Questions from the Monty Roberts Demo

[raingodz]

I went to see a Monty Roberts demo on Friday and found it very interesting, but it has left me with the following questions...

1) Monty Roberts said that he thought lunging with a single line was bad, but he did not say why, can any one tell me why he thinks this?

2) He was working in a very suitable round pen for the demo, how much harder is it to use the techniques he demonstrated in say a standard 20x40 menage?

3) He started each demo by getting the horse to run (trot and canter) about 500 meters (250m in either direction of the round pen) and although this seems essential to the pre join up procedure I was a little unsure of why, is this exploiting some kind of fear mechanism or is something else happening?

I think that is all for now, I know I need to read some more of my Kelly Marks books (as they might answer these questions). I hope none of these questions are too controversial, I don't want to start a flame war :o

[Sarah-B]

1) Monty Roberts said that he thought lunging with a single line was bad, but he did not say why, can any one tell me why he thinks this?

My instructor is Adam Goodfellow (who helps Monty when on tour) and I've learned how to long-line like Monty with two lines. Lunging with one line is bad for a couple of reasons:

* It can make horses one sided, as they travel in a circle they lean into the pressure from the person holding the line in the centre and this can create back/neck problems (TC is reluctant to canter on the right and Adam says the stiffness is due to him being lunged previously).

* Horses don't really learn anything from going round and round in a circle - they just switch off. If you longline and use the whole school instead of going round in an endless circle you will see your horses ear fixed on you as they listen to what you are asking them to do.

* If lunging is so good for horses why do they say only do 10 minutes on each rein? - Because it puts excessive strain on muscles and joints.

2) He was working in a very suitable round pen for the demo, how much harder is it to use the techniques he demonstrated in say a standard 20x40 menage?

It's not much harder to do join up/long line in a regular school - our school is about 20x40 we have no trouble - you just have to run further to send the horse away!! When long lining in a school rather than a round pen you wouldn't go in a circle - you would utilise the whole area using your body language to communicate to the horse where to go - look directly in his eye with your chest towards him, walking level with his saddle area and he will go in a straight line. To turn on the same rein, drop back nearer to the horses tail, this "opens up" the space and enables the horse to turn into it.

To change rein is trickier, you take up the right rein, give with the left and block in front of the horse - this makes them turn around and change the rein (Monty does this so well you can hardly see him doing anything)!!

If while longlining you stand still and use submissive body language; bringing your shoulder forward and down and dropping your eyes, your horse will stop and come to you - join-up on long-lines!! This obviously really strengthens your bond.

3) He started each demo by getting the horse to run (trot and canter) about 500 meters (250m in either direction of the round pen) and although this seems essential to the pre join up procedure I was a little unsure of why, is this exploiting some kind of fear mechanism or is something else happening?

As you know Monty "learned" the language Equus from observing wild mustangs, Monty noticed that when sending a youngster away the matriarch would make him go about 500 metres....


HTH :)

[Colorado Sunset]

I think Sarah-B answered the first two Qs fine, however the last one... Ive also been debating this with myself recently.

3) He started each demo by getting the horse to run (trot and canter) about 500 meters (250m in either direction of the round pen) and although this seems essential to the pre join up procedure I was a little unsure of why, is this exploiting some kind of fear mechanism or is something else happening?


Like Sarah-B said, in the wild dominant mares sometimes send a youngster away if they have done some thing wrong. However this only happens if the horse has stepped out of line, not purely for the sake of "creating" a bond with the horse. What Monty Roberts does is send the horse away as soon as he gets into the pen, why? because he wants the horse to ultimately follow him round... Now, if you are acting like a predator for no apparent reason (ie the horse hasnt done anything to deserve it), in the wild a horse would purely run, it would not come back to you, as it has no reason to. In a round pen the horse runs until it realises that you arnt going to eat it!

Now, I would prefer to give the horse the benefit of the doubt, trying to work with it, before sending it away, as this does cause the horse to panick in some sence. I would prefer my horse to WANT to be with me, as opposed to thinking it has no other option.

I hope this makes sence, Im not very good at explaining myself :rolleyes: (btw I have recently been reading Mark Rashid's books, which have lead to me rethinking the whole monty roberts method! Id highly recommend them if you havnt already read them)

Jo

[JaffaAndMe]

Sarah's explained that pretty well. Just to add, when a horse is in 'flight' mode they normally run approx 1/4 mile or 500m before stopping and assessing the situation.

[Sarah-B]

Now, if you are acting like a predator for no apparent reason (ie the horse hasnt done anything to deserve it), in the wild a horse would purely run, it would not come back to you, as it has no reason to. In a round pen the horse runs until it realises that you arnt going to eat it!

