If not phases, then what?

[julesandjoy]

If one doesn't use escalating phases (of any type) in their training program what does one use?

What methods constitute 'passive leadership' training?

What methods constitute other types of training?

Not asking for opinions or thoughts - just a barebones outline of other types of training practices.

I am new to horse ownership (7 yrs - first horse bought when I was 34) and I have used Parelli, Anderson, and Lyons to outline my handling. I've retrained a few, brought a few from the ground up, and have a few more on the way. I have taken no lessons and am unversed in 'classical' techniques or anything which involves more than groundwork and a good rope halter and lead rope. :)

Please do remember that one thread has already been closed due to hostilities and childish remarks. I'm on a fact-finding hunt and am interested in the exact techniques, materials, tack, or whatever that are involved in non-phase training. sylvia

[Bay Mare]

I obviously didn't answer correctly (not being a member of the cult of Parelli) so I'll delete my answer and leave it at that!

[Tootsie4U]

I dont regard the phases as yelling. Instead, the phases just represent a more *OBVIOUS* way of asking. If subtle body language doesnt work (Phase 1), then perhaps I need to point (PHase 2) and if that doesnt work I need to make things more obvious by asking horse to move away from pressure (Phase 3) and if that doesn't work then I need to be very obvious and show him I want him to move away from pressure (Phase 4). Never do I need to yell, man handle, or abuse -thats just plain counterproductive. The need to do so shows complete ignorance in horse training. This misunderstanding of the system is what brings a bad name.

As far as passive leadership; its a concept that is not easily defined. What one person considers passive leadership may not be what the next person presumes it to be. Its based on horse herds and the horse in the herd that all others follow willingly - not because they're forced to. What does that horse do to gain such respect? Thats what passive leadership tries to emulate.

You already mentioned it, but Lyons is probably the best trainer that doesn't completely rely on Phase based training. His approach is more tailored to repetition and desensitization. There is a message board on his website that is full of Lyons' based material that you might be interested in.

[cvb]

mmm got me thinking again :rolleyes:

I think there is a difference between escalation and ...er... for want of a better word "phases".

For example - if I am using leg as a cue

I could start with a light leg cue, say on a scale of 1-10, I start with a 1
if no response I could use the same cue but at a 2 or 3
and escalate up until I get a response.

I'm not sure this makes any sense as the horse is not deaf ! They are not responding for a reason so increasing the pressure isn't going to sort out the underlying problem.

Whereas, for example, Parelli sends out on Circle with "lift it, lead it, swing it, touch it" - it isn't lift it, lift it a bit more, lift it even more.

The phases, in this case, aim to make it more likely for the horse to do what you want them to do.

Mark Rashid talks in a way that indicates he doesn't "escalate". He will ask a rider "what level of pressure (in the aid) do you want to end up with ?" and they almost always say "two" (LOL) - and thats what he gets them to use to ask the horse. But for example, with moving away from the leg, he will say - use the cue, if they don't respond, waggle your whip in the air (where they can see it, out to the side), then if they don't respond, slap you own leg, and only if they STILL don't respond do you touch/tap the horse with the whip.

Now there doesn't seem to be any increase in pressure in there (whereas in the Parelli example you could say each phase also has more pressure ?). But it IS a phased approach. (definition of phase "any distinct time period in a sequence of events")

Just realised that in a somewhat long winded way I am asking

what do you mean by "escalating phases" ? ;)

[julesandjoy]

Thank you, CVB. :) That's exactly what I was wanting. An outline of exactly what is involved in whateveritis that you use when training/handling your horse.

I'm not wanting an overview of names and ideas. I want exactly what it is you do. If you don't like phases or escalation or whatever...

What Do You Do???

Do you push w/your hand? Do you push w/your crop? Do you not push at all but maybe give a verbal and then use a crop? What exactly is it you do? Step by step.

