Training horses under three

[Gay]

I am not wishing to cause an arguement as I know this is a rather heated subject, and I understand about growth plates not fusing until around 7 in some horses. I own a yearling and was speaking to my uncle about his possibly helping my with his training/backing when he is older. My uncle (in his 70's) suggested dependant on my geldings maturity to back him at two and maybe ride him out a couple of times then turn him away until three. My thoughts are similar only starting at three then turning him away. My uncle used to break mainly draught horses which are supposed to mature later - does this mean a lot would have had problems later in life or is it different (not as much strain) when they are used for driving?

[Wally]

It's not just his bones it's his head you'll be messing with too at two.

Kindergarten is for babies University is for the older guys, you can''t put a toddler into Uni and get it to work.

Draught horses don't have the same pressures and stresses on them as riding horses. having said that the youngest I have had them pulling is 3, and that is the exception and only once in a while for 30 minutes start to finish of a session.

It really is worth waiting and getting the foundations right. Sable's Sæla was ridden at 5, but was not ready, she was an airhead, we turned her away for another year and we came on in leaps and bounds.

[Gay]

Obviously he is not coming from a draft horse perspective then but maybe old school - did it used to be common place to back two year olds? He would also feed them up on corn prior to training is this still comon practice with horsemen/women breaking the traditional way?

[teach1]

we have a lot of horses in to the yard to start their ridden career, usually three and four year olds, I think, obvioulsy depending on their personality that three year olds benefit from being started at three then turned away. however at the moment we have a two year old colt, who was sent to us for breaking in and he is doing the same work as the other babies and getting on really well. i think if he'd had been left any longer, it would have been difficult to get where we are now with him as he is a big lad! he of course will be turned away for the summer.

we also have a lot of irish horses come to us to be sold, if they come at seven, they are considered old, abd as five year olds, they are a lot more advanced and chilled out about the world then the five year olds weve started, so Im not sure at what age they start them there.

it is an interesting topic, don't get me started on racing! they start them at two and race them don't they?

[KateWooten]

over here, everybody starts them at 2. It is so depressing. They do this, because the breed societies, years ago, started competitions for youngsters - 'futurities', originally of course thye would showcase the potential stars of the future. Pretty much inevitably, of course, if a breeder can get a youngster to win a good reputation at just turned 3, the turnaround for his investment is a lot shorter. Now all the money is in the 3 yr old futurities, so they're backed at barely 2. It's not uncommon to back long yearlings.

It's not uncommon to hear a conversation like 'oh, this is a great mare she could have won millions if she hadn't injured herself after 3 months of campaigning' ... and yet they don't even see anything wrong in that picture :(

If it were me, I'd just wait a while, Gay - there are lots of reasons people used to start them early - if you are depending on selling horses to put bread on the table, it's a whole dfferent matter, but today really our horses are luxuries and they don't need to be forced along fast at all.

[Afellpony]

Between now and the age of 3 there is so many more useful things you can be teaching your horse - ie - leading in hand, getting him used to the school by just leading him round, letting him look at objects etc etc. There is so much you can teach a youngster from the ground without causing the stress (and sometimes resentment) that early backing would generate. Enjoy his company and teach him about horsy life but dont back him until he's at least 3 preferably a few months older.

[Gay]

:eek: I wasn't thinking of backing him until at least three. I was just trying to understand where my uncle was coming from on the way he has always done things. Also how to put my opinion accross without sounding like I know it all when he has dealt with horses for a lot longer than me. :o

[teach1]

I think three is a good age to start with a little lunging, long reining, loose schooling, and desensitising to scary things!

[Abi B]

My 17.2hh thoroghbred was backed at 2. He's now 3, will be 4 in August. He's very laid back and level headed. We have just begun jumping small fences. He is very well balanced and mature. I don't think he would be the way he is if we had left him till 3 to back him as he is so tall and gangly. However, he does not do anything to strenuous, no more than half hour at a time, no breaking a sweat, ridden no more than 3 times a week.

