Steering when cantering

[Rob26]

Such a novice question but when you're cantering how do you steer? I would have thought shifts in body weight would be used much more?

[Rob26]

Wow... no one?

OK, I know I need to use my legs, guessing inside leg on girth, outside just behind... it was more the seat and weight aids I need more info on...

Anyone? where's DavidH when you need him!

[Mehitabel]

well, in theory it is exactly the same as in walk and trot - that is, what you eventually work towards it to do nearly everything with seat and weight, so you look like you are sitting doing nothing at all.
your bodyweight doesn't have any more or less effect in canter than any other pace though.

is there a specific movement you want ot know about the seat adis for in canter?

[teabiscuit]

This is only what i've been told- first RI told me to use my wieght, the result was me swinging my seat to the outside somehow as i tried to put wieght on my inside seatbone. current RI told me to stop being such an effert (politely i might add) and to concentrate on sitting up straight with even weight on each seatbone and just to turn my body in the direction that i wanted to go, thus giving my horse a nicer time. just by turning my upper body (slightly) my weight shifted slightly to the inside seatbone and i didn't have the unfortunate side effect of a listing backside :o
I'm sure David H and others will give you far better advice when they log on...until then...

[Rob26]

So far in walk and trot, weight and seat aids haven't really been introduced properly and i wish i'd just get told the whole story in the first place!

I'm guessing just turning your head in the direction you want to go and maybe slightly tilting your upper body in that direction would be enough of a weight/seat aid? am i right?



is there a specific movement you want ot know about the seat adis for in canter?

All of them please! :D I just want to get the whole picture!

I need a good riding book!

[Mehitabel]

well, the whole theory of weight and seat aids is a long story! :D

the basics, though - sit up straight, wherever you are now, and put both feet flat on the floor. you should feel you are sitting on two pressure points in your bum - these are your seatbones. the feel is obviously slightly different in a chair to on a horse, but the principle is the same.

you want the seatbones to be equally weighted, to begin with, so shift about until they are.

then, turn your head and bring your inside shoulder back, as you do when riding a turn and feel what happens - you should feel the 'inside' seatbone go forward. this is the seat aid for turning. you can replicate that by clenching that one bumcheek - this is how you ask for a turn in a more controlled way than turning your head. the harder you clench, the more the seatbone moves and the sharper turn you get.

the art is to only have the seatbone moving.

as you sit, collapse one side - as you might when you slouch to the inside round a turn on a horse. feel the difference doing this and moving the seatbone with your upper body staying upright. it's a very different feel to the change of weight, and that is what will unbalance the horse.

overall, your hips mirror the horse's hips, and your shoulders mirror the horse's shoulders round a turn. so think 'inside shoulder up and back' to stop you collapsing to the inside as you turn, and think 'advance inside hip slightly'. it's not enough of a physical movement to make you visibly twist in the saddle, it';s more of a feeling than anything else.

http://historicalfact.com/~es/pony%20pictures/barebackcanter2.jpg

i'm cantering a circle here, and you can just see my outside shoulder, as i've brought my inside one up and back (could be a bit more up).

[Rob26]

would you use that for all gaits? i'm guessing yes?

Would you still use your leg aids at the same time? and what should I be doing with the reins?

It's strange because in walk i'd put pressure on the rein for the direction I wanted to go, but i've read in canter, you'd relax the inside rein while maintaining the outside rein?

Am I confusing myself? :)

[Mehitabel]

would you use that for all gaits? i'm guessing yes? yep. practice in walk, it takes a while to get used to your bum being the primary aid.

