Working correctly..just to be provocative

[eml]

I agree with I suspect most of you here that to work correctly the horse must: work forward, have lateral flexion and finally have longitudinal flexion.

A long time ago, probably before most of you were born I was taught that as riders we have a responsibility to create movement as good as the horse has at liberty.

How many horses at liberty work with their head anywhere near let alone behind the vertical

I told you it was provocative........ as they say in exams discuss

[Pink's lady]

But to be fair, they're not being expected to carry a huge weight on their back when at liberty ;). Which negates the need for them to lift and strenghten their back muscles, which is what we're trying to acheive when asking for 'correct' way of going.

[No_Angel]

ive noticed that my cob does work sort of corretly when hes being silly, he does it in the field quiet alot.

[Colorado Sunset]

I would disagree, yes horses dont wonder around with their heads tucked in, but many stallions, and mares do it to 'show off'.

I tried to find some pics off google just to illustrate and had a bit of difficulty (yes I just stole it :rolleyes: sorry!). Now this is not a wild horse, but look at the degree of bend in his neck and the spring in his stride.

http://www.classicaldressage.com/horses/images/wild/wild2004-020.jpg

Jo

[Skyhuntress]

Actually, I find a vast majority of horses work near the vertical freely, so I can't comment on your observations. Particularily stallions, but that could be because of the extra thick crest. I remember in Horse Illustrated they posted an article saying that nearly all horses SHOULD be able to travel close to the vertical when free schooling if asked for enough impulsion, particularily at the trot.

Even as foals, both of mine, while not 'perfectly' on the vertical were pretty darn close and the stud colt in particular loved nothing more then to arch his neck and prance around for the ladies.

[Colorado Sunset]

ooh, I found some of a real horse :p just a riding school pony from Poland that I ride at.

http://www.galeria-konie.webpark.pl/sk68.jpg

Not quite on the vertical, but near enough and nice engagement too! :D

Jo

[KateWooten]

I have to try to get a picture of my young saddlebred x arabian mare working in the round pen at liberty. When I used to work with her, she was all strung out, hollow, nose high .. just recently I've figured out how to get her attention (no tricks - it's just that I'm really new at round-pen work, or anything much with young horses, so it's taken a while, and a demo from a far better trainer working with my mare to show me what I'm looking for) Anyway, here's the amazing thing - when I have her full attention, when we're really working together ... she really does arch her neck, put all the spring into her hind end - she stops shuffling round trying to figure out what else is going on in the world and trying to escape ... only when I am the center of her world does she go into thisi incredibly graceful movement, but when she's there, I swear, face is vertical, back end steps under - she's visibly shorter front-to-back and she just has so much energy - you know how sometimes young arabs will passage around showing off- well she's like that but with her nose dropped.

Hmmm, ok, I know nobody's going to believe all that - I'll have to go figure out how to get her to do it with a camera in one hand ...

[Bay Mare]

I want the grey :D Drool ......

Saff looks like an advanced dressage horse when she's showing off or is spooked over something. Pity we don't replicate that when she's got my fat butt on her back :(

[Casey76]

You also have to take into consideration the conformation of the horse. Pinto is very thick through the throat, and he has less than 3 fingers of space between the point of the jaw and the atlas/axis (can't remember which:rolleyes: )

I was very surprised to see him doing this:
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y108/oconnka4/DSCF0187b.jpg
in the field, but I doubt whether he could get any more vertically flexed without compromising something physically.

[larri]

No technically at liberty as had her in a lunging cavesson (can't free school on our lunging area as there is no fence!)
But on Sunday Safi was all airy fairy and did the most beautiful cadenced passage and we kept it for a few circuits as I clicked her on. She was holding herself in a totally correct "outline" the entire time - looked stunning! :D

[Jessey]

Here is Bo on sunday, not bad???

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y291/Jessey129/General/RobandBo2.jpg

We aim to get the animal to work in the strongest way possible, just because they are happy to slough about the field alot of the time doesn't mean its the best thing for them.

J x

[chev]

So is it just my lot that hooley around with their noses on the horizontal rather than the vertical when let loose then?!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v231/bronyfelin-ponies/happydot-3.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v231/bronyfelin-ponies/prettyLili.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v231/bronyfelin-ponies/Tiacanter.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v231/bronyfelin-ponies/lilicanter2.jpg

Hmm....

[Casey76]

No way chev... Pinto looks like:

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y108/oconnka4/DSCF0189b.jpg

Most of the time :rolleyes:

[KateWooten]

Nope - mine too ...
http://www.damonwooten.com/ponies/pictures/galloping.jpg

but just occasionally (haven't caught her out in the field when I have a camera on me ) she does this ...

http://www.damonwooten.com/ponies/pictures/chuck/RosieListening.jpg

[Jessey]

Oh no, here he is 10 seconds later -
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y291/Jessey129/General/RobandBo3.jpg
He does the nose poking pleanty, but when they get pumped and bounce along, they normally tuck their nose, if they are unsure or spooked the head will normally come up to get their eyes as mobile as possible to see a predator, but when the see it and tank off (using max power) it often tucks to allow them to get the power from the back end :)

[jUmPingIsLifE]

autumn is round a good 80% of the time i have noticed when playing. i have a great pic of him cantering thats gorgous but i cant find it, must be on the computer at home. only when he is running flat out or sometimes when he isn't feeling like it i guess does he not really run around with his nose in.

both my moms horse annabelle and tahoe tend to do it a little bit too. mostly when they first push off and their first 3-8 strides are so powerful and springy i see them round. they usually lose it as they lose energy but when they are really feeling "high" they tend to keep it longer.

just proves you dont need to see saw and pull on reins to acheive anything.

however when it comes to riding annabelle is the only one who really goes right round without a fuss, tahoe is getting better and better but he is still opinionated about how he he should be allowed to go when riden (he pefers the barley moving, head up high look)

[Bay Mare]

So is it just my lot that hooley around with their noses on the horizontal rather than the vertical when let loose then?!