[Bay Mare]

2 is far too young for backing. It is also far too young for lunging as lunging is quite stressful on the joints. Thankfully people are getting educated and realise that the old ways aren't necessarily the best.

The story that different breeds mature at different rates is untrue. They all develop, physically, at about the same rate. Some look more mature at an earlier age but physically aren't.

You will see competition horses started early after all time is money but then they don't tend to have a long working lifespan and can end up getting all kinds of injuries as they get older. The same of course can be said of a lot of western horses (though not all of course) and racehorses.

Personally I don't care what they're doing or which competition they're doing. I'd rather wait till about 4 year old which is probably still too early if we were to be strict about it but is certainly a lot more acceptable than starting at 2.

The problem with starting horses young is that it's a lottery, you have no way of knowing which horses will be damaged, some may get away with it, a lot won't. You won't necessarily see the physical (not even touching on the mental) problems straight away, you may not see the problems for a decade or more. Personally I would prefer my horse to have the best chance in life of making it through their teens without breaking down. But then I'm not in horses for the competitions or for the money.

[Abi B]

If we were strict we wouldn't ride them, shoe them, stable them, box them, tack them up, bit them, clip them or feed them polos for fear of rotting their teeth.

[shaiarabians]

You tell him that you value his imput and his experience but you with YOUR horse are going to do it differently and see how you go.

good luck
Liesl

[Gay]

Thanks for all your replies. Just another thought do you think that people are generally more accepting of older horses now. My thought being if we start them later then they should be able to have a longer working life and therefore shouldn't be written off as past it in their teens. In my personal opinion though it still seems people are more interested in buying horses under 10 or 12. Any thoughts?

[Wally]

There is a predjudice against older nags, but there ought not to be. I'd rather hava ridden horse in his 30's than have him PTS in his late teens.

[fitz]

The story that different breeds mature at different rates is untrue. They all develop, physically, at about the same rate. Some look more mature at an earlier age but physically aren't.


I have to take issue with this. Its like saying all humans mature at the same rate, but we blatantly dont (puberty anyone?). I would say that its an individual thing rather than a breed thing for the most part though.

I wouldnt back him at two, or lunge either. But theres lots of other things you could introduce such as bitting, leading, loading. Generally getting him used to being handled. A bit of natural horsemanship a la Kelly Marks i.e. responding to pressure, and moving his feet as you want would be a great start to training in my opinion.

[shaiarabians]

Hi Fits have a read of this link mate

http://www.equinestudies.org/knowledge_base/ranger.html

cheers
Liesl

[CMR]

Fits, of course not all humans mature at the exact same rate, but we all do finish maturing within a few years of each other. We're not talking about the appearance of a hips or facial hair or anything, we're talking about skeletons. I'm not sure by what age humans are supposed to be skeletally mature, but I think it is somewhere around 18 years. Saying a two year old quarter horse is skeletally mature is like saying a fourteen year old human is, which neither are. Yes, both may look as they are mature, but neither are. Puberty just affects the outside appearance, not the skeleton. All humans are skeletally mature around the same time. Which is exactly what Bay Mare was saying about horses, some of us LOOK physcially mature at fifteen, but we aren't. Then some of us don't "develop" until we're almost physically mature(those would be the draft breed people! :D)

[Mehitabel]

as cvreagzayn and bay mare have said, there isn't that much variation within people apart from the people way out at either end of the scale.

i've been the same height (5'2) since i was 11 (i was quite a tall child!) - but at 17/18 i changed shape considerably - shoulders and hips widened, etc.

i have occasionally sat on 2 year old horses - and by sat on, i mean leaned over while grooming, slipped a leg over, said 'hello pony, guess where i am' and slipped off again. i think that kind of thing, done once or twice as purely an acclimatising thing and not in any way part of a formalised training, is fine. we don't start the actual backing and lungeing until 3 at the least, and that depends on the pony.

i am also very anti backing at 2 because of a horse's size. i don't believe a horse should be given any reason to use its strength against you, so size should be no issue. one of the easiest ones i ever had to back was a 17hh cleveland bay who was built like a brick wall. physically she was immensely strong, but backing was not traumatic and she never had a reason to fight or use that strength against me - still 5'2 as i was at 11!

