market harborough- extra brakes?

[No_Angel]

i was just wondering, would a market harborough apply extra brakes when you needed them?
we have a very strong cob who when he gets excited cantering puts his head on the floor and tanks, would the market harborough have and up and in effect so he would stop? hes in a rope nose sidepull and is perfect most of the time, just the getting strong out cantering is the problem.

[nutkin]

I have a friend with a cob who learnt the same trick.In his case he had been owned by a novice and realised by putting his nose down he could use his strength against her and pull her out of the saddle.The same horse also used to plough through gates with her. The thing is you need to keep the horse going forwards to prevent them getting their head down in the first place much the same as with a horse that bucks.I would think that he is pulling his head down to avoid the force on his nose.Have you tried him in a bit which he can not grab a hold on like a roller snaffle.One way to prevent him from putting his head down is at the first attempt give him a sharp kick with your legs and really push him forwards each and every time he does it. I would do this in an enclosed area first though rather than an open field.

[No_Angel]

he does it when i ride him aswell, hes a hw cob and just goes, no amount of anything will stop him, ive tried all the bits you can get, and he pulled through them all, i have tried him in german hackamores and all sorts, and he still ploughs through them, weve settled on a sidepull and it seems to work ok.
ive kicked him and made him go, and hes taken off and kept going over loads of fields, then he learnt the trick of swerving and dropping his shoulder mid canter:rolleyes:

[Holly B]

Do you think you actually need more brakes in general, or would you be able to control him as long as he had his head up? If you think he'd be controllable with his head up, you could try one of these from Robinsons:

Daisy rein (http://www.robinsons-uk.com/products/ProductDetail.asp?ProductCode=35301)

They were originally designed to stop ponies getting their heads down to eat, but I've heard of people who've used them to stop their tanking horses from running off with their heads between their knees. My pony tends to put her head down when she gets strong so I've been toying with the idea of getting one of these for a while, but just never got round to it! :)

[Jetstreem]

Those Daisy reins are good, as long as your pony doesnt mind having pressure at the top of its head when it tries to put it down.

I got one for one of my ponies, to really stop her eating grass, as well as to stop her from ducking her head down and putting the reins out of the childs hands.

This was a really bad idea, the first time I put them on i took her out and rode her round and she went nuts, she bucked and bucked and bucked and eventually managed to pull the D rings off my saddle. I only ever then used them when she hacked out so that she couldnt dive for the grass on the verge. Luckily she doesnt need them now as she has a bigger child riding her at the moment.

Cerys :)

[No_Angel]

ive got a daisy rein, we used it to stop our pony putting her head down to eat when we walked along the grass trail to get out from the field, but she went down on her knees to eat:rolleyes:
the one we have isnt long enough for his neck, and wed want him to be able to eat if we stopped anywhere, and to stretch his neck down when hes being ridden out on a hack, thats why i thought a market harborough would work as it only really comes into play when you want it to.

hes perfectly controllable when hes in teh school and working correctly (in an outline) he goes from canter to halt with just weight aids, so its just when hes out on fields really.

[kirstie]

Isn't a Market Harborugh suppose to keep in them in a nice outline and keep them on the bit thats what my friend used to use on her horse i don't think its meant to stop them her horse spooked and took off she couldn't stop it with ot without the marketharorough and couldn't get his head up. :) (this was on a field as well by the way he was ok in the paddock with fences that is he was controlable in there)

[KateWooten]

no, a market harborough is not the answer to your problem with this horse. Just as blinkers are not the answer to your other problems with your other horse. Training is. In both cases.

As a last chance before I gave up and sent my NSH filly through yet another sale barn, since I couldn't risk another trip to ER, a good man stepped up and before he would tell me how to 'fix my horse' insisted that I admit to him, to my horse, and to the world that I am not a great trainer. On the contrary, I know almost nothing. He made me admit that I am willing to listen and learn. He made me say that to my horse. It was humbling.

Would you like to see a picture of her 3 weeks later ridden out bareback in just a halter and leadrope, on a loose rein, meeting trucks for the first time and happily trotting down the road with me ? She never reared again, neither did she even attempt to kick my head off.

I have only your best interest, and that of your horses. at heart.

