FEI decides that Rollkur is acceptable

[Skyhuntress]

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/competitionnews/388/73961.html

What are your thoughts?

[Shadowlark]

HAHAH quite the can of worms you are opening with that one ;) I love a good brawl!

Now I rein instead of doing dressage I LOVE the sport I did do dressage obvisouly when I evented as a teenager - but that was more so a lets see if we can muddle through this and not lose to many points or cause to much laughter. I was gifted with an excellent coach she was old with a thick THICK accent hair in the tight bun.. hahah she was SO sterotypical. She was MEAN to us.. NASTY I will never forget her first day with the 4 of us on our 4 arabs. She walked up and down the line looking at our horses.. then started to strip em NAKID.. We were allowed snaffle bridles, a saddle and a girth (no stirrups!!) We were not skilled enough in her books to be allowed ANYTHING but the basics and we had earn anything else back.. or so she said. Instead we earned some amazing scores using the lightest equipment possible. Now fast forward about 15 years.. to my first reining lesson.. old cowboy wrikled face the whole thing.. He walks in.. walks up and down the line of horses and you got it.. starts stripping off the crap!!! Snaffles and saddles kids that's it although he allowed us to have spurs (encouraged actually for clarity of signal not for abusing as he says) This time I was dressed right he took nothing off my boy phew!! two different worlds.. same philosophy!

But I am rambling again.. what I really wanted to ilustrate is the difference between dressage's idea of collection, and Reining's idea of collection - in both cases a horse works well within a frame with round back is supple and works with a smooth flowing grace. However in reining you will never see any contact with a bit. So to a reiner - the average dressage horse is by definition overflexed and a grand prix horse is WAY overflexed. and thier riders are screwing up thier horses.. what are they thinking?? how can a horse work like that???

I am not defending rolukur it isn't for me at all - just adding the twist of perspective on it. I think like the FEI says.. in the wrong hands you can really make a mess of a horse.. but isn't that true of anything?

[casey]

I dont know enough about it to comment:rolleyes::D

[chev]

Not my cup of tea really... but like anything, can be useful used responsibley and devastating if abused.

Difficult call for the FEI to make really. The thing that worries me is the use of the term 'skilled riders'.... who exactly makes that judgement?!

Interestingly, just recently there was another article in H&H asking if dressage was perhaps leaning more towards over-exaggerated, artificial looking movement in horses, rather than simple, free movements. It offered a selection of pictures taken over many years that illustrated that trend. If that really is a concern, I can't see that allowing rollkur is really going to address that issue.

But then, I'm no dressage rider!

[horseygal90]

Not a dressage rider, but something that worried me (like Chev) was - Who is exactly is a skilled trainer/rider? And who is there to say that someone is/isn't? Where is the line drawn - Is it just Grand Prix standard riders etc. that are allowed this?

Anyway, an observation.

[Skyhuntress]

I think that's the main problem. Who sets the standard for 'skilled' rider? I've seen a couple of grand prix riders who I wouldn't trust with my horse whatsoever, yet these people are apparently 'skilled' and 'talented'

I AM a dressage rider and I can see why people are starting to question what dressage has become. Personally, alot of times I find the horses move nicer in Training Level then they do in 3rd level competitions, simply because they arent' overbent or overflexed. Training level is just asking the horse for a nice level of movement and a nice submission in the neck and poll area instead of this massive bend in their necks.

Dunno. But I'm sure that this will continue for a long time.

[chev]

The H&H article questioned the level of elevation horses are expected to achieve as well; certainly a lot of the horses they pictured did not look to be moving with naturally elevated paces, but rather with exaggerated movement (especially in extension, and piaffe) that was very showy in some ways but didn't look to be a true representation of the horse's movement. Almost too expressive - in some ways the expression is lost in a sort of showmanship instead.