I'm not asking this so I can use the steps and go out to see what effect it has on my horse (although one can hardly read a wonderfully presented - and seemingly effective - way of dealing w/horses and not have it in the back of their mind next time they're out :) ). I'm asking so I can have a basic idea of what one means when one says

"a horse doesn't understand then you need to ask in a different way, not louder"
or
" haven't dominated her so she still has a character plus she's allowed a 'say'" - How much of a say? Do you literally allow your horse to say, "no" to your canter cue? If you're on a trail and there's water and she doesn't wish to cross - do you allow her to turn around and head back home? If not, then what exactly do you do??? :)

I already use a mixture of Parelli and Anderson w/my horses and it works well. I will say that I got alot more done when I was using Parelli 'by the book' so to speak. Literally going exactly through the different ways of asking a horse to do something and waiting til they get it figured out. The different ways of asking really help them to understand what you're wanting. If you want them to back straight and they don't even understand how to go backwards then you certainly do not start out in the middle of a 20 acre field. :D You start maybe in the barn isle or next to a (safe, as in not-barbed-wire) fence. You span their nose w/your hand and press your fingers into either side of their face. You wait and if they don't move you maybe press slightly w/your fingers. You wait (while maintaining the 'press') and if they don't move you give a gentle squeeze and release, squeeze and release, squeeze and release w/your fingers to wake them up a bit. If they even think about giving to that pressure (whether or not they actually move their feet) you QUIT DOING ANYTHING and instantly (INSTANTly) release all the pressure and give them a minute or two to think about it.

Next time you start by putting your fingers on their nose, and then giving pressure, and then squeezing they should be more ready to give their nose and they should actually give it a bit sooner and w/more action (meaning if they only thought about it last time they should actually move their nose away from your touch this time)

If you follow this simply approach then, pretty soon and w/consistant adn well-timed RELEASES, you will have a horse who understands that you want them to move away from nose pressure even to the point that it involves their feet. Thus, the horse learns to back up. And, presumebly, he learns to back up straight due to the fence and he learns to be calm during it because he's in a familiar, safe environment (his barn/arena/pasture) and his handler allows him the time to figure out what's going on.

If your horse is particularly 'thick skinned' (and hey, let's not even go there, shall we? :D :D :D) then you might have to hold that 'squeeze and release' over and over and over and over til they DO get it (adding a little cluck or tap on the shoulder or whatever you might deem would work w/that particular horse to help him/her understand to move or think 'back').

Anyway. That's what I'm talking about. We can use the terms phases, or escalation, or passive, or ask, or whatever and it means nothing (or a million one things).

I want to know... What is it you do??? sylvia

[kedwards]

If you are interested in some classical training literature, for purposes of comparing and contrasting, I'd suggest Podhajsky's "Complete Training of Horse and Rider" and Klimke's "Basic Training of the Young Horse."

[julesandjoy]

If you are interested in some classical training literature, for purposes of comparing and contrasting, I'd suggest Podhajsky's "Complete Training of Horse and Rider" and Klimke's "Basic Training of the Young Horse."


:) Thanks, K. I've got several good books about jumping/dressage/basic riding written in that vein (english, classical-type stuff as opposed to western 'breaking' or natural training). I've read them over several times and might puruse them again, but what I was really wanting is to get away from using such general terms such as 'phases' or 'ask' or 'train' and get to the nuts and bolts of the thing....

The actual physical actions taken on the part of the handler, and horse, and the eventual outcome as it relates to posts on this board. To kind of give myself - and others - a better idea of what it is we're all talking about. Maybe head off some misunderstandings and suchwhat. sylvia

[kedwards]

The actual physical actions taken on the part of the handler, and horse, and the eventual outcome as it relates to posts on this board. To kind of give myself - and others - a better idea of what it is we're all talking about.

The problem is, this is an enormous task, not something that could be answered in a very meaningful way through a bulletin board post.

I do not believe that the two books I suggested are interchangeable with general books on "jumping/dressage/basic riding." They don't fall into those categories, as they are not riding books. They are, however, excellent descriptions of the 'specifics' of classical training.

[cvb]

julesandjoy

just to turn this upside down :rolleyes: - year before last I audited a Leslie Desmond clinic, and in her view (as I understand it), the "action" happens on the release, rather than the release being the reward for getting the answer right !

