Young horse purchase - advice appreciated.

[Whatanejit]

This is similar to Super Tania's previous thread.

We are quite interested in a quiet I.D X - Hunter type - who is only 5.

Usual story, bought from Ireland has hunted there. Was probably backed at 2yrs.

We have hacked him out twice now and he is bombproof in traffic - ambulances, oiltankers - idiot 20yr olds in zupped up cars who didn't slow down and he didn't bat an eyelid.

However, as you might imagine he is green in the school.

Walks, trots on 20m circle. Canters around the school large, not enough balance yet for 20m circle. No leg yield yet.

Confident with trotting poles - plan to jump a x pole with him next week.

We are confident novice / intermediate riders who want to continue our schooling and do a lot of hacking, le Trec, fun rides.

Should we go for it?

He has a super temperament - like a big dog - needs speeding up rather than slowing down which I understand is easier to work on.:D

We have the help of our RI who could school him for a few months while we only hack. During those 3 months we are attending the riding school for Stage 1 riding and stable management classes anyway so our schooling will be brought back to basics and streamlined.

We have asked a lot of people for their opinions and we keep going around in circles.:p

In an ideal world a schoolmaster/mistress would be better - but we have tried that and both failed their vettings!:mad:

Comments grateful received from NR guys and gals :) :)

[BNaturally]

Get another Vet and ask him or her to evaluate this horse for purchase.
There are many horses druged and you can see the real horse until, some few days later.
*When drawing up the contract for purchase, ask the owners for a trial period for the first month, where you can get you money back,if any problems are found.
This way you may see something, health issues or any other problems.

Do you have more of a detail histroy on this young one?
It seen strange that, a green horse could be so bombproof to hacking, everything unless,its been more training done and he not a real greenie.
Take him on a trial bases and I wish you luck.
I hope this helps.

[KateWooten]

I wouldn't worry too much that he's been overtrained - those big draft-types tend to be laid back, and if he's been introduced right, and he's been ridden out a lot with other older horses it would make sense that he's learnt from them that cars are not for spooking at.

The ideal situation is for you to buy an older horse, and for a more experienced rider to buy the youngster. However, newer riders, with their minds and hearts in the right place, access to good training, and the will to learn, on a quiet younger horse.... it's not the worst case scenario by a long way :) It's not like he's an unbroken 3 yr old, which yuo do see novices buying and regretting.

I would say, and it wouldn't work for everyone, but if you have a good feel for this horse, then have him properly vetted - you can run blood tests on him if you feel he's been drugged - and find out how your riding instructors feel about him as a horse for you. Then, if you decide to go ahead, throw yourself into it with all your heart and don't look back. You will find a way to make it work. Use the thinking side of your brain to do all the rational checks... then go with your heart.

[Whatanejit]

Bnaturally, as Kate said the Irish Draught is a known calm and sweet natured horse with big bone hence a good weight carrier.

It is hard to get a true history on some Irish horses. The current owner has just bought him straight from Ireland to bring on and sell.

In Ireland horses are backed at 2yrs do a little schooling / lunging and then basically are used for hunting 2 or 3 times a week. Usually they are rented out.

So for 3 years he has been socialised, jumped ditches, hedges, barbed wire etc. He knows how to walk, trot, canter and jump in a straight line.
Or so the story goes - we have no other history than what is 'usually' done with the Irish horse.

Maybe someone else has insider knowledge.

Since arriving at her yard - 3 weeks ago he has been hacked out for at least 1 hr a day. Having hacked out there yesterday we realised it is 90% roadwork.

We were passed by a bright yellow ambulance with blue flashing lights - no siren - and he, nor the other four horses batted an eyelid.

OH was on Kit, I was on a 4 yr old just over from Ireland who had arrived at the yard only 2 days. They were more interested in peoples drive ways, other horses and sheep than the traffic. They were both very alert, interested and excited to be out but absolutely unphased by traffic.

We were out for 1.5 hours then returned and I got on Kit just to get a feel for him and had a walk and trot around the school.

He responded well to the leg and to the seat for downward transitions but there was no notion of a nice bend in the corner - or any desire to go into the corner of the school. 20m circle was a bit of a rectangle. So I guess he just can't do the english school moves at the moment.

Just a little photo to keep you going...............

http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f270/Whatanejit/Kitstablesat.png


Would this take long for RI to introduce with OH and I doing hacking and our 'homework' with him in between her sessions?

There is a riding school interested in taking him due to his nature.

