Novice horse..novice rider..3 ring gag...

[gordysgirl]

sorry this is a bit of long one..

A friend of mine (returning to horses after a 30yr break) purchased a pretty welsh section d mare last year. she's 10 years old, but was only broken at 6 and then turned away. basically she has pretty much done nothing.
me and another friend did some work with her last year and although very very green (as expected), she seemed to remember the basics she had been taught. she could be difficult (some napping) but i personally feel that was down to insecurity and being unsure of what was being asked.

the problem is the owner then did nothing with her for 4 months. until now that is, when she has suddenly decided that she wants to get her sorted. she has had a 'professional' come and look at her and have a ride, who after half an hour has decided that the mare wants putting in a standing martingale and 3 ring gag to stop her from snatching and to make her listen!!

surely they should not even be riding her yet, if it was me i would go right back to the start with her. she struggles to cope with a few minutes on the lunge let alone an hour with someone on her back. i would have thought she needs to be re taught everything if there is a hope of making a decent horse out of her.

surely putting a novice rider and novice horse with a gag is asking for trouble?!

am i mad?! should i say something? or let them make their own mistakes? i just worry about what will happen to the mare.

what do you think?

sorry long post!:)

[Tangle]

Tricky :(

I'm inclined to agree with you (treat the mare like a baby and start again from the ground), but if she has confidence in this "professional" then telling her that without offending her may not be possible.

So I guess it comes down to a decision on your part: do you think you can talk to her about this without jepoardising your friendship?

If you want some more information on gag bits have a look on Sustainable Dressage (http://www.sustainabledressage.net/tack/bridle.php#pessoa) - there's a huge amount of data there on how and why bits work and why the author does or doesn't like them. It does seem daft that a dutch gag and running martingale is such a popular combination at the moment: why use a bit that asks the horse to lift it's head, and then add a martingale to stop it lifting it's head... :confused:

Good luck in a tough situation.

[claire hodgson]

cannot but agree with you. although would also be inclined to think that novice horse with novice rider isn't necessarily the best combinationg going. But three ring gag? WITH standing martingale? Ouch, poor horse! Rather you than me; diplomacy isn't my strong suit ......

[gordysgirl]

I think I'm going to have to back off on this one. Our relationship has been turbulent to say the least recently. Its just that this professional has only met the horse once and it just seems a strange conclusion! I guess I'll just have to wait and see.
I think what frustrates me most is that everyone else on the yard seems to think shes marvellous and hasnt batted an eyelid about her comments!

Thanks for your comments tho guys. I'm glad there are a few people out there on a similar wave length to me! I sometimes think I'm all alone!

[eventerbabe]

i'm in total agreement with you! novice horse plus welsh sectionD is gonna equal trouble, without throwing gadgets and fashionable bits into the mix.

i've a welsh D. and we were told by an 'expert' to ride in a 3 ring gag which we did for a short while and things got worse, not better. we now alternate between a loose ring snaffle and a fulmer french link snaffle. going weaker not stronger was the key with my welshie :)

[hackedoff]

indeed - correct me if I'm wrong but surely a 3 ring gag is an elevator bit and the action of the standing martingale is to lower the head......so is it up or down she wants? :rolleyes: you really cant get involved in this kind of thing but it is hard to ignore when you see it, thats why I moved to a yard of like-minded horse hippies!

[Tootsie4U]

i would have thought she needs to be re taught everything if there is a hope of making a decent horse out of her.




Key sentence.

They'll make a horse out of her, albeit just a different kind.

Would you be willing to give up some time to help your friend again? Maybe that'd be enough to convince her to ditch this new 'trainer'.

[Afellpony]

I'm in agreement with what everyone says about this combination of 'green' horse and very strong bit. The horse should be put in a soft, kind bit and ridden in the school, with short hacks (if possible) thrown in to get used to the bit. The owner in question needs to get an experienced and kind trainer and then work together on getting the horse going. She should get some lessons from a humane, sensible and experienced instructor. She also needs to read some books on how to start a horse (even if this has been done before). Starting from scratch or even restarting should be done as kindly as possible with the mildest bit possible.

[BNaturally]

I agree with ^^^ the last post mention above.
Use word of mouth and find the trainer that, can help your horse and you.
Sometimes we're in to much of a hurry to do this and that and we ask the wrong people to help us.
Look for that trainer and watch them around their horse and that will tell you alot about their method and techniques.
I hope this helps.

[Bay Mare]

indeed - correct me if I'm wrong but surely a 3 ring gag is an elevator bit and the action of the standing martingale is to lower the head......so is it up or down she wants? :rolleyes: you really cant get involved in this kind of thing but it is hard to ignore when you see it, thats why I moved to a yard of like-minded horse hippies!

Yep, that's what I thought too! Quite apart from the green on green thing which I WON'T get into. This horse needs bringing on gently, kindly and patiently not decked to the eyeballs in bits and gadgets.

Personally I would use the gag on the so-called professional, use the martingale to string him/her up and then transport them not so gently out of my sight!

Gordysgirl - where abouts are you in Derbyshire? PM me if you don't want to put it on here. My trainer is brilliant in bringing on young and green horses, he's helped me loads with mine AND he doesn't believe in gadgets unless it's as a last resort. He even feels guilty using a flash on his dressage horse!