Would you still use your leg aids at the same time? and what should I be doing with the reins? yes. both leg and rein become more subtle, refining aids. instead of turning the head and asking the body ro follow, you're directly influencing the body. reins are, at this stage essentially decoration, when you are riding off your seat. you will be using them, long-term, for collection and refinement - degree of bend, precise positioning of the head - but you don't need to think about that at this stage in your riding career. the leg is still important - the legs control the hindquarters. so at the moment, i presume that to ask for a turn, you hold your outside leg back slightly to control the quarters - you still need to do this, and for instance bring the leg back to ask for canter. what you will find is that 'outside leg back' translates into 'inside hip forwards' - so if you are actually controlling the hip, you need less leg back.it still needs to control the turn though, stop the horse's bum swinging out.

i've read in canter, you'd relax the inside rein while maintaining the outside rein?

i think you are reading ahead of yourself. eventually, you use the inside rein for very very little, and the outside rein maintains the outline - this is true in all paces, not just canter. but for the minute, you don't need to think about that -that is for when you are doing more advanced and subtle things.

[Rob26]

I'm one of these people who want all the information now... I love knowing what's what!

That's explained it perfectly, I get it now!

Thank you :D

[Rob26]

One more thing...

If you're clenching butt cheeks, which one do you clench for going right and which one for left?

[Mehitabel]

right to go right, left to go left! the horse wants you square on top - so will move to go back under you when you shift that seatbone.

[Rob26]

Thank you again... gonna give it a shot next lesson! :)

[teabiscuit]

just don't over do it else you'll get a listing posterior (like i did) too :)

[cvb]

rob

be careful you don't interpret the "clench" too literally - this is another of those subjects where we are trying to use words to describe a feel, and its not easy !

so sitting on your chair again (as described before), clench and hold one bum really really tight... now notice what it does to other muscles - to thigh, lower back etc etc

now when you are riding you still need to be able to: use aids, absorb movement, and basically ride !

So if you really clench up, you create a block - a brace - which may result in you bouncing (as unable to absorb the movement) and having trouble using aids.

So - still in the chair - find out what the minimum effort is to get that hip to move - now as you have that "light clench" (for want of a better word), check that you cab still move ! (the opposite leg, that leg, lean forward and back - just check that you haven't "locked up" !)

I personally don't use a "clench" because I find I lock up - but thats my reaction to that particular word. You'd probably find that what Mehitabel and I do is very similar, but we use different verbal cues, different images and so on - to achieve the same result :p What you need ti do is find the word or image that gives the result and feel - not easy when you are trying to find the feel for the first time !

[Rob26]

If you could see me now, sitting here clenching my butt cheeks! :D

I see what you mean though, when you clench too much everything else does too... i'll experiment next lesson to see what happens, I have to be careful cos I bounce a lot if i'm not relaxed!

So in theory you should be able to move the horse round the school just using leg/seat/weight aids without reins?

[Mehitabel]

So in theory you should be able to move the horse round the school just using leg/seat/weight aids without reins?

not just in theory, it is eminently doable. one of the first things i make my students do in any lesson is hold reins at the buckle and ride serpentines and trantisions. when i ride, i also often knot my reins or hold them at the buckle to make sure i am not slipping into sloppy habits of using reins for steering.

you won't necessarily have the finesse - your intended 15m circle might be wobbly and not perfectly round, and your serpentine loops may not be dead equal - but you can certainly go roughly where you want and in the pace that you want with no reins.

[Skib]

Rob, I have some thoughts here because I am a novice rider and want to know everything. Though I postponed reading anything for the first two years apart from the Pony Club Handbook. If you do buy a book, like Learn to Ride with the BHS, Getting the Most from Riding Lessons by Michael Smith, or Perry Wood's Real Riding: How to Ride in Harmony with Horses, you will find that there are many different ways of doing most things on a horse.
As you continue you will have different teachers too - and their views may differ as well.
My first teacher taught me to steer by looking where I wanted to go. With no rein. But I did as I was told by my first teacher. And really recommend it to start with. Particularly if it is a matter of doing less than you might expect from the books.
Riding a horse is not very like driving a car. Because you are interacting with an animal. More like taking a dog for a walk (if you have a dog). How you commmunicate with a horse and whether the horse heeds you, may depend on what the horse has been trained to do.
The better trained your horse or dog, and the better your communication skills, the less you need to do. Later, when you ride a horse that has difficulty going easily on one rein, then you may need to draw on a wider repertoire, using additional weight or leg pressure to support the horse.