Kate

[No_Angel]

thanks, i know your only trying to help, but i can ride him out bareback with a headcollar on, and do, i can ride him around the field with no tack, so it isnt a problem-just when we are out!
im really starting to not want to post about things on here, as people treat me like i have no clue, i have a rearer thanks, she doesnt get ridden much anymore as she has arthritis, but after change of tack and lots of groundwork she is better!

would you like to see a picture of this horse?
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b242/madams_walk/murf1resized.jpg
now tell me if you could stop that with a piece of rope around its nose with its head on the floor? No you cant. im a fairly good rider, ive been riding for years when i was a child on my bolting pony who was given to a natural horsemanship trainer as he was a pretty screwed up horse. so ive had my fair share of the sillies, and i do prefer natural methods, but it aint working with him!!
i cannot ride him all the time,and train him at the moment, i have a broken collarbone and have no strength in my left arm, i rode him in the field not so long ago and he just carted me to the top, i couldnt even turn him in a circle, so my nervous mum, who owns him, without a great seat, has no hope in hell on him.
i realise what action the market harborough has, i also have a pretty good imagination, so can actually imagine it doing something else other than what is stated on the box, like applying extra pressure to the sidepull he is ridden in, and maybe stopping him.
thanks

[katieB]

I was interested to see what replies you got on this thread seeing as though it mentioned the word 'market harborough' :eek:
I think what you are suggesting would work, the ideal situation would be to get in the school and train him to work better so you get the desired effect without the MH but as you have already stated this is not possible so you need something shorter term. A friend of mine was advised by instructor to occasionally hack out (short rides) using a MH for a similar reason but she left the yard so im unable to say what effect it had.
The other alternative is the daisy rain but only attach it up when you pick up the pace. Good luck :)

[Kanuma]

what is a side pull? sorry i havent seen one before i dont think.
anyway, i thought market harborgh were for rearers? i personaly dont like them anyway and am guessing that with a bitless bridle (sidepull?) that the action of the harborgh would be changed.
i think your answer may lie along the lines of something simpler, perhaps use the daisy rein idea untill he gets the idea that he isnt allowed to stick his head down and tank off. also daisy reins are quite easy to attach and detach if you stop for a while.

[No_Angel]

i shall see if the daisy rein works at all, come to think about it i did use it on a tb who pulled his head down all the time, so it would be long enough:)

a sidepull is a bitless yes, it look slike this
http://www.nrsworld.com/istarimages/p/p-TA050005!CTACK.jpg
weve tried him in hackamores aswell as he is just soo strong, but he just pulls through them like a steam train and leans on them, he seems to respect the sidepull more. when he was bitted we had to keep upping the bits, as what worked for months he suddenly pulled through and he was getting quite dangerous as he just used to go on this one field and run home. we havent got great hacking by us either, and to do a circuit so that my girl maddie doesnt bob all the way home you have to go the field way, this is the one he takes off on:(

[KateWooten]

Tasha - he looks like a big strong tough pony for sure, but then all horses are stronger than their riders ... but here's the thing - if he wants to, he can - I mean, if he wants to listen to you and be respectul and not tank, then he can. With a humungous neck on him like that I'd bet he would totally benefit from lateral flexion. You know a fair bit about that exercise - how well does it work with him ? What happens when you use your 1-rein-stop at the halt, and then at the walk, then the trot etc ?

That's where I would start ... always remembering to use 'less earlier than more later' ... ie I'd be very alert to the signs he gives right before sticking his head down and tanking. Right then, that's when I'd be putting him to work on his lateral exercises, before he'd had a chance to brace himself against you.

I'm not against the use of mechanical devices to give the handler control over the situation - I use them myself - halters, leads, snaffles - they're all devices to gain control. I just think that a particular device should only be considered if it is a part of a realistic training strategy. If not, if it's just a patch over a problem, then I just think you're storing up trouble for later ... you see too many horses passed along through worse and worse sales because they're 'too strong'.