I will take your advice re the blood test, though. Yes he could have been drugged from Ireland, yes the current owner could have done it but I really trust her and would like to rule that out. The thing I would be worried about is that I have heard that a few calm Irish horses bought for their temperament got quieter and quieter over the year until a blood test was done and it was found that they had liver failure from ragwort poisoning - they must have eaten it as a baby.

I think I should just rule that out.

Anyway, thanks for your replies = OH and I have a big heart and will go into this with mind, soul and body.:)

xx

[shirley]

Go for it. Why does your Riding Instructor have to school him for you, it seems as though you are capable enough to do this for yourself. Her aids although very good will never feel quite the same as yours, so get him used to yours all the time, from the start. Getting him balanced / more moves etc will be hard work, but fun, and learning together always helps produce that certain bond between rider and their horse.
Loads and loads of hacking with youngsters. Four to five hacks for every one schooling session has been quoted to me in the past.
Sounds as though the future years are to be filled with loads and loads of fun!!! Good luck with things

[Whatanejit]

Oh, you have given me a nice warm glow, Shirley!!!!!!!!!!!

Thx for that :) :) :)

[DavidH]

Have to agree with Shirley, far better to school him yourself under watchful eye of RI if necessary.
Irish horses generally do tend to be unfazed by life. The irish generally have a very different attitude to horses. They tend to pander to the horses wims less. If a horse doesn't like something their attitude is ' Tough, learn to to deal with it' . This is very noticable in my ISH (8 years in Ireland). Anything startles him you get a small quick step sideways then carry on as if nothing happened. Wouldn't dream of saying no and backing off if he is unsure of something.

[Whatanejit]

Thanks David.

Seeing RI today and will see if she will at least go to see him just to do an assessment for us to see if we really would be having a schooling issue on our hands.
Not sure if we will listen to her anyway if she says no:p :p :p

If all ok, then do vetting next week and fingers crossed.

We saw two horses at yard last week - one week later both sold and both passed 5 stage vetting - very heartening for us to hear that.

Fingers crossed.

xx

[DavidH]

Thanks David.

Seeing RI today and will see if she will at least go to see him just to do an assessment for us to see if we really would be having a schooling issue on our hands.
Not sure if we will listen to her anyway if she says no:p :p :p

Erm, I would listen to her if she does say no :p
Always a good idea to get a second opinion for an experinced person. If she is prepared to do it, ask her to try and wind the horse up and see how he reacts (ie - ride it badly). She may not want to do this but it is something I do if looking for a horse for less experienced peeps. Gives you an idea of what could happen. ;)

[Tots N Dots]

The ideal situation is for you to buy an older horse, and for a more experienced rider to buy the youngster. However, newer riders, with their minds and hearts in the right place, access to good training, and the will to learn, on a quiet younger horse.... it's not the worst case scenario by a long way :) It's not like he's an unbroken 3 yr old, which yuo do see novices buying and regretting.
my parents did the "wrong" thing when I was about 14 (I had been riding since I was 7), I was quite immature and didn't know any better and my parents weren't to up on horses, they took me to see 3 horses in a paddock and said I could choose which one I had, 2 were broken and older and 1 was a unbroken 2 year old, I cant even remember what the 2 older ones were like, but the 2 yo chased my mum round the field as she had extra strong mints in her bag, (in a cheeky way not a bolshy way), and I fell in love! they caught him and stood him next to the stables, a piece of tarpaulin flew up in the wind and slapped him across the bum, he didn't bat an eye, we bought him, I had very little experience with youngsters but devoured every book I could lay my hands on, I spent hours with him, and did everything myself, we did send him away to be schooled but he just kept breaking out and trying to come the 4 miles home, I had to be fetched out of school as he would let anyone else catch him, (he never did this anywhere else and was always fine with other people!) so my parents deduced he wanted to be with me and brought him back again, we had our teething problems which to be honest were neither his fault or mine, I was lucky but it does agree with what KateWooton has said, I will also add that my current unbroken youngster who had seen no traffic when I got him, is amazing in traffic, I have to lead him the mile from our house to the field, which I do in a head collar with a pressure halter over the top just in case, he has done this trip about 3 times now, but I do wear a large yellow tabbard with "Baby horse please pass wide and slow" in huge letters on it, seems to help in most cases, you seem to have the best idea of learning more and getting help so I think you sound ideal,

[Whatanejit]

Not sure if we will listen to her anyway if she says no

Only joking about that one David hence the :p :p

We had a drink with RI last week and after hearing an hours worth of stories about horse buying we realised that she had not told us any stories with a happy ending :eek: :eek:

This amounts to the fact that it is a huge risk to buy young, old, experienced, not so but we should try and minimise the risks where possible.

