward them with a nice rub on their itchy spot and some kind words.

Goodluck, let us know how you go :)

[RodeoDreamer33]

I don't really have time for a long post, maybe will later but I did want to say one thing! Don't back away from her or jump out of the way or feel threatened from her. That is exactly what she wants. She is trying to be dominant of you. There is a lesson pony at our barn who is QUITE a grouch when be brushed with the little kids, but these kids are also scared of her and walk up slowly too her, brush her slowly, talk to her and tell her its ok as they're aproaching.:rolleyes: If she was scared, it would be one thing but shes not, she knows that they're scared of her and feel threatened and she likes it:p However, when I brush her, if she evern goes to pick up her leg to cow kick i pick my leg up quicker and kick her one on the but or over her hip on that side. Just like a dominant horse would, I try and tell her, O know don't you dare come over here to me like that! If she pins her ears I dont mind, i just totally ignore her. But, if she goes to nip i quickly throw my elbow out towards her head. It usually never makes contact, but if i were to actually elbow her once, it would be her own darn fault for coming that close. Usually just a quick tss of teh arm though is enough for her head to go in the opposite direction. OOPS, that was a little longer than planned:o
Anyways, let me know how it goes and i can help you some more!

[CMR]

Perhaps she is trying to tell you something? Have you had her back, teeth, and everything else checked? Perhaps she doesn't like the type of bit you have her in. If she has a really short mouth even a very plain bit might hurt her. Short mouthed horses tend to be hard to fit a bit for, and they usually do better bitless. Sometimes young horses are trying to tell you that they are still too young to be ridden and that you are doing damage to them. They know that if you ride them often you will cause them future pain, so they do anything they can to keep you off. She is still young(horses don't mature till around six).

[domane]

I would suggest making the bit taste nice - a dab of toothpaste, a blob of honey or marmite (you'll have fun finding out which is her favourite!!) they're always good distractions for getting the bit in.

Would also suggest having sessions of just quiet, calm and gentle tacking up and untacking.... rather than actually getting her out and doing some work, just get her used to her tack being moved around her head and body. Put her saddle on and off, do her girth up loosely and then take it off and start again. Gradually get her used to things like stirrups banging around her sides reins flapping round her face, all things that COULD happen and make her spook.

Same with the rug.... lots of encouraging words, treats and lots of putting ons and removals, sliding it around..... but not too long a session as she is young and her attention span will be short. But lots of praise!!!

It'll be boring for you, but as long as it's all done calmly, with lots of praise, I reckon over time she will settle down. Just don't let her see you're scared!!! :D

[Giveitago]

Sounds as if she is saying No with Capital letters. I would definately get some professional help. Without being there and watching exactly how you and her are doing things it's really difficult to recommend anything. I would stop what you are doing until you can have another opinion. Do you have an experienced friend who could just come over and watch from the sidelines, they may notice something that's within your usual routine that might be the cause.

Look for other issues, feed, turn out etc, if these things are not to her liking she will not be in a relaxed state of mind to work.

Yep, and check the tack, back, feet etc.

Don't push too hard at the mo, take a step back and reassess or you'll have her like this or worse for a long time.

Hope this helps.

[sukiesu]

thank you for all your replies is nice to know people are still willing to help.
i have a happy mouth bit on her and its suppose to taste like apples mind u i had a chew.. before she got her mouth on it mind u lol ..and i didnt think it did but it said it did. she is going to the stables in the next few weeks to be schooled, had a chat with instructor this morning and she said she will check her out then , been to the dentist in last 3 weeks so its not that she had her feet done 2 weks ago so its not that, and she is wearing the same tack she has worn for the last 4 months, R I recons she is just trying it on, like some of u have mentioned, so im off up there tomorrow just to give her a brush down and put the saddle on and off a few times see how she responds.
will let u all know how i get on tomorrow. x

[fimonkey]

Hi Sukiesu.

Your problem seems almost identicle to the one I had and posted about on here last week. See my post titled Stroppy Mare - how to deal with it. . There were some good suggestions there but in the end what's worked for me was actually having a friend come out and SHOW me how to react when she kicked.