So more and more I think the phase or form of pressure I used is probably more to do with what kind of release I have in mind... does that make sense ?

On a less airy-fairy level, we have a new pony, just backed, and she doesn't really get the point of it all yet. She sometimes gets "stuck" with her feet. Using normal leg aids does not get a response - so I was working with her rider (my mother) to go for form of escalation which went

- voice or kiss to go forward
- squeeze of leg (quite light)
- waggle whip
- slap leg
- tap of horse's hip (this taken from John Lyons cue to go forward)

She's actually getting a lot better as we all get to know each other, but when I was reflecting about what happened at the weekend I realised that the rider is now going very rapidly to the "tap" phase of the process and skipping the earlier parts i.e. its going: leg (no response) - tap tap tap tap...

I think I need to review this with her (the rider) again....

[julesandjoy]

The problem is, this is an enormous task, not something that could be answered in a very meaningful way through a bulletin board post.

I do not believe that the two books I suggested are interchangeable with general books on "jumping/dressage/basic riding." They don't fall into those categories, as they are not riding books. They are, however, excellent descriptions of the 'specifics' of classical training.


Well, I would understand that you couldn't put that book into a thread post. :) I guess I'm still not making myself very clear. I reckon I'll just wait til the next time someone posts an obscure or misunderstandable phrase/word and then I'll just ask for clarity on that. I'm not wanting a ground to saddle overview of a specific type of training... I'm wanting to avoid misunderstandings by having specific ways-of-doing given instead of rote phrases.

Make any sense? Kinda like this...

I make sure my horse knows where my space is.

OR

When my horses steps too close to me for my comfort I'll point to his face w/my finger to cue him to move back over. He learned this cue over a period of a few days where I would 'give him the finger' (wiggly grin) which he didn't understand, of course. I would make my intentions a bit more clear by putting my finger into his nose and pressing until he moved his nose. Pretty soon he would move his nose himself when I would point at him.

...Stuff like that. sylvia

[julesandjoy]

julesandjoy

just to turn this upside down :rolleyes: - year before last I audited a Leslie Desmond clinic, and in her view (as I understand it), the "action" happens on the release, rather than the release being the reward for getting the answer right !

So more and more I think the phase or form of pressure I used is probably more to do with what kind of release I have in mind... does that make sense ?

On a less airy-fairy level, we have a new pony, just backed, and she doesn't really get the point of it all yet. She sometimes gets "stuck" with her feet. Using normal leg aids does not get a response - so I was working with her rider (my mother) to go for form of escalation which went

- voice or kiss to go forward
- squeeze of leg (quite light)
- waggle whip
- slap leg
- tap of horse's hip (this taken from John Lyons cue to go forward)

She's actually getting a lot better as we all get to know each other, but when I was reflecting about what happened at the weekend I realised that the rider is now going very rapidly to the "tap" phase of the process and skipping the earlier parts i.e. its going: leg (no response) - tap tap tap tap...

I think I need to review this with her (the rider) again....

:) I did follow that last part of your posts - if that's any help. :D

If I'm following the airy-fairy part when you're talking about the release being the action is that, when given w/a feel for the horse's response, the release is where the horse 'gets it'. If the release is even a tad (milliesecond) too slow the horse is left hanging. If the release is given right 'on time' the horse gets it and and gets lighter and lighter w/the aids. I still think it could be looked at as a reward for getting it right but it has to be instandaneous w/the correct response.

I've seen people trying to back their horse and they'll be pulling on the reins and the horse just lazily moving backward w/the head all up in the air. The rider thinks they've gotten all the backward motion the horse has to give so will 'reward' the horse by letting go of the reins.

Guess what?

The release came way too late - as the horse's feet were slow and sluggish, if not completely stopped - soooooo... the horse learns to stop his feet and wait for the release no matter how much he's pulled on - that release WILL come and he knows it. Meanwhile the frustrated rider wails and bemoans the fact that his horse is slow and stupid and just won't back up, little knowing that THEY and their poor feel for timing/release are the cause.

