Does any know what its called???????

[matthew]

My friends horse does a lot of pulling and puts his head down a lot and up in the air. He has developed muscles in the bottom of his neck and sometimes comes out of contol. My RI said that there was this special training equipment which is the same as a martingale/marketharorough (sp) but i can't think of the what its called any information is much appreiecaited. Thanks :)

[Dizzy]

When a horse resorts to putting his head down and up to evade the contact, there is obviously something bothering him - I personally would not be looking to add a restaint, I'd want to know why and correct it.

First thing I'd do is get a Horse Dentist out to check his teeth.

[KateWooten]

It's called a 'market harborough' it's yet another gadget marketed at people as a quick fix alternative to the training that the horse and rider require. It will work, kind of, for a while.

[macinac]

Your friend could also try using a neck stretcher or a chambon on him.. I find the chambon to work excellent.

[KateWooten]

that would be a "chambon".

[de_Stille_een]

I have a horse at work that likes to do this- he dropped his head *and* threw it in the air- mostly trying to evade the bit and/or the rider's hands. Everyone likes to say "oh! It's hurting him- there's something wrong! We have to call the vet and the equine dentist and the chiropractor and the message therapist and we'll have to buy the latest bit fad..." Honestly, they usually are just playing games with you or throwing a minor temper tantrum. It doesn't hurt to check the fit of the bit and bridle, and if your horse is due for a float, you might want to have it done, but the percentage of horses who did this and had a real problem (fit or healthwise) is so very very small compared to how many horses did this because they didn't want to work, they didn't want to get on the bit, or they knew that if they threw a fit, the rider would fuss over them. Don't let them get away with it. Make a quick check to make sure everything's all right, and then take the steps to prevent him from doing it by picking up a standing martingale/tie-down (english/western) and an overcheck.

On our current head tosser, we use an overcheck (it attaches to the bit, runs along the cheek pieces, joins at the poll, and attackes to the saddle- when the horse puts his head down, it puts upward pressure on the bit, as opposed to the riders hands, which only pull back behind the horse), and a tie down (a leather strap that clips to a ring under the horse's chin, runs under the breastcollar, between the legs, and clips to the girth).

Tiedowns really doesn't work with an english tack because there aren't dee rings on the girths and there aren't typically rings on the cavessons, but they do make similar pieces for english tack- usually called a "standing martingale"- it's either a one piece breast collar and martingale, or just an attachment to add to your collar- it simply has a loop you run through the noseband strap before you buckle it, and the other end either has a loop that you run the girth through before attaching, or attaches to a ring on your horse's breastcollar. I'm sure they make overchecks for english tack- sometimes they might be called "daisy reins"- they're often used to prevent childrens' ponies from lowering their head to eat grass.

[hackedoff]

. My RI said that there was this special training equipment
There is. Its called a second opinion!!!!!:D

[Kanuma]

de stille een im going to have to disagree with you there. all the head tossers ive come across ahave had a problem, either with thier back or teeth or immune system and aometimes something as simple as a pollen net has stopped it altogether.
one of my horses resorted to rearing to tell me there was something wrong, it was his saddle that wasnt fitting even though it looked like it was to the untrained eye, according to my saddler it was causeing him alot of pain, i got a new custom saddle for him and the rearing stopped instantly.
Ive also got a horse who head shakes in most snaffle bits as he dislikes the action of them, put him in a pelham and he is happy!
ive had horses stick thier heads down and go due to teeth problems (one broke my sisters arm doing it).
I find in the large majority of cases that horses are not just mucking around, they are in pain and are trying to tell us in the only way they know how.
a standing martigale prevents the horse putting its head up but getting it down seems to be no problem in them
a market harborgh is not a tool to be used by anyone but very experianced people.
i personaly would look into feet, teeth, back and tack, then if all of that were right id start swapping bits to see if it was the action of the bit he was unhappy with. if that was fine id move on to some serious schooling, i dont like seeing gadgets on horses, the only one i can stand to see is a runnng martigale whilst jumping

[Wally]

A chambon, De Gouge or Market Harboro' may not be the answer, and if the person is not fairly well educated in the hands, leg, seat and balance it's the last thing you shoud be using.