[fitz]

Shaiarabians (sp?) I promise I will have a look at that link tomorrow, I'm on dial up here and it is painfully slow. Its not Deb Bennetts site is it?

cvr (you all have such difficult usernames) - We all do finish within a few years of each other, thats my exact point, so do horses. My uneducated opinion is that there can be a two to three year span. We all know the person who reached almost full height by 14, and we also all know the person who shot up at age 16. It does vary quite a bit. I dont think any horse is physically mature at two, but I am sure that some horses are closer to full maturity at two than others.

I'll do some research tomorrow on a broadband connection, I have a university's resources at my disposal. I will keep an open mind on this topic until I've had an opportunity to delve into it further.

[shaiarabians]

Hi fits
TIMING AND RATE OF SKELETAL MATURATION IN HORSES, Dr Debbie Bennet
its not her site but is written by her about skeletal growth its afab read It has changed my mind on a few things but I have always done my horses super super slow anyway but my stallion if I had the chance over again I would not have covered mares till 6 yrs instead of 3yrs.

My babies get halter broken and brushed and shown in hand. then at 2-3 yrs I teach them how to lunge doing no more than 15 mins work outs and teach them to have gear on. At 3yrs I sit on and do 5 rides then tip them out then they dont get any sort of solid work till 4-5yrs. So Im a real slow poke but I have never ever had lameness of any kind in any of my babies. My first I started 15 yrs ago.

good luck
Liesl

[Wally]

Shaiarabians, I don't think you are a slow poke, it's the way we do things, If we have a lame horse, which is, maybe, once a year (touch wood) it clears up in now more than a week, never (touch wood) a vet job, they usually do it playing rough.

Never had back issues either. and we have small horses and big riders.

[fitz]

Shaiarabians; Just read your post now. I have trouble accepting Deb Bennett's work. I know she is a highly respected journalist for Equus magazine, but she has no claim to being an expert scientist on this matter in my opinion.

I went into my reasons for saying this before, but basically, she trained as a palaentologist, her PhD is about rocks and fossils, and she has one paper published about horses which is a highly dubious method of evaluating evolution, i.e. nothing to do with the modern horses skeletal development.

There may be many reasons why she has nothing published in a peer reviewed journal, maybe she cant get funding, perhaps her peers dont like her work, or maybe she doesnt want to dissect carcasses, I dont know! But until she has some body of work which I find credible, I'm not going to accept her writing as gospel. I would rather listen to someone who trained as a zoologist or veterinary scientist with a more solid body of research behind them.

If you could point me in the right direction...

[shaiarabians]

I get what your saying fits and the same can be said about a great many people in this world of information as well. One of those is Pat Colbey author of Natural Horse Care its the same with her she is self taught but has got 50 years of experience and problem solving behind her hense after reading her book I was able to problem solve a founder pony within 5 days. but she isnt peer verified either but I did check her methods of feeding with a few scientists first and was proven safe even tho she has no qualifications but a vast experience.

All we can do is find all we can and make a decision on what is in front of us and what experience we have had. If I come across anything else I will put it up lol

all the best
Liesl

[fitz]

I get what you are saying too, but in my opinion, this is an area where experience alone is not sufficient, I accept the teachings of a great many equestrian experts on the evidence of their experience.
But in this case, which is a medical issue, a body of experimental research would be very beneficial to her message, and I see no reason why she hasnt done it. I'm not sure if she has ever examined a modern horses skeleton in detail to back up her claims, which is the least an 'expert' on skeleton maturation should be doing.

