haute ecole website [Archive] - New Rider Message Board

FRED

20th Feb 2006, 11:08 PM

I'm glad to be listening to some well good chill out music {Push-Strange World-ironic} while looking at the horse union photos, to be honest there partly the reason I tell people, I will never be 'horsey' .
Barbaric.

Anyway, from the ground a beautiful presence and understanding can be attained with our horses, with out high level skills, people go on about basics being 'basic' I think if owners can't be humble enough to do basic, then small wonder their horse doesn't understand them. I personally see great results from keeping everything quiet,peaceful and basic, it builds a fantastic confidence in your horse,in his owner, without all this 'dominance and overt pressure'.
I firmly believe 99% of horse problems are man made,nothing to do with flight animal or prey/predator animal,so because etc etc.

ok, the more advanced work doe's make you ask how do they get there, but I suspect its from getting all those humble basics right,trust,total trust.

Some of the photos with owners and horse peaceful at ease,are exactly how far Ive got in trust and confidence with Dakota, a horse who until recently, obliterated people.Its nice to be reminded I'm not alone, my horse can be allowed to rest his head on my shoulder when he seeks if its ok,a beautiful harmony and trust that can't be faked.
I haven't achieved this by any one particular method, but certainly influenced by Parelli and more so Bill Dorrance studies.

I think their verdict on Monty is very dated and unfair, there is in my eyes/mind a lot more to Monty Roberts and his passion for horses.
He openly admits some horses he's worked with have been given a death threat, from their owners!,I don't think he has the heart to walk away,from the horse that is.This speaks volumes while others may see this as double standards.{I don't do join up} but don't have a problem with 'join up'.

Re bits, I tell people about EE, Enlightened Equitation, kind hands and a whole lot more good.

My views on eventing / showjumping would not allow for me to be a member of http://www.hauteecole.ru/en/haute_ecole.php
Never mind.

Fred

LodgeRopes

20th Feb 2006, 11:30 PM

I agree that some of the pics in the "horrors" gallery could be anyone who has ever ridden with a bit , but I guess thats their point. They claim that just the process of having a bit in the horses mouth causes pain, whether its a snaffle or one of the other awful contraptions that are shown.

I cant say I disagree with their views on Equestrian sport - though I dont view sports in quite the same way as Nevzorov. But it does give one food for thought.

I agree Fred, ok, the more advanced work doe's make you ask how do they get there, but I suspect its from getting all those humble basics right,trust,total trust

I joined the forum and found so much to try to absorb and understand that I spent half the night ( literally!) re-assessing my interaction with horses and trying to figure out if what the Nevorovs are espousing is even attainable - but knowing that I would love to be able to interact with horses in that way!
(darn there goes the halter business....LOL)
Joining the forum also allows you free download of the DVD Horse Encyclopaedia which i am half way through and absolutely mesmerized by.
Nevzorov has a background in trick training which on some forums is looked down on, but I believe most horse training could be classified as tricks so it makes no difference what it is called as long as the way to get there is humane, enjoyable and causes little or no stress to the horse :)
After hearing Nevzorovs views I cant imagine that he would be anything other than totally humane in his approach.
Ok...that was my rave..lol...not a total convert or fanatic yet...but definately admire what he is doing and has done if all taken at face value.

BeachRiding

20th Feb 2006, 11:54 PM

Gosh look how starved this horse was: Poor thing!

http://www.hauteecole.ru/en/horses.php?sid=0&id=121

shaiarabians

21st Feb 2006, 12:52 AM

I have been to his site and have had discussions here in australia as well. There is some serioiusly poor translation on the site that has enflamed some people.

but I do believe he has achieved what he has with the kindest of methods as I have seen his Idol(and possible teacher) Mario Larashi in action. What I dont agree with is that all horses can go bitless I personally would love to see that happen but each one is an individual and I dont think its achieveble by all.

Have a great read as thats all we can do to learn and take what we can from what we read and utilise it to our fullest abilities.

Liesl

Bay Mare

21st Feb 2006, 06:36 AM

I agree that some of the pics in the "horrors" gallery could be anyone who has ever ridden with a bit , but I guess thats their point.

I wasn't talking about the obvious problems. I ride in a KK Ultra, cavesson noseband, no martingales, no draw reins, no winching the mouth shut or winching the head in. Some of those pictures could be me when Saff used to throw her head around. You can be heavy handed in a bitless. It's in the hands not what's in their mouth or on their face.

Someone on another forum called it propaganda and given his background (I wasn't talking about his horsey background, don't have a problem with 'tricks' myself as long as the horse is happy and relaxed doing it) I would say that they aren't that far out. There is a reference in one part of the site to an unattractive, overweight female (I think that was his wife saying that) ... add that to the photos and you see my point about only slim, beautiful people being allowed to ride.

MeMe

21st Feb 2006, 11:51 AM

Sorry but I see him as a scaremonger!

Although fair enough there are some good points, but especially those photo's, and to be honest its not the bits its the riders 99% of the time, as Im sure we would all admit.

nicolaj

21st Feb 2006, 12:37 PM

HAve 'flicked' through this site.

The photos I agree are quite horrible, but are a selection of what they want to show on the site. I'm sure there were probably pictures of the ones taken at the show of horses that were happily carrying out the task in hand.

I agree with Bay Mare why was the photo of the 'larger' lady included, is this cruel to the horse, or only skinny beautiful people allowed to ride?

Regarding bits/bitless, I think the old saying 'a bit is only as harsh as the hands that use it' springs to mind. I ride in a bit, a NS tranz lozenge snaffle, with a normal noseband, no martingale, flash etc and Fatty is coming along nicely. With patience he is now starting to take an 'outline' and work through his back, but is still only a baby at 51/2. Have seen however, the 'quick fix' lot who throw on draw reins etc to force a pretty outline and bits being missused.

I'm sure as responsible and loving horse owners we would all love to achieve the results he shows, their photos are quite stunning, but the majority of us have full-time jobs to support our hobby and have limited riding time and facilities.

As Fred suggests, you need to achieve some basics with your horse and build up trust. Once the trust is there, he/she will trust you to take them past the scary item, and you will then develop a partnerhsip.

I don't adhere to one NH method, but just like to treat my horse as an individual and get to know his little idiosyncrasis (SP?), but also see him as a horse, which he is and understand some horse psychology.

Maybe I'll return to this site and read in more depth when I have more time, but it doesn't really appeal to me to return, at a shallow level it seems to me anyway, that the way they work is best and everybody else isn't. In my opinion. sorry if anybody disagrees.

Jacquie

21st Feb 2006, 06:46 PM

I haven't read everything on the site in detail (I tend to glance through an article first and scrutinise it later). :)

What I have read so far is fascinating especially the 'Extract from the chapter Training' in the horse enyclopedia.

If the photo's where there to shock, then they certainly achieved that effect on me. They highlighted the damage that can be caused by a bit and also what suffering sometimes occurs to horses in the name of 'sport'.

I've applied to join the site forum because I admire Nevzorov views and his humane approach to horsemanship.

Colorado Sunset

21st Feb 2006, 07:21 PM

His philosophy sounds like something I would like, however I cannot bear to read what he has to say due to the total dismisal of every other technique other than his :mad:. His horses may be happy, he may train without force, however slagging everyone else off isnt going to make the world a better place for horses.

He doesnt seem to quite grasp the fact that not all of us have access to such teaching and that they still want the best for their horses, but dont know quite how to acheive it.

(Sorry for that unusually mean :( post)

I have had a look at his photos and will have a read through what he has to say, leaving out the bits i am not happy with, as I respect some of the points he is making.

Jo

Colorado Sunset

21st Feb 2006, 07:31 PM

hmmm, im slowly warming to this man... (whats wrong with me :eek: ;) )

I understand where he is coming from, I would love to achieve what he has from his horses... grrr internal conflict! (Jo, get a hold of yourself :rolleyes: )

Jo

FRED

21st Feb 2006, 09:00 PM

;) your not the only one.

Last year I saw something that nearly gave me to quit anything about Equestrian people, a horse at the sales, rubbed raw every where from the cage that was his driving harness, it was bad,the horse didn't know what foot to put his weight on,it was so terrible to see what he had been put through and now he was for sale..
I wanted to know where are the RSPCA, where are the Police, the horsey folk told me you have to put up with horses like this at sales,mind your own business:eek:, don't interfear!...grrrrr

LodgeRopes

21st Feb 2006, 11:19 PM

Jacquie - be prepared to spend absolute hours reading all the forum...lol
Havent had a chance to post anything on the forum as yet, but am fascinated with all that I have read so far. :)

Colorado sunset - I laughed out loud when I read your posts! Thats exactly what happened to me!!! At first glance I was a bit affronted with some of the comments ( perhaps defensive???) and I guess the arrogance of the man. The more i read the more I came to agree with his concepts and to admire not only what he has achieved with his own horses but also what could be achieved by anyone.

I think everyone can agree that some bits ( and some riders) do cause pain to horses....but is it really so hard to imagine or believe that all bits cause pain, no matter how soft the hands or how experienced the rider?
I remember when I was first learning to ride as a child and asking my instructor - Doesnt that hurt the horse? when seeing it bridled. After all a mouth is a fairly sensitive area and a big lump of steel holding the tongue down and wedged into the mouth must be uncomfortable to say the least :)

My own daughter has asked the same question of me, in fact I can recall being asked that by several children over the years. What seems obvious to children (and Nevzorov) may not be so obvious to those that have used a bit and who quite often are defensive about their use of it. Now Im not having a go at anyone who uses a bit...Ive used them as well.
But if the concepts and philosophies of Nevzorov can help us question our interaction with horses and see it in another light then I say more power to him.
I remember being quite sceptical about Parelli and his "natural" methods and thinking well thats ok for some, but what about the average rider ( me ) and being quite defensive about being regarded as Normal rather than natural ;)

Remembering my attitude then, has helped me be a bit more open and accepting of Nevzorovs extreme views :-)

Just go with the flow Colorado;) ...the internal conflict fades away after a bit more reading...lol...well it has for me:)

shaiarabians

21st Feb 2006, 11:24 PM

Something to remember when reading this site is that their culture and how this man was raised was very very russian and to me that is how he comes across as
arrogant russian but that dosent mean he hasnt got lots of good stuff for us to possibly learn.

Some of the translation has lots to be desired and yes the way it reads to me its not oh shes too fat to ride but to me that is translation as thats the way the sentence reads to me.