Good luck

xf

[Ross]

As she's a youngster, one and a half hours flat work sounds an awful lot to me - to be honest, it's a lot anyway, if she's doing any sort of work. Are you sure she isn't just associating being tacked up with having to work hard? Don't forget, at 4 she's still immature and hasn't finished growing.

I would get her back and teeth checked, but also try just taking her for some fun for a bit, so that she doesn't automatically think being tacked up is bad news.. Not quite the same problem, but when we were having loading difficulties with Fire, we made sure that every time he went in a trailer he did something he enjoyed (cross country, pleasure rides etc.) and not the boring stuff (lessons, dressage etc. :)) and after a while, he got over the problems and we could go back to normal...

Ross

[Tangle]

and she is wearing the same tack she has worn for the last 4 months
Could well no longer fit and she's trying to tell you "it HURTS" (speaking from experience, our wretched mare currently needs her saddle refitting every 4 to 6 weeks :rolleyes: - good job we love her :p)

At 4 she'll still be growing - bones as well as muscle - so she may well have changed shape in 4 months.....

[sukiesu]

thanks again for all your posts, we dont just work her hard for an hour and a half, i meant we ride her for about that amount of time, we tack up go for a bit of a hack and then have a trot and canter across a field, so she isnt asked to keep going around a school, she is atually just having fun around a field, i know she is young and yeh i will get her saddle checked just in case its that, as i said before her teeth have been checked and her feet are done every 6 weeks without fail so its not either, went to see her today she seems ok, didnt really have the nerve to try and tack her up so i just gave her loads of cuddles and apples lol
will try again tomorrow, with friend in toe.

[Tangle]

Just re-read previous post - didn't mean it to come over so abruptly :o

Good luck for tomorrow :)

[GEORGE2]

Hi there

I've got a three year old and he was beginning to buck when asked for canter so i've had his saddle checked and it was too small even though its a wide fit and now, we have no bucking at all. Don't you think that one and a half hours riding is a bit long for such a young animal, don't get me wrong, perhaps i'm just soft but i try not to over do things and take things really slow just exercising for around half an hour. Perhaps she is associating the tack with hard work and trying to get out of it. After all there not daft:D

[KateWooten]

Is this the same daughter's pony you mentioned in another thread - the pony is only 4, and was evading the bit, so you strapped her mouth shut with a tight noseband and that cured the problem ? I'm a bit slow, and I only just made that connection.

I believe that either you or your daughter needs to take on board the role of trainer for this horse. One of you needs to realise that when you write that your daughter fed her treats in order to get basic maintenance done on this horse - you're telling us that you haven't yet studied how horses learn. This little horse will learn to respect you as its leader when you figure out how to move it's feet, and that bribing will only work in the very short term. There are many, many simple exercises you can do that will re-address the balance of this relationship, and encourage this little horse to have trust and confidence in you. A lot of people here can help explain those exercises to you. But first, you need a change in mindset. From 'dealing with one problem' you need to look at the horse as a whole, and accept that you need to become its trainer, and invest quite a bit of time in learning what that entails.

For example : you should know not to be struggling with the bridle on this horse. Stop battling every ride, stop accepting that as 'just the way she is'. Stop thinking of riding her as the end game of every session. Spend the next week sorting out the bridling problem. Break it down into tiny steps. Use this exercise to develop your 'release timing' that is, for example when you enter her stall with the bridle she turns towards you, good, pet her, release. Hold the bridle up, she touches it, good, pet her, repease. etc etc Takes maybe 4 sessions to get her dropping her head, for the bridle, and opening her mouth for the bit.

Time, the will to do it, and 'release timing'. You need all three with a young horse.

[casey]

i have a 4 year old mare who upto now has been a gem to tack up(OTHER THAN THE BIT BEENING PUT IN ). We toke her out yesterday and tacked her up, she moves about a bit, but we have put this down to still beening a baby.

Right 1st thing there. Personally, I never excuse my youngsters behaviour, simply because they're young.
I will NOT tolerate bad bahaviour from a foal to a 30 year old. It is not done!
Granted, certain aspects have to be taken into account when schooling/hacking etc. But never bad manners. Abslolutly a big no, no.
I am by no means advocating smacking her. But clear consistant handling will do the trick.