[shaiarabians]

Hey Fits Im up for a discussion but dont want to jam up the board if you want to email back and forth lol shaiarabs@hotmail.com

lol its been playing on my mind and I have done some more research hehe
cya
Liesl

[KateWooten]

No, No ! Fits, and shaiarabians ... keep having the discussion online if you can, please !... it's of great interest to me, I need to read what you have to say ...I have a lot of catching up of the research to do, but I promise not to interfere too much with the discussion :) ... maybe a new topic in the Natural Horsemanship or Health area ?

Kate

[shaiarabians]

LOL ok hehehe you win

I agree with Fits to a point on Dr Bennet but in the same instance she has studied Biology and Bio-mechanics. Also searching paleontology as a form of research it lends itself to not just foccil bones but others as well, or they wouldnt be able to tell the difference of new or old bones would they?

I went in search of growth patterns etc and couldnt find anything at all but Dr Bennet so If anyone has any other links stickem here lol im on a roll hahaha Ok I digress. The only bone and structure info I could find on impact of work load or certain work was done by none other than BIO-MECHANICS prof. And Dr Deb has done this as well as the paleontology. So while it might not be gospel and fully verified I think it holds enough weight to at least be a good read and you can do what you will with the information.

all the best
Liesl
gee my eyes are sore lol research on this and impaction colic lol im suffering overload haha

[shaiarabians]

ok Ive had a sleep now lol its 8 am here

Ive got some links that people might like to read I havent had a thorough read but a gloss over so see how we go lol

http://www.vetpro.co.nz:888/Vet%20Talk_Equine/improving_bone_density.htm

http://www.equiworksa.co.za/instruct/clayton.htm
this link above is a lady that someone said had documented that the horses spine was not sufficiently ready till 5 yrs but I cant find the information yet and am still looking.

http://cvm.msu.edu/Dressage/articles/mcpres/usdfbiom.htm
this one is some bio-mechanics very interesting stuff

ok will cya all later im taking the munchkin to school then Im off doing errands and coffee visit to a freind hehehe
(((waves)))
Liesl

[fitz]

I havent managed to get into my office all week, so havent really looked at this further. I was thinking about it though, surely this is fairly basic equine science. All this kind of research should have been conducted years ago!

I agree about Dr. Bennett, a palaentologist with an interest in horses would surely have a better understanding of a horses skeleton than a layman. I really have no problem with her scientific background at all. What I do have a problem with is that she doesnt seem to have conducted any solid research in the area. I mean, if what she says is true, it needs to be published in places where the leading academics and experts will see it and take it on board, and it could be used as a policy tool to restrict or preferably stop practices such as racing two year olds etc. I mean people like you or I really have no influence and its useless telling us.

It really would help her case if she conducted some experiments. I see no reason why it shouldnt be totally quantifiable, i.e. there must be some measure of maturity and weight bearing and working capacity defined, and then skeletons of horses of different ages and breeds investigated for these criteria.

I really hope that our vets have studied this stuff and have a knowledge of skeletal maturation, so I cant help feeling that this work was conducted long ago.

I am going into the office now (promise).

Welcome to the discussion Kate

[cvb]

My thought being if we start them later then they should be able to have a longer working life and therefore shouldn't be written off as past it in their teens. In my personal opinion though it still seems people are more interested in buying horses under 10 or 12. Any thoughts?

sure, but when people advertise a horse they don't say "13, started late at 6" they just say their age... so the buyer can not determine a horse that has had a late start from one that had an early start :(

I have a 34yr old who was ridden til his late twenties. We have a Fell that we owned from 4 who is know 18 and starting to show his age - much more so than the other chap did at the same age...

[KateWooten]

I know far from enough to contibute to the discussion as far as actual medical research into the effects on the skeleton ... but there also seems to be a huge gap in statistical data research too. We all feel that a horse started too early breaks down early, and, like you say a horse started at 6 is not old at 13 ... but it's mostly feel and anecdote. Trouble is even collecting statistical data costs money ... and has to be huge ro have any value ... and who's going to pay for that, because anyone with interest and money has an interest in not interfering with starting horses young.