We received a text from her afterwards saying - "sorry about being so negative remember this is supposed to be a fun time":cool:

I guess she is just trying to look out for us. ;)

[fitz]

In Ireland horses are backed at 2yrs do a little schooling / lunging and then basically are used for hunting 2 or 3 times a week. Usually they are rented out.

How do you know that this is what is done... Maybe this is what is done with some horses, but its by no means the rule.


Or so the story goes - we have no other history than what is 'usually' done with the Irish horse.



You dont have a clue what is 'usually' done with the Irish horse, you just have some stupid stereotypes on which to go on. This attitude drives me ballistic.

Have yet to read the other threads, just had to respond to these prejudices

[Tharg]

I`d have to agree with fits there.

[Whatanejit]

I've responded to your other rant Fits on a different thread.

It might have been nice if you were helpful instead of getting the wrong end of the stick.

No prejudice, offence or anything else intended - reputations are reputations and engrained for decades - nothing to do with me.

Breath in the anger, and breath out some love.

Enjoy the rest of your Sunday ;)

[toohorsemad]

Ok didn't read the whole thread but I think that the person who owned him last jsut probably used him for hack eg when out for a gallop now and again! I could be wrong but I know people who do it!

[Moomin]

He sounds lovely - go for it!

I as a novice/intermidiate bought a green Irish horse nearly 3 years ago and havent looked back - its been a journey and I'm so pleased I chose her (or rather she chose me!!)

I think the key - and you have more than satisfied this - is that you have the support and common sense to ask for help if you get a little lost along the way.

Good luck!

[fitz]

I've responded to your other rant Fits on a different thread.

It might have been nice if you were helpful instead of getting the wrong end of the stick.
;)

I didnt get the wrong end of the stick, I responded to what you thought was the 'usual' training of an irish horse, which is incorrect in my experience.

;)[/QUOTE]


No prejudice, offence or anything else intended - reputations are reputations and engrained for decades - nothing to do with me.

Breath in the anger, and breath out some love.

Enjoy the rest of your Sunday ;)

I had a lovely day, thank you, I rode up a mountain near Glendalough and it was lovely.

Anyway, to be 'constructive' as you asked, it sounds like you found a nice horse, who has the irish draught temperament, which is just wonderful. Go for him, as it sounds like you have lots of back up. I would really like to get an Irish Draught soon as they are such wonderful calm athletic horses.

[toohorsemad]

No prejudice, offence or anything else intended - reputations are reputations and engrained for decades - nothing to do with me.

Ok that was not fair what you said Whatanejit! Maybe the reputations you got weren't 100% correct. Are you saying that all imported irish horses are dodgy? Becuase thats the way I picked it up! And I know amazing horse that were sold told to england and whos to say that english horses that we buy aren't just as bad! You can get dodgy horses anywhere! And I'm sure there is plenty of dodgy horses in england aswell! Don't be so quick to judge! PS out of interest have you ever been to Ireland? Have you ever had a gallop on an irish xc course on an irish draught? I have and there is nothing dodgy about it! All the breeds from Ireland are known to have a good temperment with a willing atitude!

[KateWooten]

... well, she didn't say anything about this horse being dodgy, Irish horses in general being dodgy, this particular horse having a dodgy past, Irish draught horses not being good at xc, or imported Irish horses being dodgy.

What she said was that she had very little information about this horse's past, and was admitting that she was having to surmise a 'most likely history' for him based on the information she had. And she even asked for clarification from anyone who was more informed than she, in that same post.

The history she 'made up' for this horse, I surmise, was based on having spoken to the people she's buying him from - the importers. She understood from them, that there is a particular market for young horses, started in Ireland, specifcally for export to England. She then stated that as far as she knew, horses started for this market were backed at 2, and spent a lot of time riding out with other horses, rather than schooling.

Now, you all jump on her, and ask if she's prejudiced and thinks all Irish horses are dodgy ? What did you see in her imagined history for this horse that was dodgy ? Do you think horses shouldn't be backed at 2 ? Do you think they shouldn't be ridden out with other horses ? Do you think they should spend more time in the school ? Clearly you think there is something 'dodgy' about how she described the horse's possible start in life. Please enlighten me.

In any case, your responses are highly emotional and you have obviously taken it as a personal slur - which is a pity. I think you are misunderstanding her. Clearly, she does not believe all, or even this particular Irish horse is dodgy - the affection she has for him shines through ! She simply stated her perceived history of him, as a likely explanation for why he would be slightly stiff and uncoordinated in a small school. She was saying 'he hasn't done much indoor schooling, he's just a baby started out in the beautiful rolling hills of Ireland, stretching his legs and galloping free and enjoying the good life over there. ..At least that's what I understood :)

[Whatanejit]

Thanks Kate for that - at last a rational response.