Kate

[No_Angel]

he isnt a pony, hes a horse, and hes twice as wide as most other heavyweight cobs ive seen, 2 of my friends have hw cobs and hes alot chuinkier than them, he has 10 1/2 inches of bone!
my bf and i were holding him at a show in his bridle, and he dragged both of us along the field, hes not just a strong horse-hes a very strong horse!
and i really dont think hed get passed through and auction, hes well schooled and a lovely horse, but knows how big he is.
funnily enough he went hunting and he was a gem, so its not all the time, just certain fields.
he turns nicely, walk trot and canter, but when his head is on the floor theres not much you can do, you cant turn, you cant pull up, you cant do anything, and he even isnt properly bolting, just tanking, i was alot less scared riding my pony who bolted. i was riding murf up a field once and he just turned and dropped his shoulder, i came off, that is also how i broke my collarbone, was on murf, he was being a bit silly, i pushed him through it and he dropped his shoulder, i fell on my shoulder and had to be rescued by paramedics.
im going to try the daisy rein before we buy a market harborough, or i might make my own.

[Pink's lady]

To back you up No_Angel, I know from experience that which a horse built like that, and determinded (which usually come with the build :rolleyes: ), when they set their mind to something, NO amount of training has any affect as they are no longer listening. The ONLY way of re-gaining control is to either to phyiscally stop them doing it in the first place, or forcing them to listen, usually with discomfort. Sad but true. My old cob was the same. Very well-school, lovely and light to ride (used to practise dressage bare-back with a head collar), totally atentive 99.9% of the time. But when she was very excited (hunting, galloping in company etc) she stopped listen and training went out the window. So I had her in a dutch gag - top rein for when she behaved herself (most of the time) bottom rein so i could control her when she wasn't.


A Market harbough might just work with him, fitted so it only comes into affect when he puts his head too low - it will give you leaverage. But then he might just lean on the neck strap and go anyways. And you'd have to get the neck-strap very strong so he can't snap it. It would be worth rigging up your own one out to try it and see. Having the neck strap secured to the D-rings, like a hunter breast plate, might also help.

[No_Angel]

thats what i was thinking, attach it to a hunter breastplate so you have some extra strength in it. im a bit worried as someone i spoke to said her horse pulled so hard the strap broke:eek:

[Jessey]

My friends little 14hh arab mare bust a MH when tanking, I would be supprised if one would stand up to you're chap BUT the different feel might be enough to get him to listen.
I used to loan a haflinger X Cob, he was nicknamed Tank because nothing stopped him when he wanted to go! and I really mean no ammount of brute force due to too many years of people trying just that.
I would try pushing him through it, in an enclosed area, everytime he doesn't stop right when you ask really push him on, until he tries to stop then push a bit more for a few stride then you ask him to stop again etc. BUT it sounds like you have already tried that and ended up much worse for wear :(

Does he do this trick on the lunge? what about if he didn't have the reins to lean on, ie totally give with your hands so he can't lean on you, might shock him into carrieing him self a bit more? or maybe something like a bungee would help him, I know that certainly helped keep my boys head up (but he used to stick his between his knees to buck) and can be used for lunging or ridden and set up in various differnt ways.

J x

[hackedoff]

Gosh he's the one who you use the sidepull on and he runs through it? Thats one strong bunny :D I had so much brakes with that we were standing still! Have you tried him in a Myler Combination.......?
http://www.toklat.com/myler/mbits_combo.html

[No_Angel]

im not sure i really want to go back to the bit route, at one point he was pulling through a pelham with a grackle noseband:(

hes actually perfect on the lunge, and when schooling he is quite light, it just seems to be when hes out, when i take him out onhis own hes very strong and he parades about like a stallion, he tends to keep his head up and in and tanks then:rolleyes: but when he gets on a field its head down and off, he once did it up a country lane in trot when a dog barked at him, and when i was trying to get him over a bridge he did it in tor with me, i had to get my dad to wlak home with me as i was afraid id get bolted with:o

[DavidH]

Sorry but i doubt a MH will help you. Your problems really start when he puts his head down (and probably tucked in as well?). The action of a MH lowers the horses head by putting pressure on the lower bars, very much like draw reins. This makes the horse lower its head to release the pressure. In your situation the pressue will be applied to the nose with the same result but increased tucking in of head. Odds are you will have less control, not more.

Not saying this because i am anti MH (have used one a couple of times myself). Just dont want you to waste your money on something that wont help you.