My own anecdotal impression is from having moved from UK to backwards TN - center of the TWH business, but also big into reining and cutting QHs. Every horse here is started at 2. Nobody bats an eyelid if they're retired at 5 for broodmares. My friend's filly needs glucosamine for stiff joints in her back legs at 5 - nobody has a problem with any of it :( But of course, it's all anecdotal, and anyone can argue against any of it being related to starting them at 2.

[horse_lady43]

hi i bred my horse who is 14 yrs old this august,i did a lot of ground work with him,i backed him at three,altho he let the kids sit on him,i found he wasnt mentaly ready so left him till he was 4,he never learned to canter till he was 5,i took him out with his mum ride and lead,so he got used to everything,he turned out a lovely well mannered obediant horse who my 6 yr old grandaughter can ride on her own,im glad i broke him later ,

[fitz]

and has to be huge ro have any value ... and who's going to pay for that, because anyone with interest and money has an interest in not interfering with starting horses young.


so true. I'd rather be doing research on that than on the waste-of-time crap I'm doing at the moment.:mad:

[cvb]

I emailed the Deb Bennett site to ask for the reference/bibliography for that article and comment :D

You know if we had the right structure/template provided for us, there is probably enough of us to do some basic form of data collection. But we'd need someone experienced in this to set the right format up.

[fitz]

I emailed the Deb Bennett site to ask for the reference/bibliography for that article and comment :D

You know if we had the right structure/template provided for us, there is probably enough of us to do some basic form of data collection. But we'd need someone experienced in this to set the right format up.

That would be a really great idea.. Maybe a new rider sponsored project is on the cards...

Everyone would have to be strictly unbiased though

[kunama]

Well, this is what i have done with my little man, and i do simmilar with any horse but in a flexiable manner depending on physical or mental maturity,

Tribble stands 12.2hh and is a moorland pony that i rescued as a three month old foal totaly wild from a barn on the moor . he was 10hh had never been touched and was very thin . He is still entier as he has done nothing wrong so far to warrent me cutting him either in his behaviour or shape.

3months old- halter broken , kept in to keep him warm for the first three days and to teach him to be touched and have feed and wormer, death of the six foot tape worm he had inside him!!!

6 months- walks in hand down farm track and up to the house to be petted and learn that strangers are nice too.

9 months- traffic proff till he could stand by the dual carriage way , walks through water, plastic bags , loading into the lorry for feeds.

yearling - first bridle and first show .

1.5yrs- walks in the new sand school out to the shop , pub, and beach occasional show regualr bridle and lots of handleing by children from 4 to 10yrs old.

2yrs- swimming at the beach , starting to show an interest in mares and rules learnt about behaviour around them! shown occasionaly , loaded in to trailer , and clippers put on him in the winter.

2.5yrs- lungeing, nice and gentle in short sessions with driveing harrness aplied bit by bit to keep it interesting for him , voice commands thoughly learnt.

3rys- saddle and light weight rider , 3 sessions in the school to establish walk trot canter turn , ( we learnt it to the voice at 2and a half so this is easy!) 4th session first hack , walk trot and canter on a verge emphisis on going fowards and fun

that is as far as we are this is how we continue...........

3.5yrs- short but sweet rides , boxed to the moors for hacks , little schooling but lots of out and about work , lightly shown in hand , small jumps

3yrs 9months - mini xc schooling, fun rides

4yrs light hunting and begining to show undersaddle, famialy pony, whp e.ct.

he has thoroughly enjoyed his education so far and i try to do it with feel , he has not been rushed and i belive it is all dependant on the horse as to how fast you go. But , i do think that yougsters are not handled enogh and it is the ground work that makes the horse, as well as keeping him in that positive foward outlook. It is about experiance , i know 7yr olds with shorter attention spans than tribble had at two because he is continualy mentaly stimulated without being pushed or hurried.

as for breaking at two , i belive suffolks are bred to mature at two and are put into light harness work then, i do however feel that on the whole two is a year too young.