I gather by your post, you are quite new to all this. I would highly suggest to call a trainer in, to assess both your handling skills and that of your daughters. To get lessons on handling and buy a book on horse behaviour.

I really dont mean to sound patronising, which can unfortunately come accross in posts like these. But I have seen many a horse go completly awary by good intensions. Get help, get assessed and get that youngster on the road to being a good horse.

Good luck:)

[sukiesu]

im very grateful for all the help i can get, im new to having ponys yeh as u can tell, have had a sec d for about 12 months and she has spoilt us cus she is such a gem in every way. On the other hand the sec c is quiet a challenge, i dont think the wocester nose band is harsh, i suppose it can be if u do it up rather tight, but i asked around first before buying and my r i said they were great so thats why i bought one. They r said to be a very gentle way of stopping the pony ivading the bit.
she is going to be schooled in middle of feb but would be grateful if youwould give me some tips on how to start the bridle work as 2 weeks seems a while away just to leave her alone doing nothing and thinking 'hem this is ok ive won she dont want to bother me anymore'

[eml]

From your posts it seems that you and your daughter are both inexperienced and this is not the best combination with a young fairly newly backed pony.

I think there are several issues here. I gather from your posts the pony was only backed recently so I really do think that asking her to work for 1 1/2 hours is a lot. You may think she is 'just' hacking but that is still learning and work to such a young pony. What else do you do with the pony apart from riding.

She will be developing rapidly and her mouth will be changing all the time. A 'happy mouth' is not comfortable for all horses, many youngsters may be better in something like a full cheek french link. The fact you had issues putting the bit in gives you the clue here, The worcester noseband and its close relation the kineton utilise nose pressure to stop as well as strengthening the upward action of the bit. Neither good in a pony that may well be effectively 'teething'

I think what has happened is that for any reason the pony has said no to you over the saddle, either because it is uncomfortable or because it was just fed up at that moment. Having discovered that you then treated it with carrots etc ( I know you did it for distraction) being such a young pony it has formed an association in its mind that ...I kick out owner rewards me! That is the start of a dangerous downward spiral.

You really need to get on top of this problem now. Section C/D ponies are often sharp, strong and get worse as they mature, often going into teenager misbehaviour at 6/7

I am sorry if this sounds like lecture (too used to teaching students!) but sadly I see too many ponies that start off this way and become hooligans that no one wants.

I can only repeat what others have said...do not just carry on, get experienced help quickly. Ironically the pony may well be better off turned away for two weeks than finding more ways to control you.

Sorry this is so long!!!

[KateWooten]

ah, sukiesu, now it sounds like everyone's getting at you. I'm sorry, I was being harsh with you in the last post, and you are only trying to learn, so I promise not to be snappy at you again.

OK, you are getting help from a trainer - that's great. I hope the trainer works with you and your girl, not just the horse. You can learn so much about how to handle the horse in everyday things, just by watching someone more experienced.

For now, I would stop riding the pony. One time with my youngster last year, he was so good and so amiable, that I was starting on canter leads .. then he quit. I had oushed him too far. All he got for his good efforts was more and more work. Give her the benefit of the doubt and a bit of a break from work while you sort things out.

Stop giving her any treats at all from your hand. You can still give the same amount of apples and carrots when she's good - just add them to her evening feed instead.

You need to do some groundwork with her. Do you have access to a small paddock, arena, roundpen, barn aisle ? Somewhere you can work with her in a safe, but not too small area ?

I would work first on leading her. When you are taught to lead a horse, they say to keep the horse's head at you shoulder. I didn't know this, but that is exactly the positioning in horse language that means that she is superior to you !!! Now, I lead my horse with her head always behind my leading arm. That way, I am superior to her. If she gets too close, I ask her to back up 5 steps. I walk on, and she walks on too (if not, the lead goes tight and puts pressure on her halter). When I stop, she has to stop - else she has to back up 5 steps again. This is the start of getting the horse to respect you.

Try this exercise and tell us how it goes - is she pushy ? Does she crowd you ? Do you have to ever pull on the leadrope ? Does she back up easily for you ? Does she pay attention to you ? These area all vital clues as to what she thinks of you as a leader.

