inside leg to outside hand - what does it all mean???

[hannah:)]

Question is in the title really - my new RI told me to do this last night and I was so busy concentrating on other things that I only realised later that I don't really know what it means!:o What I took it to mean was to put slightly more pressure on with the inside leg to stop the horse from falling in and to use the outside rein to balance it.... but that's a bit of a wishy washy idea really isn't it...:rolleyes: Need help from the knowledgable ones!

[hannah:)]

surely somebody can tell me... anybody there?:)

[Vicki&Milo]

In what kinda context was it, what were you doing?

[cvb]

if you just used inside leg, the horse should step sideways.... :p

so the inside leg says "stay out" and the outside hand says "this far only". The outside hand is a "supporting" rein.

is that what you are asking ?

[KateWooten]

Hannah - ask again in the dressage thread .. it's more a dressage 'way of thinking'. Personally, I think I don't agree with the whole methodology, but I don't yet know enough about dressage to say that for sure.

[cvb]

Kate

not sure its dressage specifically - but if you are riding out and about you don't really HAVE an inside and outside hand/leg ;)

[KateWooten]

Ah ! That's a good point :) (I'm a bit dense sometimes !!) I was just thinking some of the more dressage-oriented riders would be better at explaining this - I know I've heard the expression used in dressage lessons a lot, and it comes up in every dressage book I've read (and I know I've never really understood it either (see above - I'm still a bit dense !!)

[cvb]

tadah :D
http://www.classicaldressage.co.uk/Q___A/Q6/q6.html

[hannah:)]

In what kinda context was it, what were you doing?

Ok well maybe I wasn't all that clear:p !! I was having a lesson, just riding around on the track in trot. The horse kept dropping out of the canter and I was trying to rebalance, cos otherwise we were just rushing around and not really getting very far! Hence why I didn't ask - was too busy concentrating on breathing and all....!;)

cvb - inside leg - stay out. outside hand - not too far. Yep, that's kind of what I thought, so glad I wasn't too far off!

Kate - why don't you agree with it? I'm curious!

Thanks for replies guys!:)

[Vicki&Milo]

That kinda makes some more sense to me.
If the horse was dropping out of canter the inside leg is to create the impulsion on the girth (hence outside leg bacK) and the outside rein is to hold him togther and collect him, its fundamentally in that sense to get him to canter rather than just running on-at least that how i've always seen it-hope i'm not telling prokies, please let me know if i am-i obviously need it!!! :D
Vicki

[hannah:)]

Yep, put like that it does make sense! I think you're right, I just hadn't heard it called inside leg to outside hand before and I was a bit confused... Well now I get what he meant, I'll just have to try and put it into practise next lesson:cool:

[KateWooten]

Kate - why don't you agree with it? I'm curious!

I think I'm growing out of the whole language and methodology of dressage and traditional english riding. The more I do and see, the more involved I am with the horse from the earliest stages, the less confident I am in any rider's ability to 'support' a horse by holding their calf against the horse's side, or by putting any amount of pressure on a rein.

My horses seem pretty much able to 'balance' themselves on their own out in the field ! So all I'm doing when I put a rider on them, is giving them enough time, and some good exercises, to help them build up the muscles to balance themselves with a rider. All I do now as regards riding them 'correctly' is balance myself on them in such a way as to be the least hinderance to their movement, and then 'ask' them - to turn, to bend, to change gait, to move with more energy etc etc. As soon as they comply with that request, then I drop the subject. I can no longer see any merit in holding either a rein contact, or a leg aid.

To me, the 'pressure-release' system is just easier. I ask for more bend I ask the horse to be 'straight' ... sooner or later he does a good job of this, and is rewarded - yes, that's what I want. After several cycles of this, he should know what it means when I ask him for more bend, or to be 'straight'... thereafter, I don't expect to have to nag, support or use an aid more than once ... once he knows what he's bieng asked for, he does it and we drop the subject, or else he needs more time training.

I'm rambling on a bit I guess because I'm trying to think it through at the moment - Please feel free to point out holes in my thinking - I'm just still mulling it over.

