Alternative method to join up?

[Laura2184]

Hi guys,

Sorry not very well educated on this kind of stuff so can somebody help me? I tried Join up with my 14' pony at the weekend, my friend at the yard has done it with him and it worked really well. I tried it and he was extremely aggressive towards me. constantly getting in my personal space and sort of managed to turn the tables round by charging at me.. :mad: My pony quite obviously thinks he is the boss.. Is there any other way of showing him that I am the dominant one without putting my life in danger :eek:

Any help with this would be really good. :)

[cvb]

Laura

We have a Fell Pony who is quite stressed by being at liberty. I found this out when I started loose jumping him. In his worry, he gets quite aggressive - which is not funny.

But if I work him on line, using - for example - parelli methods - I can keep his front end towards me and have some control over his feet.

A programme such as this takes you stepwise through the "how to"s - which sounds like it would be good for you, helping you work on body posture etc to look confident ;)

There are a number of programmes in this area. Do some research and find out which have people close to you, which sounds most like what you want to do..

some names: Parelli Natural Horsemanship, Silversands Natural Horsemanship, Quantuum Savvy, Equine Ethology,... and I probably missed some as well....

[Laura2184]

Thanks CVB,

It was quite dangerous towards the end, he spun round and kicked his back legs out and just brushed past my leg.

When I lunge him, sometimes he cooperates and is really good but other times he rears and gets in my space. :mad:

He's only 4 so maybe this has something to do with it?

[cvb]

Thanks CVB,

It was quite dangerous towards the end, he spun round and kicked his back legs out and just brushed past my leg.

When I lunge him, sometimes he cooperates and is really good but other times he rears and gets in my space. :mad:

He's only 4 so maybe this has something to do with it?

age may be a reason, but its not an excuse ;)

after all, young children may not be able to handle a knife and fork - but we don't expect to see adults struggling with knife and fork so they have to learn how ;)

there's a parelli quote that goes something like

don't get mad, get even......... tempered ! ;)

you need to be calm, consistent and assertive - but that can be a bit difficult if the horse's heels are whislting past your ear :eek:

so work to get his feet moving wher YOU want before it gets to that stage ;)

[Kate F.]

As CVB says, I think you need to get control of the feet with the horse on a halter first. Unless you are very quick and experienced in reading the horse it can be quite dangerous to start with the horse loose.

Parelli is one way - you'll also find lots of groundwork exercises, as well as the key steps to ellicit from the horse, on my website at www.harmony-project.net

I think you need to start there and establish your personal space with the horse on the halter, then move on to loose work.

Good luck!

[Tuff_up]

i have a 4 year old mare and she used to sound just like your pony. your lucky my first time being with her she kicked me. the next time i was more aware i guess. any way horses don't really know that they are bigger than you and more powerful. so i recommend round pen and a lunging whip with a really long tail. when he charges at you take the whip and whack it at him bite him with it. horses in the wild don't just run away they stand up and say there the boss. a join up is much like two horses you being one of the horses and your pony being another playing for dominance. i use a little bit of Chris Irwins method and its worked for me. my experiences with my mare is that she doesn't show any sign of rearing up till shes right infront of you then bang hooves in the face my face of course. when ever he gets in your space send him away with a whack of the whip. it doesn't hurt all that much but they learn quickly and gain respect for you quickly too. my trainor and i call the whip the persuader lol

[Yann]

Tuff_up, I don't personally like the sound of that. It strikes me that if things aren't as they should be in the relationship with the horse then often the wrong thing to do is to set up a situation where the horse feels directly challenged and has no choice but to settle it with its hooves. If the handler isn't skilled in reading with and dealing with the horse (as appears the case in the original post) then it's a recipe for disaster. As much as anything the horse is confirmed in its advantage over the handler. I think you can achieve the same results if not more by doing exercises that quietly move the feet, working with the horse and rewarding small efforts rather than trying to challenge and dominate it. It might take longer and take more patience and tact. Whips have no place in horse training IMHO, not in the context you describe.

[KateWooten]

I disagree, Yann.

A horse is a big animal, well-versed in reading the body-language of other horses, and geared towards making upward progress through a herd situation. If, in your relationship with the horse, he sees himself as the boss of you, and is challenging you - charging, kicking, rearing ... then this has to be sorted out as a high priority. No amount of gentle exercises will sort this out painlessly. IMO, that approach only extends the difficult and challenging times.

I had already made this mistake with my little mare. She was very unhappy being the boss of me - boss hoss is a job for an older mare, not a little 3 yr old, scared and on her own. She was very unhappy with the role. She needed me to step up. One trip to ER should have been enough - she charged and kicked me full in the face. I then worked with her for 6 months on the line (Parelli games etc) without actually getting to the heart of the matter. I always had the feeling she was just 'going through the motions' with me. Not only did we have regular 'discussions' about what I was asking from her, but also her movements were dull, lifeless - she was never fully engaged with the task in hand. Half her mind was still busy with the issue of who was the boss here.