He isnt against all other trainers but does have specific ones in mind he loves nuno and mario larashi in particular and bestows praise on them:D

have a good day lol or is it night over there as i type this hehe
Liesl

LodgeRopes

21st Feb 2006, 11:48 PM

Hi Liesl...I agree that you have to look past the cultural differences and the sometimes lacking translations. After viewing some of the downloads on the site - his ( some might say) extreme views and slightly arrogant persona is completely disregarded when you see his genuine love and understanding of his horses...and their playfulness and absolute trust in him:)

I may be a bit of a soft touch ( oh and by the way this is Sharon not Rob posting in this thread..LOL) but it brings tears to my eyes when I see him with his horses. It truly is a beautiful sight.

How the heck you get a horse to collect at liberty is totally beyond my understanding but I do know I want that sort of connection with my horses!!!!!!! And I want it now...lol
Going to ransack the shed for a half deflated volley ball now!!!;)

BeachRiding

22nd Feb 2006, 12:18 AM

If he's saying only slim and beautiful people can ride, I don't even care how great his methods are, I will not go by them for that! That is just wrong, how could someone say that! I am not the slimest rider, and I ride better than most of the small people in my RI school! Okay Rant over....

LodgeRopes

22nd Feb 2006, 12:29 AM

I dont think thats what he is saying. I think the references have been taken out of context somewhat.... I cant actually find the comment but I would imagine if it was made, the reference is to inner ugliness rather than physical features. I find it hard to believe that anyone would be quite that shallow to be honest..lol Again, it may be that the translation has come across rather simplistically and what he is describing is the ugly and cruel side of equestrian sports rather than pretty riders are better than ugly ones:)

One of the people he most admires is Silke Valentin who is not only not slim but is in a wheelchair.

leoquine

22nd Feb 2006, 01:51 AM

Where does it say exactly that only slim and beautiful people can ride? I can't find it on the site:rolleyes: :o

shaiarabians

22nd Feb 2006, 03:57 AM

Hi sharon (((waves)))) lol

I have seen a tape of his idol Mario and ooh fantastic he can achieve that and more collection, all horses laying down, jumping througth glass window, jumping up on tables, falling and more. And it has all be done in a gentle manner. But mario does state that not all horses can achieve this that it is an idividual thing.

He had two horses for a movie one emilio the other zappata, zappata is the one the actor rode the quiet one lol but as he himself said you cannot go bridleless with zappata for you will see the forrest without the trees haha but emilio the stunt horse and fire and brimstone was soooo intelegent but bridleless and collected and up on the table and throught the window in full flight was magnificent.

I think Im going to go back to this site again. And if the weight thing is true I will tell you about it as Im no little pretty person lol haha

Liesl

Jacquie

22nd Feb 2006, 10:22 AM

Jacquie - be prepared to spend absolute hours reading all the forum...lol
Havent had a chance to post anything on the forum as yet, but am fascinated with all that I have read so far. :)

I'm sitting here with bags under my eyes and nudging myself to keep awake because I was on the forum till 2.00am this morning. I've now got invoices to raise and accounts to activate piling up on my desk because I keep loging in to 'First Level' thread - I'll openly admit to one and all - I'M HOOKED :D

Now I suppose I must force myself to get some work done. :(

LodgeRopes

22nd Feb 2006, 10:36 AM

LOL...I did warn you Jacquie :) The first day I found the site I was there till midnight and then spent another 2 hours trying to absorb all that I had read and work out how to get my horse to want to play with a ball, do a crunch and spanish walk....lol

Have you seen any of the DVD download yet? Parts of that are mesmerising!

Still trying to find a flaw or chink in the whole thing but havent found one as yet. Going to get Rob to make a decent sized neck strap for me though...lol

ambatt

22nd Feb 2006, 11:09 AM

I am sorry the first thing I thought was 'yet another band wagon'. I remain to be convinced by this man, he is saying nothing new and I don't like his shock tactics or body fascism - unless of course that has been mistranslated...

I prefer the true Classical Masters, Xenaphon and the Great Maestro Nuno Oliveira.

esse

22nd Feb 2006, 11:13 AM

Agree with Ambatt. Yet another "reformed" gangster - and an openly racist one, to boot ...

ambatt

22nd Feb 2006, 11:24 AM

I have now read through the majority of his website, I do not like him at all. He says that we should restrict racing showjumping and other equestrian activities for what? Teach our horses to perform unatural jumps, leaps etc for what purpose? Look at the photographs of his horses? Do they look calm, relaxed? happy? Look at his and their body language.

esse - Fascist indeed and I suspect a psychopathic one at that (and I mean in the true clincical sense) I hesitated to mention his politics and biography, but dear god!

The only bandwagon I jumped on was Mark Rashids - he talks common sense yet even him I find too esoteric now.

To my mind, everyone with an interest in classical riding/haute ecole/whatever should read Xenophon's The Art of Horsemanship.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0851310419/qid=1140610960/sr=8-4/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i4_xgl/203-2929048-4652752

nicolaj

22nd Feb 2006, 11:52 AM

The reference to the 'larger' rider is made via photographs in the 'house of horrors', see the link below:

http://www.hauteecole.ru/en/horse_trade_union.php?sid=57&id=187

If you look, nearly all of the pictures seem to show 'bad horsemanship', such as the use of harsh bits, pulling hard on the horses mouth thus causing pain and discomfort. Half way down however, you come across a photo of a young lady who appears to be on the 'larger' side and a few more appear which purely seem to focus upon her size, as far as I can see, she is not pulling at the horses mouth, the horse doesn't look upset, the only 'fault' appears to be her size.

I think that is what is upsetting people. I'm sure we've all seen slim riders who are like a sack of spuds and larger riders who can ride with lightness and suppleness.

I have read Nuno Oliveria Reflections on Equestrian Art, and marvel at the photos within the book. They show horses ridden in bridles and bits, the rider in spurs, performing and looking happy and light contact on the reins. Throughout the book emphasis is upon you as a rider being responsible for your own actions and how this affects the horse. He talks about having light hands and being tactful as a rider.

'The talented rider who is tactful will reward the slightest indication of obedience on the part of his horse, who will then respond calmly, confidently and pleasurably to any further demand. The true horseman should put into practice these words of Captian Beudant's: "Ask for much, be content with little, and reward often." ... A horse will never tire of a rider who possess both tact and sensitivity because he will never be pushed beyond his possibilities.'
Page 27: Reflections on Equestrian Art

To achieve such a level of equitation would be a dream, realistically, how many of us have the time to achieve this?

I agree there are practices carried out in the horse world, for the sake of competition or just for pleasure, which are not good and downright cruel, by so called horsepeople. To some horses are treated like a car, they get on and expect it to go and throw it away when they 'knacker' it up.

I had to wait till I was 32 to 'own' my own horse, and was worried by the lack of experience I had, but a couple of years down the line, I have realised that experience may be one thing, but knowledge and wisdom are a totally different concept.

I agree with some of the general concepts regarding horse welfare, but felt, in my humble opnion, that the site was condesending.

nicolaj

22nd Feb 2006, 11:58 AM

Sorry, just had another thought, I saw a Parelli demonstration last year at the CLA Game Fair, whereby a lady was riding a horse just using a piece of rope around his neck and bareback, similar to those photos on this site. She was cantering, reining back, leg yeilding and other lateral moves with this horse

Yet he states that the higher levels of Parelli should be ignored as these involve riding and causing pain to the horse?

Now I'm feeling confused.

ambatt

22nd Feb 2006, 12:02 PM

Oliveira spoke of training with kindness as do all the Great Masters, I will never ride like Oliveira but I aspire to his methods and understanding. I am only a recent-ish convert to the classical tradition.

Nevzorov is, in my opinion a charlatan and an unpleasant man and lots of other things I would not post on a public forum.

Did you see the photo of him with the Parelli's? They looked terrified!

Jacquie

22nd Feb 2006, 12:06 PM

LodgeRopes

22nd Feb 2006, 12:08 PM

I think the main objection to the higher levels of Parelli is the use of the bit, as well as the lack of collection to the horse. When the horse isnt in the correct frame it can cause muscular problems and discomfort.

Not sure why you claim he is a charlatan but each to their own :) You dont have to like the man to admire his methods or results with a horse...come to think of it you dont have to like his methods or results either..lol

I dont particularly like Pat but I think the seven games ( well most of em) are fantastic. And I dont think if i knew his political persuasion I would think less of his methods ;)

LodgeRopes

22nd Feb 2006, 12:16 PM

Hey jacquie....clean out your message box...LOL....been trying to send a message to you but it says you have too many!!!

ambatt

22nd Feb 2006, 12:20 PM

But I cannot find any information on his actual methods and training! I have read other discussion boards and I am not the only person who thinks his claims are at best ill-conceived.

Horses for courses, but I do not think I will be utilising his methods (if I could find them!) or embracing his philosophy.

I find his website deeply, deeply disturbing.

LodgeRopes

22nd Feb 2006, 12:24 PM

Not sure if you joined the forum but the training philosophies are in there :)

Nevzorov himself has nothing ( or little) to do with the site or the forum from my understanding - his wife is running it.

Jacquie

22nd Feb 2006, 12:27 PM

Hey jacquie....clean out your message box...LOL....been trying to send a message to you but it says you have too many!!!
They're all deleted now LodgeRopes....:o

LodgeRopes

22nd Feb 2006, 12:34 PM

Thanks Jacquie....I had to clean out mine too...lol...didnt realise it stores sent messages as well!:o

Jacquie

22nd Feb 2006, 12:35 PM

Agree with Ambatt. Yet another "reformed" gangster - and an openly racist one, to boot ...
Can you provide any links or quotes to back up these accusations?

nikkiandsharief

22nd Feb 2006, 12:37 PM

http://www.hauteecole.ru/images/photo/25.jpg
i trust my boy a 110% but not enough to do that!

ambatt

22nd Feb 2006, 12:52 PM

No - did not join forum - seems a little odd to me that the actual training methods are not made more public.

http://www.sptimes.ru/story/11763

I think this man will continue to have a high profile and incite much comment and divided opinions.

However, it is perhaps not appropriate for this to be discussed on an equestrian forum, these opinions are entirely my own.

If I was more aware of his training methods I could offer a more appropriate comment and de-construction of his theories. I am happy to be given a synopsis.

Jacquie

22nd Feb 2006, 01:18 PM

No - did not join forum....

If I was more aware of his training methods I could offer a more appropriate comment and de-construction of his theories. I am happy to be given a synopsis.
If you really want to be aware of his training methods and theories I suggest you join the forum, there's plenty of information on there. ;)

I agree, discussing a trainers political views on this forum is inappropriate - they're totally irrelevant.