Too Horse Mad - check out Fits' Irish horse rant and you will find out a little more about me.

In the meantime try not to hijack a perfectly rational thread looking for advice.
I'm sure the mods are watching this one as it has been below the belt at times.

An update on the horse I'm interested in ......................

Taking RI to see him on Sat morning for a professional objective eye as I tend to get soppy about the sweet natured one.

If all goes well we will proceed to vetting next week.

Hope you all have a great Monday.

:D :D

[toohorsemad]

Thanks Kate for that - at last a rational response.

Too Horse Mad - check out Fits' Irish horse rant and you will find out a little more about me.


I didn't mean to attack you or anything! I toke it up wrong, which is a honest mistake so I am sorry if I have cause any offence! Hope the vetting goes well

[Gabrielle]

Woah everyone!:D

Firstly I love Irish horses. Can only commend how laid back the majority are. I worked at a dealers a few years ago who had only imports from Ireland. Only one or two had 'problems' which could have come from the transportation or anything. You can and very often do get these problems anywhere.

As for your potential new horse. I am a firm believer that if you click you should go with it. This horse is a 5 year old. Therefore has some experience. I buy 2 year olds. He sounds as if he needs a lot of work but hey thats something else for you to do together was well as hacking, potential shows etc.

I vote yes!!!!!:D :) :cool:

[Whatanejit]

Thanks Gabrielle.

His background attracts me too him. It is my first time ownership dilemma that is cause for concern.

I think we can do it though and will do our best for him.

Trying to stop myself from getting v.excited again.

:D :D :D

TooHorseMad - thanks - all under the bridge.;)

[Gabrielle]

Just think on this.

I was a novice 16 year old (25 years ago) (Ouch) when my parents took me to buy my first pony. We went to a now closed horse auction at Abergavenny on a Saturday, around about 25th March 1981. We bought a lovely little (13hh ish) 3 year old (apparently) and took him home. I had not had any experience in looking after a horse/pony on my own before. My parents knew nothing. (by the way no problems with roads or traffic either)

3 months down the line a lovely 14.1hh 2 year old pony was somehow in my stable (in the back garden which was approx 1/2 acre with two stables and turn out to 7 acre field I was sharing with two other experienced girls). Being the young person I was I didn't slow anything down but progressed as fast as he would. If he wasn't any good at something straight away left it till next year! Then would try something else. After a 4 year relationship pony and I won the local Open show (not novice as I had anticipated on the day but the open). I had no YO to help, no local know-it-all or anything.

From this experience I gleened that I would always buy youngsters and bring on and break. I some how got to the stage I would buy them break them and sell when they were 5 years old (this is where my problems with bringing a novice horse in the showjumping world).

I just went with my gut instincts and logical thought.

Sorry rambled a bit there didn't I?

All the best and if you want it and have good knowledgable friends why not?

[Wobblydeb]

I can really understand why you are so keen on this horse :) I've ridden a horse like this at my riding school for the past few months, and he is my absolute favourite because he has such a calm, non-spooky personality. He's about 7/8 years old.

He arrived via a previous owner who had bought him as an Irish import, and not done much schooling with him - mostly hacking and hunting. The school owner agreed to buy him because she could see how calm and tolerant he was in inexperienced hands, despite being green in the school. He's clearly some form of ID cross (well-built grey, too deep in the girth for TB/Connemara cross).

Last autumn, I was thinking I would love to buy him because of his personality. I did worry about the schooling side though, because although he was reasonably balanced he didn't readily accept a contact, make decent transitions or know about lateral work. I know I haven't got the experience to teach that! I also thought that even if I paid for professional schooling I would somehow "undo" it, because I'm a novice myself :o

I've since been proved totally wrong ;) I think he has had some schooling from the YO, but he's still been rented out for hunting, and been ridden by novices/intermediates in lessons. He has come on in leaps and bounds, and still has that wonderful personality :D Only recently I've seen him learning alongside us novices how to do turn on the hindquarters. The instructor makes sure we're asking correctly, and that we praise him when he gets it right, and off we go! I got some beautiful tries the other day, and some equally impressive half-pass when I got it wrong.

So I say it is do-able, and personality goes a long way in my book :D The only thing I wonder is if at 5 you will have some "Kevins" to cope with. At 8 years old I knew that my favourite boy had at least grown out of them ;)

Oh if only I had bought him.... :p