If the release came as the horse was actively moving even one foot backward then the horse would learn and build on that - ie MOVING his/her feet back.

So a well-timed release is a reward. To think that the horse can associate a reward even half a second after the desired behaviour is performed is to have poor feel. The reward/release has to be almost one w/the desired behavior. sylvia


Just read again the part about the just-backed pony (whom I feel sure is a good-sized 14 or 14.2 hand horse *grin*). If this horse doesn't know to move forward from leg pressure then it's up to you to finish her training. The kiss-to-squeeze-to-waggle-to-slap-to-tap is a good thing to do if you want the horse to learn to go from a verbal cue. I show sometimes and you can't give verbal in the show ring most of the time. :) So on a horse I'm just backing I would squeeze, add a click, add a tap, tap a bit harder, continue all three at that level til the horse moves. If the horse seems to be getting very confused, upset, or excited (or is just standing there saying, "Hello??? Say what?") I'll get someone on the ground to actually step them forward w/the lead rope after I get to the first 'tap'.

When the horse 'gets it' and is responding from a squeeze I'll go directly to the tap if they get a bit lazy. I skip the verbal cue altogether 'cause we both tend to get dependent on it. When they've got all three gaits (usually I'm moving up through trot to canter) I'll go to an arena and do the 'passenger lesson' excerise I outlined in the dominance thread. This is literally a very light squeeze followed immediately by a big, arching spank on either side of the saddle. I don't muss around when we get to this point 'cause the horse, by then, has a VERY good understanding of move forward and my goal is to get them light to the leg and holding their gait.

[cvb]

sylvia

Mark Rashid talks about setting clear boundaries for the horse. You can set them where you want but, he says, he tends to set his at arm's length.

Now thats an example of your first example - it sets out the vision, the end result if you like.

But the "how to" is missing. Now I could write down what I saw him do with a horse - but it will be my interpretation of what I saw... and limited by my own understanding and (in)ability to put that into words.

and you could fulfill that objective in both a "passive" way AND a dominant way, and agressive way, etc etc

It IS actually quite difficult to describe in words, without good pictures to at least illustrate points in the process. even if you had a video clip, it would only show you specific examples of interaction, not every possibility.

Part of the "how to" is understanding the basic principles you are applying so that you can use them in new and different situations, so it isn't just "if horse does A, you must do B" - cos then how do you know what to do when the horse does X ????

to sum up that complexity in a barebones outline would take a very good writer indeed :cool:

[cvb]

:) I did follow that last part of your posts - if that's any help. :D

If I'm following the airy-fairy part when you're talking about the release being the action is that, when given w/a feel for the horse's response, the release is where the horse 'gets it'.

Sylvia

actually with leslie its even more than that.

Rather than

cue/try/release

it goes cue/release/try !!

i.e. it is NOT the cue that creates the response its the release from the cue. And she could demo it as well. She showed, repeatedly, on horse's she was new to - that releasing the stirrup from the horses side (i.e. when the pressure came OFF) created a sideways step away from that - i.e. the movement you would expect to get as a yield to the pressure....

[KateWooten]

Leslie Desmond clinic, and in her view (as I understand it), the "action" happens on the release, rather than the release being the reward for getting the answer right !


cvb, I would really like to hear more about this. At the moment, I feel I am 'clumsy' in my horses eyes. I am definitely waiting for the first correct answer the horse gives. If it's something new we're learning, then I'm getting better at looking for the first semblance of a try, the rocking back, not waiting til the first actual step back before the release. But whta you're saying here from Leslie is even more than that, right ? Could you write down exactly what you saw, ... or point me to a link if you know of one

thanks

kate

[julesandjoy]

Sylvia

actually with leslie its even more than that.

Rather than

cue/try/release

it goes cue/release/try !!

i.e. it is NOT the cue that creates the response its the release from the cue. And she could demo it as well. She showed, repeatedly, on horse's she was new to - that releasing the stirrup from the horses side (i.e. when the pressure came OFF) created a sideways step away from that - i.e. the movement you would expect to get as a yield to the pressure....