I brought a more experienced trainer in. He sent her round the round pen in no uncertain terms. He never had to strike her, in fact he didn't even have a lunge whip - his presence and energy were enough. She had some stuff to go through. It was far from 'nice' or easy to watch. He had to match her aggression - not with aggression - but with the same amount of energy. And that is a lot. I had no clear image of how much energy a man can bring to a situation to match my little mare standing upright and waving her arms at him :o Although he didn't use a whip - he had his 'flag' and a lariat - the effect was the same. He could throw the lariat to extend his personal space. That's what the lunge-whip does for you. It's an extension of your sphere of influence. Personally, I don't use one, I just have a thin string on a schooling whip - but it's the same thing. not for bashing the horse, but for both parties knowing that you have extra resources to back up your requests for respect of your space.

My mare put up a lot of fight. I would have fled ( <- there, you can see how I got myself into the mess in the first place!) ... but he didn't ... within 20 minutes my little mare arched her pretty neck, had bounce in her stride, trit-trotted towards him and would do anything for him.

The next week I took my unbroke unrideable scary rearing mare on a trail ride with a bunch of other young horses, and other 'problem case riders' ... past deer, scary objects, along a road, through her first creek ... she was by far the best behaved of the youngsters - even when all around her were napping or shying, I just sat there with her, all relaxed, singing our happy song, and she just kept right on listening to me and accepting my leadership and reassurance.

My point (albeit a rambling one) is that you can fight for years at a low level with who's boss, but that's a miserable situation for everyone. My mare was never hit, or frightened. She had a very uncomfortable 20 minutes for sure, but she is immeasurably happier for it. Sometimes, you've just got to work through it.

[cvb]

Kate

I do hear what you say - and do think that getting a more experienced person in (qualified, insured ) is also a good idea.

But the handler needs to learn as well - in a situation they can control and have a certain degree of safety in.

KateF has commented before on a horse she had that didn't truely connect while in a halter. This wasn't an agression issue tho - so somewhat easier to just remove the halter and work there.

The fell pony I mentioned - sometimes there will be situations when he is loose and I need to approach him... and he gets worried. Because of the other work I have done with him (on line) I have a structure and a "language" I can use with him so i get his front end and soft eyes rather than his back end and a pair of heels !

His behaviour could be seen as agressive and threatening, but it isn't - its a worried insecure horse. If i went in all BIG BOSS, it would push him further into worry and anxiety - and the behaviour would escalate. Whereas if I actually act like a leader and just ask him to come to me (but with the right "words") - the anxiety goes away and so does the behaviour.

[Yann]

No amount of gentle exercises will sort this out painlessly. IMO, that approach only extends the difficult and challenging times.

I used the term quietly, not gently, not exactly the same thing, the point I was making was that with many horses doing groundwork and gradually instilling the idea of control of the feet is prefereable to getting into situations of outright confrontation such as has happened here with a botched join up. Don't get me wrong, we have to be in charge and have the final say, but there's more than one way of getting it. If groundwork is being done right (especially PNH) and isn't working and the horse is still dangerous or unhandlable the best thing is to get professional help.

In the context of the original post my reply would be (as others have) don't do join up, do groundwork instead. The eventual result will be pretty much the same.

[Francis Burton]

A horse is ... geared towards making upward progress through a herd situation.
This is frequently stated, but what is the actual evidence for it? This isn't a frivolous question - I have read a fair bit about equine behaviour and social structure, and have spent hours watching behaviour domestic herds. My impression is that horses don't spend significant time vying for higher rank; nor are they particularly motivated to achieve a high rank.

Furthermore, in my relationship with horses, I am pretty sure that I am not viewed as another horse - and certainly not as a rival or challenge, even though I am assuredly in control.

[Tootsie4U]

What about the horse who is the lowest horse on the ladder, who's been bitten, kicked and shunned over and over, and finally is introduced to another horse who quicky becomes low man on the totem pole? Suddenly and usually immediately, he goes from being the push over to joining in with bullying the newest low ranking horse.

Its safe to say thats a fair statement, at least with some horses in some instances.

[Tuff_up]

my bad the whip is not to really punish your horse but more as an extended arm. it will help with lead change and soon you won't need the thing again its more to show your horse no don't go that way turn around its hard to explain. and the best thing is to get some experienced help. but still if your horse is charging at you i think thats a bad habit and should be punished and i wouldn't want to punish that with my hand so i mentioned the whip as a punishment helper so for you guys that took me the wrong way all horses done in natural horse man ship way in my area have been done this way and they have all been sooo much better so i guess again you just have to go with your gut sometimes and remember all horses are different.

[FRED]

Do you guys ever wonder if herd behaviour/pecking order in the natural world for horses, is ALSO influenced by food,water, health,age and HERD stability. By influenced, I mean horses DON'T SEE THE NEED, kicking/biting seven bells out of each other when the conditions don't require dominance.
I personaly suspect,far to much of natural, is overlooked by Natural.I guess if you can spend hours watching a herd, you may understand.
:)

[Kate F.]

I think Fred and Francis are right. The herd order is usually stable and there is very little vying for higher position. The exception here is stallions - the higher ranking stallion gets the mares and there is a certain "number 1" drive in some stallions. But generally, the drive to be "top dog" - is just that - PREDATOR behaviour. Also much overlooked is the enormous difference between stallions/geldings and mares. In behavioural terms they are almost different animals - but you rarely hear people acknowledging that!