That seems to be reflected in the type of horse preferred for dressage now too. Some of the simplicity of dressage has been lost; I do think that's a shame. (I like simple things ;) )

[Bay Mare]

I'm generally anti Rolkur anyway (in it's 'winch the head right in for most of the warm up' use) but what worries me the most is that even if only 'suitable' people are seen doing it at shows what about those who are less suitable, see their idols doing it and want to have a go at home? Why are we in such a hurry to achieve an outline these days? (I know, money). Why are we losing the beauty of classical riding in favour of the 'manufactured' movement of the current dressage horses? I love dressage, think that it's a great sport but I would hate to see it come down to who has the biggest horse with the most exaggerated paced. I love WBs, I wanted a WB, but have actually realised that seeing an Iberian horse or a Lipizzaner in action for me is MUCH more beautiful.

[KateWooten]

I wholeheartedly second (or third) that ! I've lost count of the number of times I've heard someone say they'd love to start dressage lessons, but they can't afford a 'suitable horse' !!! As if only an expensive warmblood can 'do dressage'. Whatever happened to the idea of dressage as training any horse at all to improve his movement and carriage ? I'd rather see someone's backyard pony take an inch-long step in the right direction than an expensive warmblood prancing badly. It's a different mindset I guess - I think it's probably worse here in the US. Certainly when I was in UK 20 years ago, it was perfectly normal for anyone to take their any-old horse along and show at whatever level dressage just for the sheer joy of learning. Probably that's all gone in UK too now has it ?

[Bay Mare]

Certainly when I was in UK 20 years ago, it was perfectly normal for anyone to take their any-old horse along and show at whatever level dressage just for the sheer joy of learning. Probably that's all gone in UK too now has it ?

Not completely but it's certainly edging that way. At the lower levels there's certainly an 'all comers' attitude still in most places but it's definitely more diffficult to compete at higher levels on anything less a manufactured, humungous, extravagent warmblood. What is worse is that good riding/way of going is being marked under the extravagent paces even at the junior levels. I have seen riders with see-saw hands being placed over more sensitive riders. Horses that are winched in to a false outline coming about those who are working more correctly but slightly ahead of the vertical. Even at the unaffil levels they don't always seem to recognise a 'prelim' outline and will mark horses down for not working in a more advanced outline.

[shaiarabians]

I have seen xrays of a horses neck that was abused into the same shape as the
rolkur using draw reins. I would personally be interested to see some xrays of those poor babies.

hmmmmmm
Liesl

[Stella2]

I think this is very sad news and I wonder if taking on the top European riders was just too big of a task! Its all well and fine talking about it not being a concern in 'skilled hands', but the poeple implied have huge vested interests in rapid results and vested interest impairs judgement. This is why vested interests must be declared in public life (law, psychology, medicine etc) and professionals must step back from a case and hand it over if there might be a vested interest!

Its depressing that we will inevitably move even further away from classical dressage now :(

[teabiscuit]

don't like it, i just have an instinctive feeling that its a nasty thing to do to your horse, though i'm no expert and i don't want to be either if thats where it leads you.:mad:

[Est]

Stella2 may well have a point - there are some big names in the middle of this issue. By mentioning "skilled riders" the FEI has neatly avoided either truly endorsing or condemning it.
This week's H&H mentions rapping showjumpers - in 1979 the BSJA responded to a newspaper's investigation into rapping by saying that in the hands of "a professional" (there's that get-out clause again), it would do no harm. There were some big names involved there, too. It took them until 1990 to finally condemn it as it deserved.
Personally I can't stand the practice of rollkur and believe it causes measurable physiological harm whether the rider is "skilled" or not. But putting aside my personal views, my problem with the FEI decision is that I don't believe for a minute that they have really taken a comprehensive and unbiased look at it with the intention of condemning it if that proved to be the right course of action. That was never on the cards. I'd feel a whole lot more comfortable accepting their decision if I could believe it had been made because they truly believed rollkur to be an acceptable practice rather than it simply being an expedient decision in the present dressage climate.

[hackedoff]

my problem with the FEI decision is that I don't believe for a minute that they have really taken a comprehensive and unbiased look at it with the intention of condemning it if that proved to be the right course of action. That was never on the cards. I'd feel a whole lot more comfortable accepting their decision if I could believe it had been made because they truly believed rollkur to be an acceptable practice rather than it simply being an expedient decision in the present dressage climate.
Amen to that.
I think we have to ask ourselves whose pressure is the FEI likely to bow to.