Have to agree with Kanuma, None of the gadgets you buy will "cure" a head going up or down, it might mask the problem but it won't fix the root of the problem.

I rode a borrowed horse once, was given her tack including a running martingale. I don't ride in Running marting gales, I HATE THEM! I was told she needed it, I told them she might I didn't. The owners and on lookes were gobsmacked as she never chucked her head once, in the whole 2 hours I rode her. The martingale was causing the problem, when she wasn't wearning it the bad hands and seat of her owner were causing it! Chicken and egg situation.

[Bay Mare]

There is. Its called a second opinion!!!!!:D

Well said, hackedoff :)

Saff threw her head around a LOT (to the point of bashing me in the face) when I first got her. I had her back checked, her teeth checked, Bowen and Reiki done, an RA out. With patience, change of diet and help (good trainer, fantastic RA, brilliant Bowen/Reiki therapist) she rarely does it now. I haven't resorted to draw reins, market harboroughs, martingales or anything like that. She is ridden in a cavesson noseband with a Sprenger KK Ultra bit and occasionally in a pelham (2 reins) which she seems to really like. Ok, we're a way off being in an advanced dressage horse outline but her musculature is better, she can stretch down now which she didn't like to do before and she doesn't go round like a giraffe!

[matthew]

thanks but i have found the name it is called an abbit-davis (sp).

Dizzy
When a horse resorts to putting his head down and up to evade the contact, there is obviously something bothering him - I personally would not be looking to add a restaint, I'd want to know why and correct it.

First thing I'd do is get a Horse Dentist out to check his teeth.
she has had these checked it was just becouse of the neck muscle as he is an x pont to pont race horse

[DavidH]

thanks but i have found the name it is called an abbit-davis (sp).
Probably wrong as my memory aint what it used to be, but isn't that the device which resulted in its designers death when used on a horse which freaked out due to been too restricted?

[Kanuma]

she has had these checked it was just becouse of the neck muscle as he is an x pont to pont race horse

to me this screams work on the muscle dont force it! muscles take time to build up, she is probebly stretching down to loosen tight muscles or head shakeing to get you to let go when her muscles are tired.
my pony has been working at highish level dressage for years, but i dont just get on and ask for an outline instantly, and he gets brakes so he can relax his muscles, and when he is comeing back into work after winter we gradualy build up the strength of the muscles and the periods of time he is expected to hold himself in an outline. its like asking you to go from sitting in bed to running a marathon without warning, you are going to have to relax your muscles a few times dureing the duration and you need to build up the muscle strength.

Probably wrong as my memory aint what it used to be, but isn't that the device which resulted in its designers death when used on a horse which freaked out due to been too restricted?

as far as im aware yes!

[matthew]

No it is not that the problem is that the muscle is to weak it is to strong and she wats to ceep his head down as when he puts his head up he can go and that is what she wants to sort out

[Kanuma]

if the muscles at the bottom are to strong then the muscles at the top need work, and that wont come by tieing her head down, perhaps something like a martingale to start with so she cant get her head above the angle of control, without haveing to tye her head down

[vickie]

tying the horses head down will cause the horse to brace and actually help develop the very muscles she wants to reduce. the only gadget that could be useful IMVHO would be a pessoa, used by an EXPERIENCED person, only on the lunge and for short periods of time to help build up the correct musculature, combined with correct schooling :)

if the owner is having problems with control with an ex racer then she probably needs to go back to basics, and make sure the horse understands whats being asked of it :cool:

are abbott-davies still made? its years since i heard anyone mention one, much less use one :rolleyes:

[Wally]

Abbot Davis was indeed killed by his own invention when a horse he put in on took a hissy fit and killed him. anything which causes a horse to react like that is not to be recommened in anyone's hands.

[Mossy]

Abbot Davis was indeed killed by his own invention when a horse he put in on took a hissy fit and killed him. anything which causes a horse to react like that is not to be recommened in anyone's hands.
Somebody who had seen Con flybucking for four miles across Dartmoor one day opined that she rode semi serious endurance in an Abbott Davies and I should follow her example!!!!!! Despite that Con and I were both cream c*******d afterwards it was extreme high spirits which once ridden through we, luckily have not had repeated. No way will I hack in anything I could get my foot caught in!