Yann

22nd Feb 2006, 01:31 PM

nicolaj

22nd Feb 2006, 01:40 PM

May have misread the website, but to join the forum do you not have declare that you will no longer take part in any form of horse sport, and have to write to them confirming your horsey interests and then they decided whether to accept you or not?

Fair enough with regard to the bit with the higher levels of Parelli, but what the demonstration I refer to did show that using Parelli you could achieve such as relationship and trust with your horse as espoused by this chap. (I'm not a Parelli person), but again I'm sure the person at the demonstration has had to work long and hard to achieve this with the horse.

There are a lot of other individuals out there who have looked at training methods and general horse care and have questioned the methods used. Lucinda McAlpine is one that springs to mind, (only have a general understanding of what she has achieved), all her horses live out 24/7 unrugged in herds and all unshod. Having seen a brief demo at Your Horse, she talked about allowing the horse to 'talk' to you and work with them to grow and develop their training.

Is there some element of hypopracrsy (SP), in the fact that his wife continues her studies at Warwicskhire College of Equine Studies and has studied at the College of Equine Studies (Newmarket). (Not sure of the credentials of the later place). Surely these institutions will promote the use of bits etc in their equine studies, for the use of competion as well as general riding?

She graduated St.Petersburg Gerzin University (Art), graduated with honors from College of Equine Studies (Newmarket), and now continues studying Equine Science at Warwickshire College of Equine Study of Harper Adams University, in England. (taken from http://www.hauteecole.ru/en/lidia_nevzorova.php)

For me I want to be able to understand my horse and develop a strong bond with him, but never stand still with developing my knowledge and develop my riding to enable him to perform the best of his abilities.

Trewsers

22nd Feb 2006, 03:11 PM

Well, I guess I'm just not horsey enough - I thought the website was a load of pants and I thought Alexandra whatsisnamelooked a bit of a git.;)

HorseyBabe2

22nd Feb 2006, 03:22 PM

May have misread the website, but to join the forum do you not have declare that you will no longer take part in any form of horse sport, and have to write to them confirming your horsey interests and then they decided whether to accept you or not?.

Yep. I had a look at joining the forum (just so that I could have fair comment on what it's all about) and then noticed this disclaimer:rolleyes: . I wasn't prepared to join....

I guess Lodgeropes and Jackie will never be taking any interest in any form of horse sport again....................?!

and has studied at the College of Equine Studies (Newmarket). (Not sure of the credentials of the later place).

Have never heard of the place. Used to live in Newmarket (Suffolk) until 12 months ago:p . But maybe it's a different Newmarket or I've simply never heard of it.........

ambatt

22nd Feb 2006, 03:35 PM

Well, I guess I'm just not horsey enough - I thought the website was a load of pants and I thought Alexandra whatsisnamelooked a bit of a git.;)

Oh spot one Trewsers!

I will not join the forum as it promotes the views of a neo-facist -oops said it! I would not register my name and details - call me paranoid, but I am fairly selective in where I place my affiliations.

Looking at the photos on the website - his methods look like domination and subjugation to me. I prefer to think of my relationship with my horses as one of mutual respect and trust.

I also dislike the way he utilises the term 'haute ecole' to me this is a discipline employed by the Spanish Riding School, the Cadre Noir, the Alta Scuela etc etc not the travesty he portrays.

Jacquie

22nd Feb 2006, 03:37 PM

I can't agree - I think a person's integrity and personality can't but have a bearing on how they train horses or how they relate to people. A quick websearch reveals Nevzorov to be a violent right wing racist amongst other things. I won't give such people the time of day, however good or not they may be with horses.
Who you decide to give the time of day to is entirely up to you, but I still maintain that a persons political point of view has nothing to do with how he/she trains horses and bears no relevance on an equestrian forum.

The trainer could be a member of the raving looney party for all I care - as long as he/she didn't use aggression or mechanical tools on their horses - all I'm concerned about is what's involved in their method of training not their personal life. ;)

Yann

22nd Feb 2006, 03:41 PM

Politics may be one thing, but this is someone who was regularly involved in military actions including the sacking of Grozhny in Chechnia. I'm sure he loves his horses and is kind to old ladies though.

cvb

22nd Feb 2006, 03:43 PM

Jacquie

I still maintain that a persons political point of view has nothing to do with how he/she trains horses and bears no relevance on an equestrian forum.

really ? If I said it the other way up, that a person's values determine their political point of view, and those same values will affect how they relate - to other people, animals etc

Mark Rashid comments that we should live our lives the way we want to ride (be with our horses)...

esse

22nd Feb 2006, 03:46 PM

Can you provide any links or quotes to back up these accusations?

Surely, Jacquie, you must know how to use Google? It really is VERY simple, dear ...

By the way, I am not accusing him of anything - the courts did that already in '97 when he was accused and found guilty of the crime of Incitement of Ethnic Hatred. That is a matter of public record.

I agree that this forum is not the place to discuss political or religious matters, however, I also agree with Ambatt I hesitated to mention his politics and biography, but dear god! and Yann I think a person's integrity and personality can't but have a bearing on how they train horses

From what I have read of his - erm - beliefs - he, like Adolf, would not consider a person like me to be worth spitting on.

Jacquie

22nd Feb 2006, 03:52 PM

I guess Lodgeropes and Jackie will never be taking any interest in any form of horse sport again....................?!
Jacquie not Jackie ;)

It's all according what 'sports' your refering to......if it's horse racing then NO I've never had an interest in it and never will. The only 'sport' I enjoy is dressage and even then some of these top class riders put their horses through the mill before a contest. :mad:

I only ride in a natural hackamore and follow the PNH method of training so I find Nevzorov's methods of teaching fits in well with what I already practice.

However, if your into mechanical aids, anti Parelli or a big Monty Roberts fan then this site probably wouldn't interest you. ;)

FRED

22nd Feb 2006, 03:55 PM

There's no way I can join now folk have listed his background:mad:

I doubt very much he trains horses by domination,cant see it.

Im hopless at google search, maybe theres some one else out.......

Yann

22nd Feb 2006, 03:57 PM

Maybe it's the horse racing aspect but I just can't see how he can be so squeamish about Monty Roberts and yet embrace Parelli (apart from the bitting...). Then again...:D;)

Genghis Khan was good with horses too :D

HorseyBabe2

22nd Feb 2006, 04:06 PM

Jacquie not Jackie ;)

It's all according what 'sports' your refering to......if it's horse racing then NO I've never had an interest in it and never will. The only 'sport' I enjoy is dressage and even then some of these top class riders put their horses through the mill before a contest. :mad:

I only ride in a natural hackamore and follow the PNH method of training so I find Nevzorov's methods of teaching fits in well with what I already practice.

However, if your into mechanical aids, anti Parelli or a big Monty Roberts fan then this site probably wouldn't interest you. ;)

Sorry Jacquie for spelling the name wrong. I wasn't trying to define "horse sport", or agree or disagree with any methods. Just saying that I went to join the forum (to try and learn more so that I could make fair comment) and this is what it says
"You are welcome to the forum if you are not engaged in equine sport, racing, and other humiliating activities.
Our forum is not only for discussions. It is virtual School. It is designed for those, who want to follow our principles.
..... You must not support racing, jumping, eventing, etc.......
you have to perform the following two steps:

1. Register in the forum.

2. Send a letter to info@hauteecole.ru containing a) short information about you and your attitude to horses and b) your login name under which you have registered in our forum.

I just wasn't prepared to state that I am against horse sports. I assumed that as you and others had joined the forum that you are. But surely dressage is a sport?!! I think it is ridiculous to have to make a disclaimer that you are against all horse sports if what he is trying to promote is bitless riding, lack of cruelty etc. All seems a bit extreme and over the top to me. Why are the two mutually exclusive?

ambatt

22nd Feb 2006, 04:08 PM

There is a link in one of my posts.

"Bortko treats the Afghans at least sympathetically, and the killing of civilians and bombing of villages are unreservedly condemned. Alexander Nevzorov’s Purgatory (1998), however, shows the Moslem enemy as evil and deranged, in specifically racist terms. In their cruelty and barbarism the Chechens and their foreign supporters are identified not only as the military foe, but also the enemy of Holy Russia and Christendom in general, committing gross atrocities on Russian soldiers with gleeful sadism."

from this journal:
http://www.pipss.org/document369.html

So a man who despises others on racial grounds is a fluffy chicken with horses? I would doubt it very much, but each to their own.

Jacquie

22nd Feb 2006, 04:08 PM

Surely, Jacquie, you must know how to use Google? It really is VERY simple, dear ...
Esse, I'm not the only one who's getting p...ed of with your constant patronising and offensive remarks.

I'm not interested in anyone's personal life and unlike you, certainly wouldn't slander a person on a public forum!!

Get on a Political board if you want to discuss politics - leave this board for it's intended use.

I'm surprised the moderators haven't stepped in regarding all these political and slanderous postings - threads are usually closed for much less than this!!!

Jacquie

22nd Feb 2006, 04:10 PM

.... I'm sure he loves his horses.....

That's all I'm bothered about.;)

Jacquie

22nd Feb 2006, 04:12 PM

Maybe it's the horse racing aspect but I just can't see how he can be so squeamish about Monty Roberts and yet embrace Parelli (apart from the bitting...). Then again...:D;)
Ermm, mechanical aids maybe - do you want me to go into detail Yann?

ambatt

22nd Feb 2006, 04:31 PM

[QUOTE=Jacquie]I'm not interested in anyone's personal life and unlike you, certainly wouldn't slander a person on a public forum!!

Get on a Political board if you want to discuss politics - leave this board for it's intended use.

QUOTE]

Jacquie, with all due respect, Mr Nevzorov and his views are common knowledge and in the public domain, he does belong to several right wing organisations. I think what I am trying to say is that a man so lacking in compassion and so full of hatred to humanity cannot possibly engender feelings of love and trust and compassion in his dealings with equines.

This is not slander, it is not malicious gossip it is freely available information that I am sure Mr Nevzorov would confirm for you. Please do not attack Esse for her posts - I gave the opposing view as I like to get my research and facts in perspective, so you can address similar comments to me - please, no victimisation or bullying, I don't like it.

I suppose Human Rights on an equine forum are severely misplaced.