Wow. That would be a light horse wouldn't it? Would it be realistic to think that if I went out and pressed my hand into JayZ's side (weanling colt) and then released that he would move over? Not likely, imo. Do you reckon, then, that Leslie's timing is so in tune w/the horse that she can tell when they're going to give a try and she releases just a hair's breadth before? Or maybe she's advocating the 'release before they respond' to just help give a good 'feel' for people who might not know what she's talking about?

That's really an interesting way to look at it. I will very probably be thinking about that next time I'm out w/my horses (like, this afternoon....). :)


Cvb posted...
"Mark Rashid talks about setting clear boundaries for the horse. You can set them where you want but, he says, he tends to set his at arm's length."

That actually is sort of what I am talking about. Instead of leaving it at 'setting clear boundaries' you did follow up by specifying 'at arm's length'. To leave it hanging at this very unclear picture of 'clear boundaries' w/o the follow up is bound to create some misunderstandings. That's all I was trying to avoid and some of the reason the other thread, imo, was closed. Everyone just came to an impasse that some clear-headed clarification (not to mention interpretation) would have been able to fix. sylvia


Edited for clarification!!! :D

[kedwards]

I reckon I'll just wait til the next time someone posts an obscure or misunderstandable phrase/word and then I'll just ask for clarity on that. I'm not wanting a ground to saddle overview of a specific type of training... I'm wanting to avoid misunderstandings by having specific ways-of-doing given instead of rote phrases.

Noble goal. I've pretty much resigned myself to the fact that language will sometimes be used differently by different people (horse or otherwise). To reduce misunderstandings, these "specifics" need to be asked in context, as you inferred.

[BeachRiding]

Look, leg, lift rein, pull. That's what I go by.

[Lora]

I obviously didn't answer correctly (not being a member of the cult of Parelli) so I'll delete my answer and leave it at that!

Why so harsh? Can you not see a discussion where the name parelli (or any other) is used and have an intelligent conversation? Seriously, is sarcasm ever helpful in gaining/giving knowledge?

[cvb]

Could you write down exactly what you saw, ... or point me to a link if you know of one


Kate - she has a book, and a website I think (www.lesliedesmond.com ?). I have the book but its another one on my "to do" list :rolleyes:

Do you reckon, then, that Leslie's timing is so in tune w/the horse that she can tell when they're going to give a try and she releases just a hair's breadth before?

julesandjoy

Leslie does have amazing feel. But - I went home and did the stirrup thing, and it worked :D

Basically try this.... with saddle on horse and stirrup hanging by the side - you're on foot by the side. Use your hand to press the stirrup against the side where you would normally use it... its a firm press. Now pull it away. I will bet the horse takes a step away when its removed ;)

Even better, try to get to see her when she's in UK next. She's amazing - I confess it blew my mind. Its like going to see a concert pianist play or Cirque du soleil or something truely amazing like that :D Not in it being a spectacle, but in it being amazing, challenging, etc

[julesandjoy]

Kate - she has a book, and a website I think (www.lesliedesmond.com ?). I have the book but its another one on my "to do" list :rolleyes:



julesandjoy

Leslie does have amazing feel. But - I went home and did the stirrup thing, and it worked :D

Basically try this.... with saddle on horse and stirrup hanging by the side - you're on foot by the side. Use your hand to press the stirrup against the side where you would normally use it... its a firm press. Now pull it away. I will bet the horse takes a step away when its removed ;)

Even better, try to get to see her when she's in UK next. She's amazing - I confess it blew my mind. Its like going to see a concert pianist play or Cirque du soleil or something truely amazing like that :D Not in it being a spectacle, but in it being amazing, challenging, etc


:) I live in Mississippi, USA. The closest she comes to here is... I believe Missouri??? Hmm, maybe it was just California.

Either one is a bit out of reach for me as far as travel distance. :)

I haven't saddled anyone this week (hurt my back this past Sunday - oldER age is NOT fun) but next time I have Jules or Barbie geared up I'll test the stirrup thing. sylvia