We see a lot more interaction in domestic horses than in wild ones because the herds are "man made" - we decide who's going to be in which herd, or rather in which space, not the horses, and secondly the space is often confined. When we make a "herd" of, say, 10 horses - they may well divide themseves into two smaller "sub-herds" and we will see interaction between the 2 herds - a sort of microcosm of natural life.

Studying herds is part of it, Fred, but there are still people who can look at a herd forever and still interpret everything they see in human terms and therefore totally miss the point of what being a horse is all about! It's only when we can let go of our "hunter-gatherer" nature and look at the herd with an open mind that you really start to see patterns that are consistent and make sense.

That's my early morning 6 pennyworth! Have a great day!

[cvb]

What about the horse who is the lowest horse on the ladder, who's been bitten, kicked and shunned over and over, and finally is introduced to another horse who quicky becomes low man on the totem pole? Suddenly and usually immediately, he goes from being the push over to joining in with bullying the newest low ranking horse.

Its safe to say thats a fair statement, at least with some horses in some instances.

sure - but working out order at the bottom doesn't mean the horse suddenly starts challenging everyone above him...

seen this recently with our new filly joining. Dudley the Fell is sorting out where he is (he's the bottom, and possible an omega if they exist in horse herds). But Rosie vs Fi and Rosie vs Red seems to be sorted. (don't ask me in who's favour....but they are all getting along without argy bargy)

[pico]

As others have already said - horses, as far as I've observed, do not constantly worry about their postition in the herd hierarchy. In fact from what I've seen the words like "herd hierarchy", "pecking order", "upward progress", "ladder", etc. are a bit misleading, as they imply a strict order of dominance, rather than the far more fluid situation I think is the case at the middle level of the herd at least. By fluid I don't mean that the horses are always jockeying to be in a postition above each other and the order switches around - I mean they don't seem to be bothered much about "who's on top/who goes first" in many situations, and that in other cases which horse always goes first depends on the situation. This sort of situational fluid hierarchy is much more obvious, and thus more easily observed, in colonies of cats, by the way - due no doubt to the fact that cats are only loosely social compared to herd animals like horses or pack animals like dogs. It's also observable in the behaviour of the most easily available social animal for any of us to study... humans! ;)
"Pecking order" as an term comes from observations of chickens, btw. Chickens are birds, not mammals... dogs also have more strict adherance to a hierarchy from what I recall, but that makes sense that they might NEED to, as their way of obtaining food requires a lot more teamwork than that of horses does. It's not only a predator behaviour (as was rightly pointed out) but even more specifically a pack-hunting predator behaviour.
I think of herd order as a somewhat amorphous blob, but which does have a relatively small, and more defined "top" (and a noticeable "bottom-most group" too. )
Some horses are of course more inclined than others, due to their personality, to want to be near the top, and thus expend more energy on vying for postition trying to get there. If you were mostly watching the behaviour relative to the rest of the herd of such a horse you'd get a very diffeent picture of how important herd rank is to horses than if you were mostly watching the specific behaviour of a "can't be bothered really" sort


Furthermore, in my relationship with horses, I am pretty sure that I am not viewed as another horse - and certainly not as a rival or challenge, even though I am assuredly in control.

Yes, that would be my experience too. Horses are perfectly capable of not only recognising that humans are not horses, but of using a different set of rules, if you will, for interacting with us than they do with other horses.

In fact, I don't *want* my horse, or any horse, seeing me (or other humans) as other horses. I don't want a horse I've trained to start regularly testing whether maybe it outranks humans (or a particular human) just because it might be inclined to do so with horses. Not everyone will exude the same amount of automatic " of course I'm in charge" - so I want the horses to treat all humans as "in charge" by default. (That said, there's no escaping that if a human is too obviously *not* the decision maker too many times even the horse who has this idea that humans are normally automatically in charge well ingrained might well start being the decision maker. This happens sooner rather than later if it's the sort of horse to be naturally inclined to want to be in charge! )

(In danger of rambling - will stop typing now)

[Laura2184]

Hi guys,

Sorry not very well educated on this kind of stuff so can somebody help me? I tried Join up with my 14' pony at the weekend, my friend at the yard has done it with him and it worked really well. I tried it and he was extremely aggressive towards me. constantly getting in my personal space and sort of managed to turn the tables round by charging at me.. :mad: My pony quite obviously thinks he is the boss.. Is there any other way of showing him that I am the dominant one without putting my life in danger :eek:

Any help with this would be really good. :)

Thanks for all your replies everyone. Seemed to go off on a bit of a tangent but think I got the jist of it!

[Yann]

LOL! discussions always go off at a tangent on here :D

Just to add to the herd / heirarchy thing my own observations would suggest that whilst it seems important for a horse to know who's who and what's what with other horses, once they know that they settle down and appear to stop worrying about it. I think a lot of observed conflict in domestic herds is more a result of lack of space than a natural drive to be top dog.