On his biog on the Dumas website - it states he graduated from a Trick Riding School
"Nevzorov, Alexander Glebovich

Vsevolozhsky District #100, Leningrad Region

Affiliation: Independent

DOB: August 3, 1958

Alexander Nevzorov graduated from the horse stunt school. " How interesting, do you think it was a Natural Horsemanship one?

linkhttp://http://www.usrbc.org/Members-Only/Russian%20Government%20and%20Regions/duma/deputy.htm

ambatt

22nd Feb 2006, 04:43 PM

Have reported myself to the Mods!

ambatt

22nd Feb 2006, 04:51 PM

Would love to hear peoples thoughts or opinions on Nevzorov and the philosophy/techniques promoted on the site :)

Well, we have discussed the issues as we saw appropriate.:)

tazzle22

22nd Feb 2006, 04:54 PM

wow ....... what a hornets nest

I must admit that when I visited the site before and scanned through it I was intrigued ... I mean I cannot completely disagree with his ethics with regard to horses and we do have the bitless bridles he promotes on his website ;) ..............

..... however .........

I did find it puzzling that de decries "sport" whilst himself riding horses (which if you follow what appears to be his reasoning against sport the logic would seem to lead to is that any riding at all being unnatural ????)

I also too have great difficulty in reconciling myself in "joining" / associating with ( even if just on a forum) a man who incites ethnic cleansing against fellow humans who happen to be moslem or jewish ( for example).

It seems to me that we should respect equines AND humans ........ To me saying that you can separate a mans attitude to humans from his attitude to equines is like saying as long as he treats horses ok it matters not if he beats up dogs / cats ??????

:(

ambatt

22nd Feb 2006, 05:01 PM

Someone kindly quoted me an extract from his training methods forum - it made no sense to me, it was garbled, confused and very para-scientific. Even taking into account translation difficulties some of the ideas and beliefs were bizarre and irrational, and not based in scientific fact.

Their views on equine cognitive behaviour were very interesting and in contrast to the papers I have here at home.

esse

22nd Feb 2006, 05:14 PM

Jacquie, you do seem to be a little - erm - sensitive regarding the truth about some of Mr Nevzorov's publicly-stated philosophies and beliefs.

And about anything I say - even when the same thing is said by others.

I wonder why ... :p

ambatt

22nd Feb 2006, 05:58 PM

Enough already! Please no sniping as this thread will get locked. I have tried to bring it back on topic.

So no personal comments, provactive remarks, baiting or unpleasantness by anyone.

Any one have any comments on his training philosophy? If you hang on I will paste the extract I have. Then we can discuss just how dubious it all is.

Here we go - it is a bit long:

osted: Fri Dec 23, 2005 20:59
Training rules I "Getting Started" Reply with quote
Training rules I or “Getting Started”.

Would like to say couple of words about learning.

1. You will have to “dismount” your horse and work only on in hands until you will become completely sure that you have managed to completely learn everything from the work on the ground, in hands, that your horse trusts you completely, and you trust your horse completely too, and wont be afraid to ride her without a bride into fields.
Saying things like “how so, horse needs to moove, going into fields, forest etc” are simply cancelled, forbidden.

I’m confident that 99% of your horses are having problems with saddling and all sorts of pains.
Half a year or a year of groundwork by our programme will make your horse not only healthy, flexible and energetic and fun, but would heal all the wounds.

2. You will have to say big NO to your typical pleasures with horses. Serious work with horse means complete self-sacrifice. Sergey will explain in more detail.
No field rides!!! Field rides are fun for you, but NOT your horse. Your pleasure will be in creating relationship of happiness, trust and success between you and your horse.

3. You must understand the true nature of horses.
As a rule, everyone, including people involved in sport, simple horse lovers “communicate” only with the physiological part of horses. I.E. they are working on creating conditioned reflexes with help of a whip and a carrot.
We are communicating with the soul and the thinking part of horse.
All communication is based on understanding, NOT on conditioned reflexes.
They obviously exist and in humans too, but we try to minimise them to minimum, so that you understand me in a right manner.
Everything that horse does conches, before hand is “worked through” in their brain.
I would like to say here, that there are two things that have helped us to create our system. They are: the brilliance of A.G. and my knowledge of Hippology.
The thing is, that not every signal that goes through a body of a horse gets to the brain. For instance, signals from spur or a whip (stimulus), when we are creating conditioned reflexes only go as far as the spinal cord brain. There for there is no thinking, brain isn’t involved.
That is the way people work with horses in circus, sports, everywhere.
But we are trying to work in a way to activate the brain of our horses, so that they think through what they do, because it is very important.

4. Apart from brain, horse has a locomotion system (body).
If you have noticed, our horses are well muscled, very energetic.
Knowing the rules of physiology, I am planning the regimen of work correctly.
Just remember the following.
• Horse must not work hard for more than 15 minutes a day.
• If your horse doesn’t feel well or doesn’t want to work, don’t make your horse to work.
• You are not allowed to make your horse to do anything by forcing your horse.
• You are not allowed to make your horse do anything if your horse resists.
• You are not allowed to use artificial help aids that restrict your horse in any way.
• You are not allowed to collect your horse by forcing the collection. Only voluntary collection at liberty is permissible. Right now it is too early to talk about it but you wont get any results if your force your horse to collect. It will come, but on a later stage of learning.
• You are NOT ALLOWED TO PUNISH YOUR HORSE.
• NOT even ALLOWED to be ANGRY at your horse.
• You are not allowed to cause any pain to your horse.
• Not allowed to scream at your horse.
• You are not allowed to ask your horse something that is unreasonable. For example, to do a full lap, when you only learned to do 2 steps.
• Not allowed to lunge your horse more than 3 times a week, and not longer than 15 minutes each time.
• You are allowed to play, if you want, whole day long!
• Allowed to be friends, to communicate, to do something together.
• You must GROOM each other.
• You need to read out loud to your horse and sing songs.
• NOT ALOOWED to REPEAT any exercise more than 3 times a lesson.
• Not allowed to demonstrate impatience.

Remember: a horse is a very gentle and fragile creature.
Take a good care of your horse’s health.
Do not ask anything from your horse if your horse is kept in conditions that are like in campo de concentretion.
Because it’s hard to reach mutual understanding, when your horse is kept in such horrible conditions.
There won’t be any success if your horse is kept under stress.
In stress condition, the part of the brain that we call “the learning part” switches off and (read my articles which soon be translated into English).

Your study and work will be based on a special plan. Make sure that your horse is healthy, check teeth, hoof balance (wrote an article about it not long ago), check for worms, arrhythmia, irregular heartbeat and mood. Grease are for instance a serious barrier on the way to establishing a good relationship with your horse.

You will read about how much to work and aerobic in the next topic.

Good luck
Lidia N

Last edited by Lidia Nevzorova on Tue Jan 10, 2006 21:28; edited 2 times in total

ambatt

22nd Feb 2006, 06:00 PM

hacking is bad and evil???

"You will have to say big NO to your typical pleasures with horses. Serious work with horse means complete self-sacrifice. Sergey will explain in more detail.
No field rides!!! Field rides are fun for you, but NOT your horse. Your pleasure will be in creating relationship of happiness, trust and success between you and your horse."

My horses would beg to differ!

Jacquie

22nd Feb 2006, 06:25 PM

....And about anything I say - even when the same thing is said by others.

I wonder why ... :p

Maybe it's because I don't like your hollier than though attitude?

The way you portray yourself through posts leaves little to the imagination. Your arrogant, offensive, self opinionated and pathetic. You've offended many people on this board with your snide comments - with one member openly declaring she was no longer going to use the forum because of your postings

You know what Esse, I'm also out the back door after this post - well done that's another member unsubscribing thanks to you!!!!!! :mad:

esse

22nd Feb 2006, 06:31 PM

FRED

22nd Feb 2006, 07:15 PM

quote:
My horses would beg to differ!
:) and good for your horse too.

Now, my horse is not yet backed, had a reputation for obliterating people, and remarkable at the present time would agree with most of the list

To be honest I will always have an enquiring mind on whats out there.

I'm afraid carrots are a must,given at the right moment of course.

ajhainey

22nd Feb 2006, 07:38 PM

.... I'm sure he loves his horses.....
That's all I'm bothered about.;)

You know I love horses a lot, but I am still more concerned with someone human rights record.

I do wonder how much of it is translation, but he comes across as a bit of a nut - to my mind not a good role model for a kinder way of riding. Too great a chance of bringing discredit to the whole range of new ideas many of us can and do agree on.

I'm not convinced by the concept that having anything on their heads is cruelty to horse - aids are aids, I am sure you can train your horse to turn left/right etc etc on almost any cue given enough time but thats not to say the obvious setup of something to ask them to look right for right and left for left is wrong - at least it is clear! And if I really wanted to allow horses to do their thing why would I ride them at all - wouldn't I just keep them in a field for the joy of seeing them?

It all just seems a bit odd to me, and I'm not sure I like the tone of the site (feels very 'join our special gang, for special people, who know the secret way, and are all beautiful and kind' - like pre teen stuff!) regardless of the other concerns I might have about the guy himself.

To redress the balance a little btw, I usually find esse's posts rather funny - it's just a little sarcasm! Which is supposed to be the standard british sense of humour after all :-)

aj xx

Yann

22nd Feb 2006, 09:19 PM

Oooer, looks like Jacquie pressed the self destruct button:eek:

I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks the non horsey side of a trainer's character is important. This bloke just doesn't add up for me, how can somebody be so exercised about horses being bitted and ridden with gadgets when he's made a career of blowing holes in his fellow human beings, possibly been involved in war crimes and spreads hate and intolerance. It just doesn't add up. I smell a rat here to be honest, is this some sort of desperate attempt at respectability or worse, a moneymaking scam?

Thanks for posting the extract. I know there's a language barrier there but it doesn't seem to say much at all to me. I would be absolutely fascinated to see how the horse is trained sticking religiously to these guidelines, if indeed they actually are.

You are not allowed to make your horse to do anything by forcing your horse.

You are not allowed to make your horse do anything if your horse resists.

And this bloke likes Parelli? Has he never heard of the four phases of friendly persistence or whatever they're called?

FWIW I think your posts are funny too esse. To be honest at least one of the posters you've allegedly driven away seemed incapable of discussing certain topics without getting personal about it so is no great loss.

FRED

22nd Feb 2006, 09:43 PM

Sorry Yann, please check the site re Parelli, the views are those of many of us.
Its small wonder members leave with this idiotic back slapping members club here!!:mad:

Yann

22nd Feb 2006, 10:00 PM

It was actually a serious point - how can you square the use of phases of pressure (and a thin rope halter with a bull clip on it) with the guidelines I quoted?