[ANN H]

My mare is a Section D (aged 12), but she wasn't backed until the age of about 8 as she'd been a driving horse. She was virtually unrideable when I got her at the age of 9. I had her 'assessed' by a RI who said we'd have to start from scratch and treat her like a 3 year old. I was a bit sceptical at first as I thouht the RI was laughing all the way to the bank. Turns out she was right though, and now three years later I've got a reasonably well-schooled horse. We did it slowly and thoroughly with lots of patience and perserverance. I had an acquaintance telling me to put her in a Dutch Gag to keep her under control, but no way! She's in a kimblewick (closest thing to a Liverpool driving bit) and she's v. happy with that. Tried her in a french link snaffle but felt I had no control or stopping power.

[Lora]

Its just that this professional has only met the horse once and it just seems a strange conclusion! !


I think this way too. I just don't see how you can waltz up to a horse and "know it" well enough to go changing everything critical like bits and things. God a bit can screw up a horse so fast it's not even funny.

I know a mare it took me 6 months of weekly riding to get to know her completely. The one I'm working with now I'm still getting to know him (has been three months) but then, I'm no trainer either.

[Susie xx]

Does your friend care about this little mare as a sensitive, sentient creature or having bought her does she expect a quick fix if a bit of finance is thrown at the owner's problem. If she bought a green horse surely she should be reading Mark Rashid, Frank Bell, Michael Peace, Susan McBane etc. can you get her to Ebay or Amazon to look for books. Put her in touch with Heather Moffatt and she may understand it is rarely the horse which is the problem.
Susie xx

[knockaroo]

I agree with all the above isn't this like putting the horse in a compression chamber and waiting for her to exploed poor thing. Aren't D's known for being forward & having presence, maybe she should do some real good bonding stuff as you say she hasn't worked her for 4 months,trust each other & then relax into riding her slow and pleasurable is far better than a painful quick fix which surely will lead to problems later. Perhaps you should introduce your friend to this site.

[*Sez*]

AAARRGGGHHH!! WHY on EARTH do people feel the need to follow fashion when it comes to their horses? It was once fashionable to dock the poor things and strap their heads up with bearing reins... you should offer this woman a similar "fashionable" approach and see what she thinks then :eek: .

This fad for Dutch gags and martingales has been sweeping around our yard as well. One girl in particular tends to follow every trend and rides her horse on the bottom ring with one set of reins... apparently no one told her that ring is normally for use with double reins.... plus a martingale. She thinks a 3 ring bit would be the perfect addition to my TB and that it's "unusual" to use a martingale with any other kind of bit. I realise some horses do genuinely go better in a Dutch gag or with a martingale (I personally ride Salsa in a running martingale while we work on his brakes, but I know it's not going to correct the "head in the air" issue.. that will take time and work), but that sort of decision should be made once you know a horse's behaviour and personality, and I was under the belief that they shouldn't be used together (isn't that sort of missing the point of each).

I'm also a big believer in the saying "green on green makes black and blue".. it is rarely a good combination. It sounds as if this woman is going to have a messed up Section D explosion on her hands :( .

I think you should say something in a diplomatic, tactful way... if you can! Maybe the next time you see her tacking up you could cheerfully say "that's a strong bit, isn't it? Does she run off with you?" and try to get into a conversation - this would hopefully break the ice enough for you to make a few subtle suggestions. I realise if your relationship with this woman isn't great, it might be difficult. The only other option is to let her make her own mistakes, and ensure you're around to help pick up the pieces.

Good luck with this... it's always difficult when it's someone else's horse. All you can really do is offer guidance and hope she picks up on some of it.

[gordysgirl]

Thanks guys so much for your replies. Today my friend invited me down to watch the lesson with this instructor. I hadn't mentioned anything to her about my concerns, so decided it would be sensible to actually see the lady in action before I piped up that I thought none of it made sense!!

Well when I got there first, she was tacked up with dutch on second ring from bottom (1 below snaffle ring). The instructor was doing some groundwork with her, which I thought was good. Basically the mare often tries to take your space so to speak. I think this is lack of confidence on her part and she tries to be as close to you as possible, not realising that shes so close shes knocking you over. The excercises were having little effect but they were improving her halt. When it came to being ridden, although the mare was fairly relaxed and understanding of the VERY basics, she was definately NOT happy in her mouth. It was commented that the bit had stopped her from snatching her head away, but the whole time the mare was chomping and grinding and opening her mouth (with flash on). I quietly mentioned to the owner that she didn't look comfortable in her mouth. She agreed first to get the dentist to check her teeth. I then suggested that maybe she should try a few more bits and just see if she 'clicked' with any. I tried to explain that it would take some time before the mare became accustomed to accepting a contact but she should be happier than she was now!

Thankfully she agreed with me! I have lent her my full cheek french link snaffle to try as this worked wonders with my horse. I didn't promise it would work but it was worth a try!

So hopefully, after much discussion, the mares feelings and lack of experience will be put first now, instead of the sudden urge to have a horse which can do everything immediately!

I know what you mean about section D's - I used to loan one, she was an absolute cracker, although generally v safe, she had the most amazing character which some people would find a little scary! I have a lovely TB now, but sometimes I long for the feeling a D can give!

BayMare - I will PM you!

[*Sez*]

What a great result! :D Well done in being so tactful :)

Lets hope that this little mare is soon comfortable in her mouth and working well.