I've never learned seat aids. Nor clenched my buttocks. Not all teachers use seat. I currently use a combination of rein and leg (calf).
But in the early days, I know that if I was crooked on the horse, he would veer to one side. I needed to make sure I was central and straight, as Mehitabel says. You say you bounce in canter if you are not relaxed. Me too. And bouncing, may shift one off centre on the horse, and then he goes crooked. So the more you try to do and the more you try to steer, the worse it may get. My solution was to stay relaxed and to do as little as possible. My first teacher taught me minimalist riding (which was not user friendly for a beginner) but it has remained the style I like.
So failing to tell you things is not necessarily a bad thing. It may be that, like me, you are being taught in a very modern manner, and that is why it does not include everything you expected or which was learned by people who started riding twenty years ago.

[laura jeanne]

What am I doing wrong? When I turn to look toward the left, my left hip goes back, not forward.

[Mehitabel]

yep - as skib says, there are many many ways to skin this particular cat. looking where you are going does exactly the same thing as my bum-clenching description - as you turn your head it shifts your weight, in the same way as clenching the bum cheek. putting your outside leg back also does the same thing - shifts the pelvis, but instead of bringing the inside forward, it brings the outside backward.

we're all doing the same thing, just explaining it in different ways and with reference to different parts of the body.

[Mehitabel]

What am I doing wrong? When I turn to look toward the left, my left hip goes back, not forward.
could be that you are collapsing the ribcage backwards - also, this is one thing that can feel different on a horse to sitting in a chair as your legs are in front of you, not under you as they are on a horse. try on a horse as well.

[cvb]

What am I doing wrong? When I turn to look toward the left, my left hip goes back, not forward.

laura

where are you turning from and with ?

Try this. Sit straight - now we're going to turn to the left but wait !! don't move for a second.. breathe full into your ribs, check there is an equal gap between rib and hip on each side, exhale slowly. Try not to let everything drop and droop when you exhale. Imagine you have bubble sitting under your ribs and on top of your hips and you can't squish it :)

Now don't turn yet, but look where you are going to turn with your eyes (slowly) i.e. the turn starts with the eyes. There will come a point where you can't "turn" any further - don't force it - and now allow your head to follow the look, and then slowly work down the body allowing the turn to "trickle" downward.. imagine each vertebrae slowly taking on the turn...

at each stage, note what is happening with the hip.

If I turn too low down, and include the hip - I get inside hip back ;)

how about you ? where does it happen with you ? can you feel any blocks anywhere ?

[SupaTania]

Quick question - How do you use seat and weight aids, when posting?!

I've been riding for 1 1/2years and never really thought much about it, and have been able to in a sense control a horses steering - at least at the minimum. Until yesterday when I tried a 4 year old paint who just would not turn for the life of me. And pulling on the inside reign was so difficult for me since I am not used to riding so heavy handed.

[cvb]

when posting, you are still in the saddle for aorund 50% of the time, plus you still have contact through lower leg and hands 100% of the time.

In addition, your weight may be "out of the saddle" but it is still be born by the horse - so you can still use it as an influence. For example, change the tempo of your rise/post and it will affect the horse :)

but is the issue with the paint really to do with posting or was it there all the time ?

[carrimclaren]

I'm one of these people who want all the information now... I love knowing what's what!

That's explained it perfectly, I get it now!

Thank you :D

That's always a good attitude to have as it shows that you're willing to learn and understand as well but just make sure that you don't overload yourself with the information. I was exactly the same as you when i first started lessons and riding again but i tried to take in that much stuff and also started trying to do stuff that was too much out of my limits as a novice. Sometimes it's best to just learn the basics and try and get them as perfect as you can and then move on in the stages as i found i did more harm than good in some of the moves as i had misinterperated the aids and confused the hell out of my mare :rolleyes:

I did really like asking the how and why questions though and reading the books to try and further the education :)

[laura jeanne]

I'm just having a little trouble trying that out because my chair at work has a contoured mesh seat. I see what you mean though, I guess I am turning my whole body instead of just the top part. I'll try it at home tonight in a regular chair.

It's too bad when work gets in the way of horse-riding experimentation!