And if people can't post on here without being insulting and casting aspertions on those who present opposing viewpoints there will tend to be a backlash against them. Irrespective of who they are and what they do.

LodgeRopes

22nd Feb 2006, 10:08 PM

Geez.....you guys have to learn to argue during my time zone!!! I go for a good sleep and this is what happens??? LOL

Thanks for all your comments...I asked for them and thats what I got:rolleyes:

Someones comments on whether I have agreed to turn my back on all equestrian sports ( sorry....couldnt go trawling through all the posts again) is making the assumption that I was for equestrian sports in the first place:) Oh and you didnt read the fine print on the terms of agreement - sorry Jacquie but you also have to give up your first born child, refuse to eat any middle eastern food, and sell your soul to the devil before you can join the forum:cool:
As for Nevzorovs political background....I too did the google searches to find out what I could regarding his background as well...in regard to his horses. Im afraid the rest doesnt interest me. Its unfortunate that we cant find out as much information on Rashid, Parelli or Monty even....dont think they are quite so open about their political views :)
For the record Rashid or Parelli could have voted for George Bush for all I know ( seeing we are talking about right wing fascists) but guess what? I dont care. Im all for human rights, totally against the death penalty, rabid animal rights supporter, and dont have a rascist bone in my body....and if they did vote for George Bush- I might ponder on their mental stability, but it wouldnt stop me admiring their horse training methods.
So...thanks for the comments on the site etc but its obviously not for some people here....which I respect. I tend to get hot under the collar when reading anything about Monty Roberts so I can totally accept your views and opinions.

Cheers
Sharon

ajhainey

22nd Feb 2006, 10:10 PM

Fred - I do hope that is not aimed at me? I very carefully said nothing AGAINST anyone merely an off the cuff comment to make sure esse didn't think everyone had issues with her posting. I barely cross posts with most of the folks on this particular thread so I think it's a little much to call us a back slapping members club?

Anyway I'm a bit confused about the parelli think too. The site seems (to me) to say that parelli level one is good right? But as yann says this level does include persisting until success (increasing pressure as needed). This doesn't seem to mesh well with the 'rules' ambatt kindly quotes above? For example trying something more than 3 times, or attempting anything your horse is resisting.

Please don't read my cynical attitude to this one person as a rejection of modern and progressive techniques - as I said before there is much we can and do agree on! I am naturally inclined to believe barefoot for instance, and bitless bridle are things it would be nice to see more of, as well as herd living and as much turnout as possible, and I do agree breaking and racing so early is wrong for instance, as are many of the awful photos on the site - where I have a problem is in someone adoptig these issues as their ownn'special insight' and trying to say everyone in the world is totally wrong and we are the only two people who are right and it has to be done exactly as we say everytime or you are bad and misguided and cruel. And I dislike the idea of someone with such a chequered past being anyones idol.

Hope that is clearer, apologies if not, and if it's insulting in some way, well I blame the coffee I've been drinkign to keep me awake at work until this hour! :D aj xx

LodgeRopes

22nd Feb 2006, 10:14 PM

It was actually a serious point - how can you square the use of phases of pressure (and a thin rope halter with a bull clip on it) with the guidelines I quoted

Why does anyone have to justify it Yann? Nevzorov is all for the PNH 7 games which uses all of the above. I dont know that the terms of agreement actaully mentioned burning our halters or leadropes.

You obviously dont like the man, methods or site...which is fair enough. So why do you care that others do?

ajhainey

22nd Feb 2006, 10:19 PM

Geez.....you guys have to learn to argue during my time zone!!! I go for a good sleep and this is what happens??? LOL

hehe - NewRider never sleeps. You should give in and move to the Uk :p Nah I'm sure that's why I usually miss the flame wars I usually log off around 7pm and don't log back in till noon (UK time) and miss pretty much anything that happens in america day/evening. You just come in one morning and someone is banned and all the posts edited :rolleyes: aj xx

FRED

22nd Feb 2006, 10:26 PM

ajhainey,:) ,no its not aimed at you.

My problem is this,why do people asume that everyone quote:But as yann says this level does include persisting until success (increasing pressure as needed). This doesn't seem to mesh well with the 'rules' ambatt kindly quotes above?

Do you have to persit, I have never found a need to,so why do you all asume that because Parelli says its gospell.
We see the same people stuck in this rut and its become tedious and ruins threads,the same people,the back slappers.
its put me right off here.

ajhainey

22nd Feb 2006, 10:36 PM

That's fair - I've only seen parelli done at a demo - I don't own my own horse. So I'm just going off the offcial spiel we got at the time and a bit of background reading. I guess like everything there is the gap between what is 'written' and what actually happens i.e the parelli 'theory' is to persist, but you are saying in practice people don't do so because it's not necessary. So in reality it is entirely possible to do parelli type exercises but follow Nevzorova's guidelines about resistance at the same time. I've never tried so I can't say but it sounds reasonable enough to me.

Don't be put off! Lively discussion is what boards are about! If we all just agreed immediately it would be dull (although I would get more work done :D)

aj xx

LodgeRopes

22nd Feb 2006, 10:41 PM

hehe - NewRider never sleeps. You should give in and move to the Uk

LOL....yep...I think your right:D I didnt know what the heck I woke up to this morning...4 pages???? lol
but hey...debate is good ( usually) some of it can get a tad too personal but you take the bits are relevant and leave out the bad:)

I agree Fred - Ive never seen increasing pressure as force, but I guess some that dont understand it or practice it might. Persistence isnt a bad thing unless done to excess or being unwavering about it. Ive never felt the need to do something over and over and over. If the horse doesnt get it or understand what your asking then for me its far easier to change how I ask...break it down until the horse does understand.
I cant see that approach being against the Nevzorov guidelines so I dont feel any hippocrisy in joining the forum and wanting to learn more about the methods. And i wont feel like a failure if after trying it I dont get success or achieve a better relationship with my horses. But i certainly wont blame the method..it will be because it didnt suit me or my babies...or perhaps a lack of understanding on my part.

stormchaser

22nd Feb 2006, 10:51 PM

I've glanced over the website, read the biography of A Nevzorov and his wifey (presumably)...

I'm sorry to say that it seems these people are nothing but 'natural horsemanship' wannabes, and got pretty far with that because of their connections and wealth.

From their biography, I already know which 'power clan' they are in, must have been very chummy with the Russian oligarch Boris Berezovsky (you can google him). Real scum. These are people who have started wars, funded terrorists, killed innocent people and manipulate the government for their own personal agenda.

Of course it all can be quite exciting on the horsey side, but somehow the whole thing--the website, the idea, the people behind it--disgusts me. Maybe it's just me living in Russia for some time.

FRED

22nd Feb 2006, 10:52 PM

:) and we can always use the option,go back to where we had understanding,
rather than go up to no where.

All I want to add now, its remarkable at the moment where the Parelli basics have taken me and Dakota, I don't jest when I say,my 1st horse,who obliterated people,now if we have achived so far what we have,there has to be some good in Parelli too.I will never be dogmatic.

LodgeRopes

22nd Feb 2006, 11:02 PM

So what do you think of the training concepts Storm chaser? Do you think what they suggest and appear to do ie: total relationship with their horse without the use of bits, force or intimidation - is attainable by those who seek it?
I for one would love to be able to achieve collection from a horse on the ground, with only a neck strap. :) Do you think the theory of simple play with the horse will help achieve that?

All I want to add now, its remakable at the moment where the Parelli basics have taken me and Dakota, I don't jest when I say,my 1st horse,who obliterated people,now if we have achived so far what we have,there has to be some good in Parelli too.I will never be dogmatic.

good for you Fred:) Though not a fanatic PNH follower ( I love exploring other methods as well...even if it means I disregard them after looking into them it still means I have learnt something ) I do believe the Parelli basics can benefit all horses - if done correctly of course ;)
It basically saved a couple of my horses and many others from being sold on or worse still ending up at the doggers. And I think, love him or hate him ,Parelli has done more good for horses than any other person I can think of.

stormchaser

22nd Feb 2006, 11:06 PM

I have no objection of the original training concepts itself, but how exactly are they carried out by these people--we can't really tell.

I'm not expert, but there was this video of this horse dancing with it's trainer--that is a good demonstration of true horsemanship that is achieved without bits, force or intimidation, and the horse looks really happy and enjoying its work.

There is something 'dark' about this website. The horses do not look like they are happy with their work. I believe you can still intimidate a horse without force or bits/whips/spurs.

ambatt

22nd Feb 2006, 11:11 PM

From my point of view I cannot understand his methodology and his training regime. They are not based on accepted behaviourist principles, they don't seem to follow any clear logical reasoning. Why should you only ask a horse 3 times for something?
Why is hacking detrimental to the horse?
Nobody has answered these fundamentals or appraised his training critically.

I understand Monty Roberts principles and beliefs, his theories and methodology.
Ditto Pat Parelli

I chose not to use their methods as personally I am not comfortable with them and they don't do it for me.
I was initially very sceptical of Mark Rashid and thought he was yet another leaper onto the natural horsemanship bandwagon. My trainer insisted I should at least read his books before I judged. So I did.
I love Mark Rashid! Yet once again he gives a clear indicator of his methods and practice.
The same cannot be said of Nevzorov - he uses emotive language and images to promote his work, there is no clear strategy and scientific principle outlined on his site and little from the forum (those bits that I have seen) ergo I could not accept his methods as a valid system of training.

Lodgeropes if you truly do stand for all the admirable statements in your post then you really would care about this man's background.
I belong to this:
http://www.aegistrust.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=82&Itemid=257
Ethnic cleansing? Genocide? Cheznya?

stormchaser

22nd Feb 2006, 11:16 PM

I am a bit baffled myself...

The only bit I get:
Here you have this man, a mercenary, a henchman's henchman, manipulative little politician thinking he can take on on Haute Ecole, put his name to it and add his own (rather odd) twist to it, with little logic in the twist.

I am confused! I thought the goal of NH is to produce an obedient but happy horse to work with? These guys are adding fuel to the fire instead.