Not at all, mine looks gorgeous when she's showing off but she isn't always showing off ....

[happy highlande]

When yours are 'hooleying' around they are moving like endurance horses - running fast and forward.
I have never seen an edurance horse with its noses only 10% in front of the vertical. -
Dressage and SJ are gymnastic 'showing off' and when a horse does this free it often has it's nose within 10-15% of the vertical (OK Arabs can be the exception - but Arab dressage tends to look different too)

Pinots flexion looks fine - I wouldn't expect him to have his nose furhter in than that when ridden and he could probably go far in dressage if he moves like that under saddle. I have a late-gelded Highland with teh worlds thickest neck - and he can flex correctly when he stretches the top of his neck and reaches into the contact - he can even go behind the vertical - but not with my blessing!!!! (he gets a swift remender to go forward)

In true exam spirit, my conclusion is that horses will move with their noses near the vertical when free, but that no horse should be expected to carry its nose behind the vertical - free or ridden.

[eml]

Ok since I started it I do have video of my now sadly deceased favourite horse ( in avatar) showing off around the field in a stunning nose just in front of the vertical extended trot which I hope I reproduced occassionally.

[Wally]

Is it right that a horse, with weight on his back, should behave the same at liberty?

....another can of worms!
:D :D

[eml]

Big can of worms Wally but shouldn't we try to inconvenience our horse as little as possible. If you sit in balance with a light seat shouldn't your horse feel able to move naturally.

By the way lady who taught me would now be in her 60/70's and was a racehorse/PTP/SJ rider with red hair and temper to match but a true horsewoman//....now there is an old fashioned concept.

[Wally]

Yes, I totally agree, Couldn't agree more that that is what one should strive for, a horse able to move with as much freedom as if you wern't there....BUT, how many ballerinas could do the whole of Swan Lake burdened with a 35kg pack with as much grace as without?

I agree we should try and it is a meritable goal, but how many horses and riders can get to this Nirvanah?

The fact that we sit on their backs or put them between shafts will have an effect on their way of going. A horse in the shafts cannot move with the same freedom as a horse at liberty, but, he can, arguably, move with more freedom than a ridden horse....but in a different way....if you see what I am getting at. :) ;) ;) A horse in singles will have a different way of going than a pair.....but he cannot aspire to liberty as he has man's burden to bear.

It is up to man to make sure his burden is as easy to carry or bear as is possible.

[eml]

My computer skills are nil but I want to quote Wally

'It is up to man to make sure his burden is as easy to carry or bear as is possible.'

I take a simple view when teaching that children must try to get their pony to put its ears forward ie relaxed. When I ride I strive to get my horse to react to minor movements of my weight/legs/hands so that I am the conductor of the orchestra but the horse plays the tune

I think that is the same as looking for free movemrnt

[chev]

The way I see it, is that at liberty, although teh ponies in the pics I posted are not working 'in an outline' that we would hope to have under saddle, they are all using themselves properly and look balanced and free.

If you photoshopped a rider onto their backs they would not look balanced. They could not carry themselves that way with weight on their backs and be balanced.

When we ride, the horse then has to learn how to carry himself in order to counterbalance that weight. I know some riders ride lighter than others but there is no rider who does not physically add weight to a horse.

So the differences we see are the result of horse and rider working together to achieve a new balance... and when the horse is happy and comfortable, his ears and demeanor will reflect that.

My ponies still have that length and freedom of stride once they achieve that balance. It could be said they don't move naturally, in that the carriage seen in those pics is altered; but I also carry myself differently in the saddle to when I'm not riding. It's a compromise, I guess. But my aim would be to interfere as little as possible with a horse's natural gaits when working under saddle.

[happy highlande]

My highland decided he wanted to work the same under saddle as at liberty today - he fancied bucking every time he cantered and galloping whenever possible!!! Not sure that is what eml and wally meant - but it was an interesting hack!!!!

[eriskaypony]

Not sure whether this can be classed as 'at liberty' but this is Rannoch on the lunge

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e311/eriskayponies/Rannoch20on20Lunge201720Dec2005.jpg

He has an extremely thick neck and I wouldn't want him bending any more than he is in the pic. He does this when showing off in the field and when he needs a 'power trot' to get to his tea :D !

At most other times Rannoch prefers his head to be in this position when at liberty :D

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e311/eriskayponies/00f62614.jpg

[Dina]

When Chunky is showing off he will quite often run around like this,
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v245/DehydratedRat/Chunky/CopyofImage076.jpg
Don't know how veritcal he is carrying his head in this one but he still looks quite impressive,
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v245/DehydratedRat/Chunky/Image2178.jpg
And look at Timba,the horse in the back in this pic,I would say her head is about vertical,
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v245/DehydratedRat/Chunky/Image173copy.jpg

[Styric]

You may enjoy this:

http://sustainabledressage.com/collection/natural.php

It's a discussion on exactly this subject.

[Whatanejit]

Thx Styric - I found that v. interesting. Will need to print it off to get through it but the animated bits are really good.

xx

[varkie]

Well, this is my mare free schooling - she will carry herself like this for most of the time.

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b393/varkie013/Tia/DSCF0049.jpg

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b393/varkie013/Tia/DSCF0075a.jpg

[carthorse]

If mine's having a tank round the field he is usually very close to vertical & far more engaged than when he's ridden - but then he needs to be for the spectacular leaps, bucks & spins that he feels are an essential part of his morning work out! When he gets too excited I have even seen him behind the vertical in the field for a short while, this is normally when he's throwing the front end around & trying to get the others to play not eat :p