[teabiscuit]

it's difficult - hence the strange posture i got when i tried too hard. i found that not trying so hard was better. in fact i just thought about having equal weight on each seatbone and turning in the direction i wanted to go with my upper body. i tried imagining i had an eye in the middle of my chest that i used to see where i was going.but i always try to make sure i don't do any of these things to enthusiastically - i try to aim for subtlety, for the horses benifit, not sure i get there though!

[wanabe]

This is NOT a rhetorical or flippant question! :) What's wrong with using the reins to steer with in canter?

[wanabe]

As for this hips business. When mehitabel said the hips go forward, I took that to mean they go forward IN RELATION TO the body. The hips don't actually go anywhere -- as they're stuck to the chair (or the horse's back), which isn't moving.

[Mehitabel]

This is NOT a rhetorical or flippant question! :) What's wrong with using the reins to steer with in canter?
well, ideally we want not to use the reins to steer at all, in any pace. we want to askusing bodyweight as it means we can influence the horse directly where their movement happens - in the body - by shifting our weight on their backs slightly. this has several advantages.

1- we run no risk of asking too hard on the reins - the mouth is sensitive and we want ot keep it that way, and not hurt the horse.

2 - the less we use the reins for the better really, tied to 1, and also because then the horse is more likely to want to reach into a steady and guiding contact, which is what we want when we get to the stage of training the horse.

3 - we can use the reins, if we're not steering with them, to ask for more subtle things like flexing and bend (not necessarily connected with direction) and different degrees of collection and head position.

[laura jeanne]

M- you are right about me collapsing my rib cage backwards!

Wanabe, your butt is stuck to the seat but your hip (seat) bone can certainly move back and forth. OMG i'ts a good thing I have a room to myself here!

[Purple Hugs]

Am hoping some of this will make sense to me soon! :)
This is the great thing about this board.. everyone asks the right questions! :p

[wanabe]

I don't see how your hips can move on a chair. (?) Sure, they move on a horses back (in walk, for instance) because the horses back is moving around and carrying the hips alongs, but, unless you are sliding on the saddle, I can't see how your hips are moving with respect to the horse. :(

[laura jeanne]

Wanabe, your butt is stuck to the seat but your hip (seat) bone can certainly move back and forth. OMG i'ts a good thing I have a room to myself here!

That doesn't make sense to you? If not, then I'll try explaining something about computers to you. I'm even worse at that.

[wanabe]

Hah! Well, perhaps the whole conversation is over my head. :)

But sitting here, if I turn my body to the left, say, my hips stay in place on the chair. My hip bones don't move, but my left shoulder goes back -- which means that relatively speaking, my hip and seat bones have gone forward.

[Mehitabel]

well, when i clench that one bumcheek, or move my head, by seatbone definitely does move, inside my body. it's more noticeable when i clench the bumcheek - with the head turning, it is more a 'weighting' rather than actual moving forward. the flesh of my backside doesn't move, but the seatbone does. if i sit on my hands and do it, i can feel the pressure point of the seatbone move.

[wanabe]

Wow, too advanced for me then. :o For now, I'm sticking with the reins, which I believe is all my instructor has mentioned me doing so far (other than using the legs).

[cvb]

I don't see how your hips can move on a chair. (?) Sure, they move on a horses back (in walk, for instance) because the horses back is moving around and carrying the hips alongs, but, unless you are sliding on the saddle, I can't see how your hips are moving with respect to the horse.

wanabe - I think you are thinking on too big a scale - this is not about a visible movement, its about how the distribution of weight through those contact points (your derierre) are altered by body position and how.

and before you ask - yes the horse will be able to feel that - even with a saddle (english or western) between you and the horse ;)

as for the reins question - its already been answered but I wanted to add...

a lot depends on what you want to use the reins for... using the reins to steer is quite a big noisy "signal". if you then want to also use them for something more subtle and refined (asking for softness and flexion) - that more subtle "signal" can get lost in the noise ;)

So the general idea is that we use the aids we have (natural and artificial) in the most effective way.