LodgeRopes

22nd Feb 2006, 11:18 PM

I'm not expert, but there was this video of this horse dancing with it's trainer--that is a good demonstration of true horsemanship that is achieved without bits, force or intimidation, and the horse looks really happy and enjoying its work

Actually thats similar to what is shown on the downloads of Nevzorov's Horse Encyclopaedia....dancing and playing with his horses, lunging them with only a neck strap and the horse is collected and happy, lot of liberty work with the horse racing around, bucking, rearing and Nevzorov playing with it....got to admit you have to have a strong relationship with a horse to stand there while he rears over you....lol...not something I would try!!! At one point he is sitting on the horse while it is lying down grazing and then the horse rolls him off. Nowhere did i see unhappy horses in the downloads. Certainly not compared with some training dvd's anyway

ambatt

22nd Feb 2006, 11:21 PM

Nobody has mentioned Ga Wa Ni Pony Boy's Native American natural horsemanship....

Edited to add:
You can get the same responses that Navzorov gets from his horses from overtly dominant aggressive leadership and subjugation as I mentioned earlier in this post - strong relationship? Quite possibly, but what was the methodology that induced the desired behaviour?

stormchaser

22nd Feb 2006, 11:23 PM

Okay, but that still doesn't answer some of the questions that ambatt brought up...

I am still not convinced by the credibility of the whole website, especially when it shows disturbing images of injured horses in 'cruel' equine sport (which it denounces) and the way younger riders jab horses in their mouths with bits... kinda like animal cruelty websites.

LodgeRopes

22nd Feb 2006, 11:25 PM

Lodgeropes if you truly do stand for all the admirable statements in your post then you really would care about this man's background.
I belong to this:

Not at all Ambatt. One has nothing to do with the other in my view. Did you email Rashid on his political beliefs before you decided to follow his horse training methods? If thats a criteria for you to decide if someone is worthy of listening to then by all means...dismiss everything Nevzorov says....or start a thread about it entitled Politics and horsemanship.

A persons religion, political beliefs or personal relationships dont come into my summing up of a horseman...never have..never will :)

ambatt

22nd Feb 2006, 11:36 PM

Well for me human rights will always come before horse training - I am sorry if this might offend people.

Perhaps people could answer the questions I have posed in this thread? They are constructive and relevant and relate directly to Nevzorov's training methods ( or perceived lack of them).

LodgeRopes

22nd Feb 2006, 11:47 PM

Well for me human rights will always come before horse training - I am sorry if this might offend people

Ambatt, I dont think your personal beliefs would offend anyone...same as my personal beliefs shouldnt offend :) You have your own valid reasons behind your beliefs as do I.

With regards to answers to your questions....I think rather than asking people here for answers you should go directly to the source. Speaking for myself I have only been aware of the website and Nevzorov for just under a week, and dont believe I have a good enough understanding of the principles or methods yet. But if you truly want answers and cant find them in the HE forum then there are people in that forum that are much more qualified than anyone here to answer you:)
But if it doesnt matter what the answers are, say if you have already made up your mind about Nevzorov and his methods then it would probably be a waste of your time and theirs;)

Has Rashid replied to your email about his political beliefs yet? Just curious as to the answer...would hate to think he is a Bush supporter:(

ambatt

23rd Feb 2006, 12:00 AM

LodgeRopes

23rd Feb 2006, 12:28 AM

I dont think I was sniping Ambatt....as you didnt mean offense with your comments I certainly didnt mean offense with mine:)

Actually, I do know a little about Mark Rashid's personal philosophies as he has

I think the question pertained to Political beliefs not personal philosophies.

I also didnt think i was being anything other than polite, adult or objective as well, but if you have taken my posts the wrong way then Im sorry!:)

The link to HE is in the very first post I believe.

ambatt

23rd Feb 2006, 07:56 AM

"On the ancient Haute Ecole emblem where De Nester’s words “A horse is always right” are written a choker - a caste sign of the North-American whisperers of the horses - has recently appeared. (speaks Lacothian). It shows how much the Haute Ecole school owes to the caste of the North-American horse whisperer ."
from:http://www.hauteecole.ru/en/horse_encyclopaedia.php?sid=25&id=57

Really?
What an interesting observation.
Comments please.

Tots N Dots

23rd Feb 2006, 09:16 AM

I nearly posted on this thread the other night but having had one too many vodkas thought I had better not, I have been following it with interest and now I am sober :D :D :D

I had looked at the website not knowing anything about his background etc, and not wanting to comment on his particular training / methods as I dont have enough knowledge to do so, but if everything that is done other than "his way" is "evil" or "wrong" then it does sound pretty much a cult way of thinking, I am always open to new ideas and try to be open minded, I happen to agree with some of what he says, its the undertone I dont like, I have a youngster rising 3, he isn't bitted yet, I say yet as my belief is that in the current horse world, he will need to be educated to a bit for his own future, (barring acts of god he will be with me for life, but things can and do happen), but I just can not bring myself to put a bit in his mouth? but reading the website made me feel it was wrong to have a horse full stop, and surely to be completely without cruelty horses should be in the wild running free with no human intervention, to look at it from Nevzorov's extreem, surely training the horse full stop is an act of cruelty no matter how the horse is trained? as you are still imposing your will on his, no matter how it is done, I would love to be able to train a horse to that standard, and in a perfect world, I would have the perfect life with the perfect facilities, with the time to learn and the time to train my horse, but to some degree isn't wanting "perfection" and imperfection in itself? as this makes us have a closed mind and not open to new ideas, and who has the right to state what "perfection" is? as the concept differs from one person to another, we are cruel to each other as a human race, without animals even entering the equation, each person is unique and will have general but unique ideas of what is correct and what isn't, its called a conscience? :o

cvb

23rd Feb 2006, 09:21 AM

Actually, I do know a little about Mark Rashid's personal philosophies as he has come over and worked with my trainer and his osteopath has done two clinics here with my trainer. Please do not snipe at me, I am being polite, adult and objective.

I am saying I would like to know more about his methods - that way I can appraise them critically - whether I like the man or not is irrelevant.

Could you post the link for the HE site I am not familiar with it.

Like Ambatt, I have ridden at and attended a couple of Mark's clinics. Whilst this does not lead me to understand his political beliefs, I do think I start to get an idea of the values he chooses to live by... only an idea mind you. What I saw at the clinics was consistent with what I read in the books. And the observation wasn't just about the horses - but about how he reacted to and responded to the audience, and their attitudes etc.

I think I may have to confess to being a bit of a hypocrit myself given what I posted before (a person's values determine their political point of view, and those same values will affect how they relate - to other people, animals etc). I know I have stepped aside from the various stories on Monty Roberts because I didn't feel I could ever know enough to comment, and that I should look at what I saw in his interaction with horses and people that I could see and observe myself as a good guide.

By the way,. the earlier post from the forum had Lidia as the author, not Alexander...

Just to pick up on some of the "rules" in there - the "only do an exercise 3 times" is surely a rule for the person not for the horse. The horse doesn't know "three", but it knows repetition.

I find it hard to decide where I stand on this site/approach etc without being better informed on it - and the translation issues do make that more difficult. But my feeling so far is that I do not sense an underlying structure and logic to this (that I have found in other approaches). It feels to me that it is dealing with the surface, the symptoms, the superficial (in the literal sense) - with the outside and not the inside.

LodgeRopes

23rd Feb 2006, 09:49 AM

I find it hard to decide where I stand on this site/approach etc without being better informed on it - and the translation issues do make that more difficult. But my feeling so far is that I do not sense an underlying structure and logic to this (that I have found in other approaches).

Thats pretty much how I felt about it at first cvb. I dont know if parelli level 3 has changed much over the past few years but when I first took a look at the tasks in that, i felt they were very esoteric and instead of the more traditional approaches of teaching horsemanship, it relied on you to use your imagination and try to figure out for yourself how to do it. The way I value a training method or ideology is to see if:
1 - will it cause harm or pain to my horse
2 - can I understand it in a way that I can communicate what i want to my horse
3 - will it cause me pain or harm in any way
4 - does it conflict with my current training methods.

From the very little I have picked up from the HE site I believe it does have merit ( according to my criteria) and Im willing to try and learn more.

but if everything that is done other than "his way" is "evil" or "wrong" then it does sound pretty much a cult way of thinking

I agree with you Tots...but I also realise that many people describe the Parelli training levels in the same way so at the moment Im not too worried about the "cult" aspect :)
but reading the website made me feel it was wrong to have a horse full stop, and surely to be completely without cruelty horses should be in the wild running free with no human intervention, to look at it from Nevzorov's extreem, surely training the horse full stop is an act of cruelty no matter how the horse is trained? as you are still imposing your will on his, no matter how it is done

Again I struggled with whether any of nevzorovs concepts were attainable or realistic...then decided ,for me it doesnt matter. If i could achieve a 100th of what Nevzorov apparently has with his horses then I would be more than happy.

Many years ago I was a vegetarian - strictly on moral grounds. Never looked down on those that ate meat ( in fact Rob is the son of a butcher so go figure;) I would then occasionaly have some Vegans come along and say that I didnt care about animals at all because I didnt become a Vegan...lol
So I do what I can to live by own moral standards and if someone does better then me then more power to them:) But i dont like to look down or stand in judgement of someone who at least tries to make things better for horses...nor do I ridicule those that have higher ideals than myself. If I cant or dont want to become extreme in my views that shouldnt stop me from doing as much as I can according to my own standards..not someone elses:)
I can disregard the extremeties of PNH, Nevzorov or any one else who comes along...but If I gain a little bit of knowledge about a better way then Im quite happy with that and quite prepared to become as informed as I can about it.

And darn it I want my horse to pick up a volley ball...LOL

cvb

23rd Feb 2006, 09:55 AM

didn't mean to suggest that I look down or disregard people with different values to my own :eek:

more than if an approach is going to suit me it needs to fit with my values...

and secondly that you can often get an idea of people's values from their behaviour and interactions - as it is their values that direct their behaviour.

this often what is behind that "instant understanding" you find (or don't find ;) ) when you meet people. If they use a familiar framework of communication, use similar key words etc - they are already in our comfort zone and its easier for us to relax and be open with them (and vice versa).

Skib

23rd Feb 2006, 10:07 AM

Mark Rashid often complains that reports by "women" misprepresent what he is doing.
He does not classify himself as NH. He is regarded as a fit subject for the NH section of this board, because he doesnt fit properly anywhere else. But Rashid can hardly be accused of jumping on a NH bandwaggon. He shoes his horses, and rides them in tack conventional for the area in which he lives, that is he uses bits and a treed saddle.
His shared basis with NH (my view not his) lies in his interest in the physical and mental capabilities and characteristics of horses, both as a species and as individuals. He uses these insights to facilitate communication between horse and rider. He gained this understanding from his own teacher and continually adds to it as he works year after year with more students and horses.
His approach is not formulaic. There is no sending away of every horse, or join up. Sure, someone like myself or cvb can say we try to ride the way Mark Rashid teaches and when he comes to a demo, it is often with a particular theme to impart. But he is not a superman leader. He is a horseman looking for solutions for people who ask his advice, and his success with some horses and riders is greater than with others. Both in his books and demos, he is a sharer of ideas.