Kate

[Scarlett 001]

My instructor uses this expression sometimes when I am trotting my circles. Sometimes I am going around the circle and the horse is kind of poking his nose out, not bending through the body. Then when I think inside leg to outside hand (I don't do a death grip on the rein or big push with the leg - rather almost just a mindset with a bit more emphasis on those the leg and rein so I am aware of them), Skeeter seems to really relax his head, accept contact and bend better. Not sure I physically change that much that is going on - it is very subtle, but Skeeter responds beautifully when I think about focussing on the inside leg and outside rein a bit more.

Not sure if this makes any sense. Mainly, it is very subtle, but Skeeter seems to feel the difference and respond. My instructor is a dressage coach by the way.

[cvb]

All I do now as regards riding them 'correctly' is balance myself on them in such a way as to be the least hinderance to their movement, and then 'ask' them - to turn, to bend, to change gait, to move with more energy etc etc. As soon as they comply with that request, then I drop the subject. I can no longer see any merit in holding either a rein contact, or a leg aid.

To me, the 'pressure-release' system is just easier. I ask for more bend I ask the horse to be 'straight' ... sooner or later he does a good job of this, and is rewarded - yes, that's what I want. After several cycles of this, he should know what it means when I ask him for more bend, or to be 'straight'... thereafter, I don't expect to have to nag, support or use an aid more than once ... once he knows what he's bieng asked for, he does it and we drop the subject, or else he needs more time training.

I'm rambling on a bit I guess because I'm trying to think it through at the moment - Please feel free to point out holes in my thinking - I'm just still mulling it over.

Kate

Kate, you sound like me - only I'm a bit further on in my mulling...

what when you are not asking for a change, where the ask is clear and the response is clear but also transitory ?

For example,

1) I ask for canter - the horse gives me canter - so now I am not asking the horse to change to canter as he's "completed" the task.

This is the type of exercise where I ask, and then expect the horse to maintain status until I ask again.

2) I ask for leg yield - the horse steps to the side - a correct response ! But if I don't reapply the aid I would then expect the horse to go straight again, whereas if I want to leg yield further, I need to ask again/still.

In this case, I maintain the "ask" as a way of saying "keep doing it".

So how does the horse know when a maintained aid means "you got it wrong, try again" and when it means "thats right, keep doing it " ??

Its in how I ask, and what form of release I use. But sometimes you need to be able to say "thats right" without releasing...

the "full" release comes when the task is complete. (tho it does depend on what you mean by "release" and above makes some assumptions about that).

(there is often a minor release within the work - e.g. say I am asking the horse to bend head and neck one way. if they flex, the pressure will become "neutral", but I don't stop asking until I want the flex to stop. So the cue is still there, but the horse finds a position that minimises it, makes it neutral).

Hope this makes sense - it may not be 100% clear as it is something I am working on myself ;)

[eml]

Sorry I don't think either point is contradictory, I am a great fan of creating 'lateral bend' as a means to suppling and getting horse working through from hind legs but I also believe in the concept of reward by release, I hold with my hand or tighten pressure with my leg and as soon as horse responds I release hold/pressure, and yes I also aim for least hinderence and lightness of aids.

I think what Hannahs instructor may have been trying to get her to do was to stop horse going stiff in neck and running on by asking for some flexion and giving half halts at the same time to rebalance?? Sorry sounds like gobbledygook written down I usually find it easier to explain!!!!

[Vicki&Milo]

yeah, i think eml's about right, that what hannah is saying and what kate is saying actually agree quite a lot, because in hannah's case she was still asking and he wasn't giving, so she needed to keep asking, you woulnd't necessarily maintain this once he'd cantered, nuless you were then asking for a turn etc.
Vicki

[KateWooten]

Hannah - I hope I didn't send the discussion too far off topic - I'll have to start a new thread to pick all your brains some more ... very interesting (to me !). Hope some of it helped you Hannah, with the original question

Kate (... slinks off to think some more ...)