Kate

[Jessey]

Sounds like you have got your hands full :)
I would agree, maybe she has been a bit overfaced, 1 1/2 hours is a long time for a young un' That can be too much for some older horses ;)
I would start over, talk to your dentist and see what he thinks about a suitable bit, he should be able to advise you on the shape of her mouth and the most suitable bit for her.
I would then definatly get the saddle checked, 4 months in work will have changed her muscles alot, she should have built far more up along her top line etc and she may have changed shape with the seasons too, so it is wholey possible its started pinching or something. May also be worth checking your girth, I made a huge difference to mine to have an elastic grith, halved all the dancing and pratting about.

Once you have that straight, start slowly, try to just show her that it doesn't hurt or mean hard work, I still do this now with my nearly 8 year old as he is still so babyish in so many ways. Occasionally I just tack up, then untack or tack up, lead him to the place I normally work him then untack, just so he doesn't always expect to work when the tack goes on.

I'm sure working with the trainer will help too, to give you both confidence.

Good Luck

J x

[sukiesu]

thanks yet again for all your help, god im spending more time on this site than with the kids and horses lol anyway gonna take advice and take her for a nice walk on lead rein weekend and leave all the hard work to the instructer, we really love this pony and dont want to part with her, one of the reasons in buying. I was told when we bought the pony we would have to keep riding her cus she was so young and she would forget, think im now gonna kill the person who said it cus ive frozen my butt off all winter spending hours with her, never mind just thought i was doing the right thing.
Also friend came up today and looked at her im obsessed with her at the mo worried its more than meets the eye, he took her rug off no problem so i thought yeh great its just me, but when he tried to put it back on, one back leg was fine but again she picked the other leg up as if too kick, she didnt kick him just threatened, he picked her feet out she was fine with that, so he said maybe ive caught her leg in the rugs leg strap when i did it up last time, and she remembers pain from it, im not sure but gonna stick to a nice leasurly walk with lead rein and see how it goes.
thanks again for all your help will let u know how she is going soon.

[Ross]

I think most of us can sympathise with suddenly finding out that the advice we've been given wasn't good, and that by following it thinking we're doing the right thing we've ended up making things worse :) I certainly can.

Looking on the bright side, you're going to get the help you need from the trainer - try and get the trainer to work with you too, so that you can learn at least the basics of the techniques he's using, to help you carry on.

Probably the most important thing to learn from this is that if things change, and suddenly go bad on you, you need to seek advice and help.

Hope the walks go well - try and stay calm and relaxed, and talk to her. I used to discuss the news, the books I'd read, the weather - anything really - with my youngster. It's quite satisfying, as they don't often disagree :) It also helps keep you relaxed and helps build a bond between you. When I first had mine, I couldn't handle him or groom him, and I used to sit and read things to him so that he got used to my voice when I wasn't doing anything with him - then gradually I used to forget the book and just talk and brush a little bit... and eventually we became very close.

Good luck :)

Ross

[sukiesu]

thought ild let u all know pony now in safe hands of RI and she is doing well, she has had saddle checked, bridle checked, back checked and teeth checked yet again as she has them done a few weeks ago, anyway all is ok and apparently she is just beening a brat,(GETS IT FROM MY DAUGHTER, GIRLS HEY) no problem getting her bridle on anymore, she makes it look so easy. still a little bit nappy thought so she is working on that, she went well in school tuesday and wednesday, she hacked out thursday and was a good girl well other than thinking ok ive gone far enough so im going back, but she went all the way with a bit of help from RI, daughter rode her in lesson and we where the first to take her over the poles which didnt bother her, she never spoked at anything on the hack, so RI said after a few weeks she should be fine, we r keeping our fingers crossed. Keep u informed and updated when i have more to tell.

[KateWooten]

Hey that's great news, I'm really pleased for you three ! Sounds just about perfect, since you and your daughter can get a good idea of how well her pony can behave and then you all can carry that on for yourselves - well done - isn't it fun when you can see everything getting better :)

[sukiesu]

thanks kate for all your advice much needed by not green pony as much as green owners, will keep u posted as and when we have updates.