LodgeRopes

23rd Feb 2006, 10:15 AM

didn't mean to suggest that I look down or disregard people with different values to my own

more than if an approach is going to suit me it needs to fit with my values...

Oh goodness CVB...no no no...lol...I wasnt implying that you do...lol...honestly! With some of the comments on here I was justifying my own position and thoughts in a general way...not as a direct response to you post...lol and quite often I do that badly!!!

But, I do think there is a lot of people who can be rather judgemental and I was commenting on that rather than toward anyone in particular!

I think we all gravitate to a certain method or trainer because it or they fit our own values or ,as you say ,there is a familiarity in the communication.

I have a background in Animal rights and animal activism and so some of the (what appear to be )extreme views of Nevzorov ( or his wife) actually felt quite comfortable to me...lol...not to say that I agreed 100% with everything that I have read on there but what might of seemed extreme or unrealistic to some actually seemed quite logical to me...hope that makes sense:)

Cheers
Sharon

cvb

23rd Feb 2006, 10:17 AM

possibly slightly off topic here but as an illustration of the idea of task vs principles...

My mother has been watching the Silversands Basic videos as her new pony was backed that way. I have yet to borrow them.. but she commented last night that Steve H does "sideways" off a circle, not along a fence (as parelli L1 does).

For me this is applying the principles in a different context - and I'm much more interesting in the principles of an approach. But often we can only learn the principles through practice and application (gosh, I'm starting to sound like an NVQ or work-based learning person :eek: :p - showing my current colours I guess :) ).

I think this is why I've lingered at PNH L1 so long - because videoing the assessment tasks has never been the main event for me.

And I guess (to bring it back on topic vaguely) thats why I struggle a bit with the HC info - I find it hard to distill the underlying principles. However I think I would probably have the same struggle with websites from other people - Lyons, Parelli, Rashid etc so its probably not a fair way to judge.

cvb

23rd Feb 2006, 10:23 AM

Sharon

no worries - its not that you implied that, more that reading your post made me realise that I HAD implied it ! ;)

ambatt

23rd Feb 2006, 10:29 AM

I think that is why I was drawn to him in the first place - his sound common sense.

I admire Monty Roberts more for his business accumen and approaches to Human Psychology. I have seen him several times.

I found Parelli's methods difficult to work with, this is entirely my own view, it just does not appeal to me on any level.

My reasons for admiring Ga Wa Ni Pony Boy have no place on a public forum;)

I love and respect my horses, I try and keep them as naturally as healthily as I can, they are barefoot and live out (with rugs and shelter). I try to give them as natural a diet as I can without compromising their health.

I am open minded to other techniques and NH principles, but I have to understand the reasons and rationale and theories behind it.

I find Alexander Nevzorov's methods perplexing and ill conceived, they seem cobbled and garbled representations of other people's work. He states on his website he works behind closed doors and people cannot watch him work. Does that not ring warning bells? Is he so much the Grand Maestro that he cannot be seen and is beyond the ken of mere mortals? He seems to promote his 'Haute Ecole' as an estoric system fit only for the initiated, who must fit in with his ideals and concepts (and I find that degree of rigid selection worrying) His background is in trick riding - i would like to know how those horses were trained. The Naprous family produce equally stunning levels of ridden and liberty work with their horses and team 'The Devils Horsemen' - I have seen and met them on several occasions. Their horses seem happy, I cannot comment on their training methods, but I can ask.

katefarmer

23rd Feb 2006, 10:43 AM

I'm afraid Alexander Nevzorov is ringing my suspicious journalist's alarm bells.

When you do a search his other life he's clearly a master of spin and of making persuasive (or not!) arguements to fit his own agenda. With someone who is such an apparently unscrupulous manipulator of politics and opinion in one sphere of life, I can't help suspecting that he's using the same techniques in selling his idea of horses and training. (Not that the ideas are necessarily bad, I just question the motivation and presentation).

Kate
www.harmony-project.net

ambatt

23rd Feb 2006, 10:45 AM

"I have a background in Animal rights and animal activism and so some of the (what appear to be )extreme views of Nevzorov ( or his wife) actually felt quite comfortable to me
Cheers
Sharon"
I am a human rights campaigner - this is why I am not comfortable with Nevzorov.
I still have no clarification on his methods, his training regime, his method of working.
Until then as I have said, I will reserve my critical opinion.

Tots N Dots

23rd Feb 2006, 10:50 AM

He is a horseman looking for solutions

I think this describes us all :D the problem being I end up trawling through and questioning all the different solutions that I end up so confused (maybe just have limited brain capacity :D ) I forget what the origional problem was I wanted to solve, as reading everything I find I have a lot more "problems" than I first thought, :D

I am open minded to other techniques and NH principles, but I have to understand the reasons and rationale and theories behind it

exactly!

LodgeRopes

23rd Feb 2006, 10:51 AM

no worries - its not that you implied that, more that reading your post made me realise that I HAD implied it !

phewwwwww...think Im just a bit head shy. lol I think this format can often cause miscommunication or a misinterpretation of words, so I was worried that I hadnt explained myslef clearly...but if its all your fault then great!:D lol

I can relate to what you say about understanding the underlying principles. If I cant find some logic or clarity when trying to learn a certain method I get very frustrated. I need to know why, how, when, where and who before even attempting to try new things...and even then I prefer to watch someone do it before I throw myself in :)

With the Haute ecole site I found myself very frustrated at first - trying to understand what is being asked of the horse, and then trying to work out and visualise how to do it. Then coming up with all the reasons under the sun about why it wouldnt work, then distracting myself with ransacking the garage for that damn volley ball ( buying a new one tomorrow..lol)
I had a small moment of clarity recalling how my foal Kismet would play and carry things around and how easy he was to teach the games to and accept a saddle blanket or anything on his back and I believe alot of that has to do with the way he was treated...it wasnt like a typical training session..in fact he would often pick the game and I would go with the flow. Wont go into all the long details about what that has to do with Nevzorov, but basically this moment of clarity or recollection made me think that alot of his methods arent unattainable and that the horse may actually find it easier to understand what I am asking of them. It also made me realise I may understand more of what Nevzorov is trying to say than i first thought. I think alot of the methods of NH almost spoonfeed us with the answers when we really need to just sit back and think about the methods and how they apply to us and our horses.
Sorry for rambling and I apologise for the esoteric tone of this post...lol..Im the least esoteric person I know usually but I got something ( still not 100% sure what) when I went to that site and that makes me think there just might be something in it for me..could be wrong and this time next week could be selling an almost new volley ball on ebay...lol...only teeth marks in it will be mine ;) but I do want to explore further:)

LodgeRopes

23rd Feb 2006, 11:07 AM

questioning all the different solutions that I end up so confused (maybe just have limited brain capacity ) I forget what the origional problem was I wanted to solve, as reading everything I find I have a lot more "problems" than I first thought,

Oh tots.... that happens to me on a daily basis!!!!:) I think its called overload!

I think that is why I was drawn to him in the first place - his sound common sense.

I think your refering to Rashid here ambatt? I agree...having read his books ( which at times touched on the esoteric but in a way that really made you think or reassess things) and seen one DVD I do like his methods. I also like his no gimmick approach to things...just use what you have at hand rather than buy the plastic bag, the stick etc etc.:)

When you do a search his other life he's clearly a master of spin and of making persuasive (or not!) arguements to fit his own agenda. With someone who is such an apparently unscrupulous manipulator of politics and opinion in one sphere of life, I can't help suspecting that he's using the same techniques in selling his idea of horses and training. (Not that the ideas are necessarily bad, I just question the motivation and presentation).

Kate, thats how I felt when I first stumbled across the site! Then I did the google search to find out about him ( horse wise ..and came up with very little) then went back to the site and thought ok...if its not going to cost me money, if I dont have a problem with the concept of training a horse with no force, intimidation, and with a minimum of equipment, if I can make some sense of the whole thing and it doesnt conflict with the methods I currently use then I dont mind looking into it further. I wouldnt be surprised if there is a catch to it all...or that things perhaps are not what they seem. But as yet I cant see that and cant work out if he isnt even trying to sell his dvd what is in it for him??? He is already very well know, had his own tv show etc etc so is it just delusions of granduer or is it a more sinister agenda? I just dont know at this stage.....but as Im not about to run off to Russia, or join a right wing political party then Im not sure if it matters ( to me at least)

and Kate, i dare say your suspicions may be well founded...and I would love to know if you find out anything regarding his treatment and training of horses:)

I am a human rights campaigner - this is why I am not comfortable with Nevzorov.
I still have no clarification on his methods, his training regime, his method of working.
Until then as I have said, I will reserve my critical opinion.

Then I can fully understand where your coming from Ambatt :) If human rights had been more my thing than animal rights I dare say I would feel exactly the same!

Tots N Dots

23rd Feb 2006, 11:12 AM

I had a small moment of clarity recalling how my foal Kismet would play and carry things around and how easy he was to teach the games to and accept a saddle blanket or anything on his back and I believe alot of that has to do with the way he was treated...it wasnt like a typical training session..in fact he would often pick the game and I would go with the flow.

Bex started picking up his food skip with his teeth after he had finished his tea, I just added the word "Ta", so now if I say Ta he passes me the skip, he created the game I just added the word,

I do think that I sometimes get so concerned with doing things in the 2correct" way and then questioning it, that it all ends up a bit stiff? I forget the Natural bit, and forget the enjoyment bit, I put off doing things, not because I am scared of doing it, but because I am scared of doing it wrong, I have been very heavily critisized (sp?) over the last couple of years as I am very nervous after a bad accident, being critisized has made me even worse, I have very little to do with the said people now, thank goodness, but I doubt myself in so many areas now because of this, I am so scared of getting it wrong, as it was made clear they thought I would ruin the super little horse I now have, I have to admit I really like Monty Roberts, It doesn't mean I dont question what or how he does it, but I like him because he has personally told me to question it, as that is how we find out more and learn for ourselves, I just need more hours in my day to do it all :D

:D :D :D can everyone just have a poll then I can turn into a sheep and just follow the majority whole heartedly :D :D :D (joke:o )

ambatt

23rd Feb 2006, 11:19 AM

"I think your refering to Rashid here ambatt? "

Yes sorry, was so slow typing several people got in before me! Yes I was referring to Mark R, but I do find his most recent training philosophies difficult and I have many discussions with my trainer. I just can't cope with his martial arts philosophy and 'energy' discussions because I cannot engage with the principles.