[Kira657]

de stille een im going to have to disagree with you there. all the head tossers ive come across ahave had a problem, either with thier back or teeth or immune system and aometimes something as simple as a pollen net has stopped it altogether.


Totally agree with you. My mare devloped a snatching and head tossing habit because of a problem with her back and she also has this large muscle on the underside of her neck because of her high head carriage. I was advised to work her long and low as much as possible and lunge her with two reins to slowly build her non existent top line!No need for any fancy gadgets, just lots of schooling is normally the answer im afraid!

[Susie xx]

I agree you will need to suggest your friend should seek veterinary/dental advice. Maybe the horse would respond well to a Dr.Cooks bitless bridle. If he is a headshaker thsi can be relieved by a muzzle net from Equilibrium. Some horses are light sensitive/photic and he may be one. Here is a link which may be relevant http://www.jadwin.net/horse/ hope the horse gets his problems solved without being punished with gadgets.
Susie xx

[Shiny McShine]

Horses who have overdeveloped brachiosephalicus or rhomboidius muscles in the neck need to lower and extend the neck in order to adopt the correct position necessary for correct muscle development. Tying a horse's head down does not adequately allow them to acheive this forward and downward stretch.

["GEMMA_FROST"]

My ex- racer has also daveloped some muscle on the underside of his neck. He would throw his head up when being ridden and most of my expensive lessons with instrustors was taken up with Ronnie throwing his head around and did actually hit me in the head one day. We were pretty sure it was just confusion, frustration and his want to be somewhere else (like with our other horse) that made him do it. We had his teeth checked anyway and have a bowen therapist come out regularly to work on all our horses. Turned out it was just because he was confused and tense and I am glad we didn't resort to gadgets as he has, with time and patience, almost completely stopped doing it. My instructors have said that if I wanted they would allow me to wear a running martingale in my lessons, although I haven't, except when we are jumping, but it is quite loose. As soon as you take the gadget of any sort off, the horse will go straight back to their old habits. Have the horse checked by a vet, chiroprator and bowen therapist so you can safely eliminate a physical problem then get into encouraging the horse to relax whilst riding it. Stroke the horses neck with alternating hands, this encourages them to stretch and lower their neck and praise them when they do lower and soften their neck. This horse sounds like he needs to relax, restraining him won't do that.

[crazystevie]

They do still sell the abbot davies :eek:
http://www.abbotdavies.com/

[carrimclaren]

I can't really see the pictures on that site. Anyone out there want to quickly give me a run down on what on earth this abbottdavies thing is? Sounds a disgrace if the bloke was killed and they're still marketing it, maybe the lady on the website should improve her riding position instead of using it. (nasty but hey i'm in a grouchy mood) :o

[cvb]

Carrimclaren

its a training device which is supposed to encourage the horse to go in a particular way, and hence develop certain muscle. a.k.a. equine bondage gear ;) (ties the head to the tail....)

can you see this article on gadgets ? there's a part on the A-D rein
http://www.sustainabledressage.net/tack/gadgets.php

[Shiny McShine]

They do still sell the abbot davies :eek:
http://www.abbotdavies.com/

Check out the second picture down in the introduction section on that site. Is it just me or are those very un-natural neck muscles?

[Wally]

I'm glad you explained about the tail thing, for a really nasty moment I wondered what on earth it was attached to! :o :o :o

Yes- that neck looks SO tense and stiff. I have never used a draw rein or chambon or de-gauge or anything like that, havn't the first clue how they work.

[ajhainey]

I'm with Wally - it does look rather suspect attachment on first glance (and would explain my A-D's untimely accident nicely ;) ). And yes, the second photo looks very odd in the neck muscles...

It's amazing what things idle minds come up with! Hmm 'how about if I, yes, I've got it, tie his tail to his nose, that might help' - sounds more like an rspca case that a professional training system! aj xx

[carrimclaren]

Carrimclaren

its a training device which is supposed to encourage the horse to go in a particular way, and hence develop certain muscle. a.k.a. equine bondage gear ;) (ties the head to the tail....)

can you see this article on gadgets ? there's a part on the A-D rein
http://www.sustainabledressage.net/tack/gadgets.php

After reading that i feel quite off colour now. How on earth can anyone tie something from head to tail and be happy about getting on it and putting it through that.