When people first start to ride (a) they often don't have the control and awareness to use their body to steer, and aren't using the reins for the subtle signals - so they use the reins and (b) they are often on "safe" beginners horses that are trained to tune out a lot of the inadvertant "noise" a beginner has, so the riders need to use stronger, clearer less subtle signals with such horses.

I have to say I always struggle a bit with the fact that we start teaching people one way, and then change it all later on :rolleyes:

[carrimclaren]

I have to say I always struggle a bit with the fact that we start teaching people one way, and then change it all later on :rolleyes:

I must admit i'm always 50/50 about this. Sometimes in my lessons/schooling now i sit and wonder whether i'd be a different kettle of fish riding wise if i'd been taught properly in the first place but the more i learn the more i'm sure that it would have confused the hell out of me when starting out (it still manages to nowadays) :) I think like you've already said a lot depends on the horses that people learn on. I've pretty much had to re-educate myself over the last year with some helpful advice from friends on the way so like i said it's 50/50.

[laura jeanne]

Carrimclaren,
I've thought about that too. Wouldn't it be better to just learn the "real" basics such as we've been talking about in this thread from the beginning? OH says no, it's better to do a little of everything first (W/T/C and a little jumping) and get a feeling for the whole thing.

I remember that my first instructor used to have us turn the horse's head toward the outside to get the horse out on the rail. After reading in books and here on NR how that was just plain backwards, I asked her about it and she said that Later, we would learn the correct way. Why not just start out the right way?? People are in too much of a hurry.

Besides, at my age and with the pathetic amount of time that I have to ride, and no horse of my own, I will probably never be that good a rider. But I still love it more than anything else I have ever done, so it's okay and I just try to enjoy each time I ride and learn a little something. Everyone always says that when you are around horses, you are always teaching them something but the opposite is also true!

[Mehitabel]

there are a few reasons that we don't teach 'properly' from the beginning.

1 - you need a certain amount of 'feel' to ride subtly and correctly. feel only comes with time, except for a few blessed individuals, myself not among them even slightly.

2 - you need a certain amount of muscle control, muscle memory and strength - not something that most beginners have.

3 - as said above, mistakes are made by novice riders, there is a lot of noise among the signal and you need a certain type of horse to put up with that willingly - often not the same type of horse who will willingly and consistently listen to subtle aids. to use these aids successfully you need to cut out the noise and be consistent and accurate - things you need to learn.

4 - it's difficult to do - that puts a lot of people off when they are learning. not everyone takes riding seriously, is willing to put the hours in and has aspirations beyond staying on at three paces and having fun in the countryside. this ties in to the discussions we've had on here countless times about riding schools and riding school ponies and general standards and ways of instruction. it costs money and time to do it properly, and a large proportion of people are not prepared to spend either.

5 - related to 4 - it'd take a lot longer without much visible progress, and that is not something a lot of learners will take.

[cvb]

I've been thinking about this in the meantime - and agree with Mehitabel :) but also want to say that a prerequisite to using seat and weight aids and body position to control direction, speed etc is having a balanced independent seat.

so thats what gets taught first. but while we are teaching it the rider still needs to have some control. So they get taught controls they can use while developing balance and independent seat.

Once they have the pre-requisite in place, they should then move on to the next stage of learning - but I wonder if this is where a lot of people get "stuck" ? I'll bet this is often where people move to a new instructor or rising school !

[dotsanddashes]

It's too bad when work gets in the way of horse-riding experimentation!


Just had to comment on this one..........work getting in the way of horse riding experimentation........I spent most of yesterday and some of this morning with a foalcam.com page up on my work computer watching a foal be born in California!!! Now I am sitting here reading this post and trying all the different methods..........how do I explain that when my review comes up???????:D

[wanabe]

Well, I suspect Rob26 got more information than he expected when he asked his original question! :)

not everyone takes riding seriously, is willing to put the hours in and has aspirations beyond staying on at three paces and having fun in the countryside.

Hey, that's me, except I want to stay on at FOUR paces and do at least one 4 foot jump someday! :)

Anyway, I've found the comments about a sort of shifting of gears having to take place in what we're taught very interesting.