With AN I accept his feelings for wanting to give our horses a more comfortable and fulfilled life, isn't that we all strive for? But I just do not trust his principles and motives (politics aside). There is no clear path, no clear aims, no method statement.Maybe we have been spoonfed by other NH exponents, but it feels comforting to have a security blanket of ideas, goals and aims already written down.

Tots n Dots - I know exactly where you are coming from! I have been offered the horse of my dreams, she is 6 years old and I am absolutely terrified of ruining her - I think I have put her on too much of a pedestal, if she was one of my dear hairy Icelandics I would not be like this! I too have issues with nervousness following a couple of riding accidents.

LodgeRopes

23rd Feb 2006, 11:22 AM

do think that I sometimes get so concerned with doing things in the 2correct" way and then questioning it, that it all ends up a bit stiff? I forget the Natural bit, and forget the enjoyment bit, I put off doing things, not because I am scared of doing it, but because I am scared of doing it wrong

LOL....I can totally relate to that Tots! Its one of the reasons I didnt pursue level 2 Parelli ( lack of time and a differing of opinion on some points also contributed) :)

I find retraining a horse so much easier than actually starting a horse mainly because Im so worried I will damage or soil the "clean slate" so to speak! I think its just a lack of confidence and belief in yourself. Once you realise that you have the horse's best interests at heart and that horses are extremely patient and forgiving ( lets face it they have to be with us humans..lol) then the worry of doing it wrong subsides. :)

LodgeRopes

23rd Feb 2006, 11:34 AM

There is no clear path, no clear aims, no method statement.Maybe we have been spoonfed by other NH exponents, but it feels comforting to have a security blanket of ideas, goals and aims already written down

Yep...working without a safety net is daunting! Often i dont have a choice about that...pretty isolated from good NH trainers and a bit head shy about several who claim to be good but really havent got the concept or ideals clear in their own mind before they go out to make a living from it!!!

So Im all for spoonfeeding...lol...but I have to like the taste of it as well..and I have found quite a lot of the training methods lacking in one way or another. Unfortunately its the ones that are the most accessible that I often find lacking in one area or another :) I guess its what drives me to look for a better way at times and to explore different techniques and methods.

Would love Rashid to come back to Australia ( now that I know who he is..lol) but he doesnt seem to be that well known here. There are a few followers here but no where near enough in my opinion!

cvb

23rd Feb 2006, 11:35 AM

our speaker on Tuesday (awards lunch) quoted this poem
http://www.yuni.com/library/docs/363.html
:D

LodgeRopes

23rd Feb 2006, 11:42 AM

Beautiful poem...and very appropriate!!!:) Gosh it must be late...Im getting way to mushy and sentimental...lol Night all...and please save the arguments till I get up:( I hate missing out ;)

cvb

23rd Feb 2006, 11:47 AM

Would love Rashid to come back to Australia ( now that I know who he is..lol) but he doesnt seem to be that well known here. There are a few followers here but no where near enough in my opinion!

well if the mountain won't go to mohammed....

you can go and do one of clinics in colorado, they have a few spaces on some clinics for people who hire one of the horses at the ranch (a friend's) :D

if only I had the money, I'd be booking a place right now...

ambatt

23rd Feb 2006, 11:49 AM

And me!

FRED

23rd Feb 2006, 03:10 PM

Quote:
I have to admit I really like Monty Roberts, It doesn't mean I don't question what or how he does it, but I like him because he has personally told me to question it, as that is how we find out more and learn for ourselves, I just need more hours in my day to do it all

Same here, I also like his work for Humanity too.

I have seriously questioned a few things I have seen at Monty demos{been to 4} and just once, really didn't like what I was seeing, but who is perfect? and never makes a mistake.. the horse was dripping with sweat and trembling, as much as I like Monty, my own feeling was this horse should have been pardoned from any further demo work.He needed the quiet new start, no doubts about it.I can be concerened about Parelli, but there's is good in there too.Im sure they may find faults in my ways.
At one demo a few people grumbled about a horse that was saddled,but no pilot ;) .While it was very clear to see that you would be a astronaut had you been silly enough to try, what can you say, some considered this a failure.

I know little about Mark Rashid, but I'm sure I will eventually get round to finding out more.I suspect many of today's ' names ' owe much to Dorrance and Hunt, there are so many similarities,all be different words.
I never noticed there names on the web site.

Any more options, going off a bit here LodgeRopes

ambatt

23rd Feb 2006, 04:35 PM

Mark Rashid's website:

http://www.markrashid.com/index.htm

He is the UK in November, date to be confirmed.

And take your pick!
http://www.naturalhorsetraining.com/trainersites.html

I see that Dorrance and Hunt were from Salinas CA - is that not where Monty was from?

Yann

23rd Feb 2006, 07:33 PM

I have seriously questioned a few things I have seen at Monty demos

I've not been wholly comfortable with everything I've seen either, but a lot of that may be down to the demo format, the time constraints and the desire to show the audience a result. For me there's sometimes too much pressure and too much speed. However I've also seen some very impressive and moving things too, and if you look at it in terms of an educational experience that might make people reconsider and improve the way they relate to their horses then there are a lot of positives to the whole thing.

Fred, I suspect Mark Rashid will be very much up your street :)

Tots N Dots

23rd Feb 2006, 08:00 PM

However I've also seen some very impressive and moving things too, and if you look at it in terms of an educational experience that might make people reconsider and improve the way they relate to their horses then there are a lot of positives to the whole thing. I have to say I agree, I realise they have very tight time constraints, but I would sooner pay more for the ticket and see it over a longer time period, I think I would gain alot more out of it, but of course that means more work and probably even more time constraints :) an evening isn't enough

FRED

23rd Feb 2006, 10:10 PM

Hi Yann,

Quote: My goal is to leave the world a better place than I found it-for horses and people, too. Monty Roberts.

I have seen some magical moments too:) , I think expectations do run a little high at Demos.

Well lodgeropes, through your thread I have been led to Mark Rashid{and nearly into the dog house, wouldn't be the 1st time where horse are concerned;) ]
Well you guys are spot on, I found so much good energy there at Mark Rashids web site:) , so where to start.

There must be your answer out there too..fingers crossed.

Ambatt:thanks, and I belive Monty is from Salinas CA

cvb

24th Feb 2006, 09:29 AM

ambatt

sigh - even if he's here in Nov, he might not make it up to Scotland. If he does, I'll have my name down so fast you won't see me move ;)

but I figure its probably further for LodgeRopes to come to UK than to go to Colorado...?

LodgeRopes

24th Feb 2006, 09:46 AM

Hmmm...well Colorado is 17 hrs away..not sure on the UK! Unfortunately I had my once and a lifetime trip to Colorado 4 years ago:( Beautiful place but I didnt know about Rashid back then. I think he is near or in Estes Park...which I visited....grrrrrrr!
Rashid and Pony boy are some of the few clinicians that dont seem to have Trainers in other countries who follow their techniques. Is that because they are fairly new on the scene compared to PP, MR, JL etc? Or is it because they dont have a system as such? Or does the UK have Rashid trainers?

I do like Pony Boy's methods as well Ambatt...very non confrontational, very calm and mostly common sense and logic ( well seems logical to me..lol) less bravado and showmanship. Have only read a book and seen one DVD but I was impressed with the way he explains things :)

Skib

24th Feb 2006, 09:59 AM

There are no auditors at Mark Rashid's Loveland clinics (nr Estes Park).
Mark does sometimes in his UK demos seem to suggest that one should go to the USA, if one wants to watch him ride. OH took me to Estes Park and you can't watch there. It is private, for riders only. But he does other clinics in the USA and I guess it depends where the clinic is.
If you apply to ride in Loveland you can ride one of Mark's horses. I may do that one day.

cvb

24th Feb 2006, 10:14 AM

LodgeRopes

DOH !!! (slaps forehead)

One of Mark's ex-assistants has just emigrated from Scotland to NZ... now isn't that a bit closer !!! :D She's a lovely person and I MUST put you guys in contact somehow...

EDIT: do I have your permission to pass your website and email to her ??

katefarmer

24th Feb 2006, 10:49 AM

Rashid and Pony boy are some of the few clinicians that dont seem to have Trainers in other countries who follow their techniques.

Actually, Pony Boy does ... http://www.ponyboy.com/advisors.php - though it seems long hair is compulsory! :D

Also, I'm not sure how good the preparation for these people is.. a few of my students have seen the guy in Vienna and say it's pretty horrific and they wouldn't let him anywhere near their horses. Apparently he's very hard on the horses and doesn't seem to have much logic or rationale other than "this is what Pony Boy does".

However, those who've shopped around say we're the gentlest and most reasoned and thought out approach they've found - so I guess my students are coming from one "extreme" in a way, and are perhaps more critical than others might be! :D

Kate
www.harmony-project.net

leoquine

24th Feb 2006, 11:07 AM

There are a lot of good things about him, but a lot of bad things about him. I love how he likes his horses a lot -- enough to let them roam around without a halter and he treats them like an equal. They obviously love him too. But it's not like he loves his horses more than Parelli loves his horses or Monty Roberts loves his horses. I don't like how he says that they are bad, because Parelli has helped a lot of horses, and so has many other types of natural horsemanship.
Another thing I don't like is how he disaproves bits. It's not like everyone who uses a bit uses them cruelly. Horses are built differently than us. Not that it doesn't hurt them a lot if we yank the reins. I imagine it might sting a bit if someone was pulling back on the reins at a medium strength, and it probably would hurt if someone was yanking on their head as hard as they could.
The 'meanest' bit I ever used on a horse was a pelham, and he took it in eagerly. He foamed at the mouth too, which means he has a relaxed jaw and he was accepting it. If horses didn't like the bit, they could very well just not open their mouths, just like if they don't want someone on their back, they just buck. The pictures in the horror's section are very scary, but the people who are riding them are obviously not respecting them. I see that some of the horse's mouths are bleeding, but it's not like everyone who uses a bit will use them to that extent. I have very soft hands and my horse responds very well to them. She slobbers too so she obviously accepts it. It doesn't mean she loves it but it means she's okay with it.

That's all I have to say for now :)