While some of what you said makes sense (i.e a horse only being sent away by a dominant mare if he has stepped out of line) - I don't agree with the above statement - Monty isn't acting like a *predator* by sending the horse away (indeed what predator would send a prey animal away?) - he is acting like a dominant mare.

The horse doesn't run around the pen until he realises he isn't going to be eaten, he is not viewing Monty as a predator but as a strange human who seems to be able to "talk" his language.The horse makes the decision that he would rather stop running now so starts with submissive behaviour (ear locking onto Monty, licking & chewing and head dropping) - as soon as these signs appear Monty changes his body language to submissive and "invites" the horse in.

[Colorado Sunset]

Sarah-B

This is from Monty's website

Working in a round pen, one begins Join-Up® by making large movements and noise as a predator would and begins driving the horse to run away.

Im not saying that everything Monty does is wrong, in fact I admire a lot of what he does, its just Im beginning to rethink little bits...

Jo

[Sarah-B]

Interesting - could you let me have a link to that? I'd like to read more....

[Colorado Sunset]

Of course :) here (http://www.montyroberts.com/ju_about.html)
The rest is pretty much what we already know :)

Its I think the 3rd paragraph down. Like I said before, I do like the techniques monty uses, its just the sending away Im thinking twice about at the moment.

Jo

[Colorado Sunset]

Ive just dug out "The Man who Listens to Horses" and he says it in a different way, although Im not too sure about this either...

Stand near the centre of the pen and introduce yourself by rubbing with the flat of your hand the horse's forehead, even if you are already aquainted. Now move away and toward the rear of the horse. When you are behind him or the animal flees, whichever comes first, pitch the line towards the rear quaters. The line can fall on him, but DO NOT HIT. At this point almost all babies will take flight and proceed around the pen. The horse is retreating so you must advance. Keep the pressure on. You must maintain an agressive mode: your eyes drilled onto his eyes and your shoulder axis square with his head.

One of the bits that I question:

Firstly you introduce yourself, the horse is happy, so are you. Then suddenly the horse is sent away. The horse has no idea why this has happened, it has stood there quite quietly and all of a sudden the person has changed character from a nice man patting his head to a predator... How can the horse trust a person that (in his opinion) has such mood swings!

Jo

P.S. Sorry raingodz! We have stolen your thread somewhat!

[raingodz]

Thankyou sarah-b for that detailed reply. On point two, I can see what you are saying, but I think I was not detailed enough on my question, I was wondering mostly about the process of sending the horse away at the start, which worked well in a round pen but I was struggleing to see how well in would work in a 20x40 menage.

Thanks Colorado Sunset for your additions on point 3.

[raingodz]

Firstly you introduce yourself, the horse is happy, so are you. Then suddenly the horse is sent away. The horse has no idea why this has happened, it has stood there quite quietly and all of a sudden the person has changed character from a nice man patting his head to a predator... How can the horse trust a person that (in his opinion) has such mood swings!

P.S. Sorry raingodz! We have stolen your thread somewhat!
That OK, this is a interesting point you make.

[Tots N Dots]

One of the bits that I question:

Firstly you introduce yourself, the horse is happy, so are you. Then suddenly the horse is sent away. The horse has no idea why this has happened, it has stood there quite quietly and all of a sudden the person has changed character from a nice man patting his head to a predator... How can the horse trust a person that (in his opinion) has such mood swings!

I must admit, this is the one bit that gets me and you put it into words that I couldn't quite get in my head.
I do the join up in a 3/4 acre paddock, it seems to work quite well, the only thing I would suggest with a menage is to put poles/jumps across the four corners to "round" them off a bit as I think the horse has a tendancy to get "stuck" in the corners, that is what I have been advised anyway :)
if Bex has done something suitably "naughty" I dont make him run but I do the "go away" body language untill he asks to come in? I dont actually notice how far we have gone,

[KateWooten]

I think the 'sending the horse away' initially is more akin to the situation where a new mare is introduced to the herd ... in a natural setting, this could happen for several reasons, though it's certainly a lot more common in a dmesticated situation. The dominant mare will go look at, sniff, introduce herself to the new mare, and then will run her off. She is establishing herself as boss hoss. The new mare either wants to join the new herd, or she doesn't. She could of course, just run off. But where Monty starts from is the premise that the new horse does indeed want to join the herd.

In the herd situation, the new horse is driven away a short distance, and the boss hoss is looking for her compliance. When Roberts is looking for one ear on him, lick and chew, he's looking for acceptance of the request to acknowledge the boss hoss. i've heard people describe the lick and chew as meaning 'I'm a simple herbivore, don't eat me' which seems to me ridiculous - I can't imagine a horse wanting to 'say' that to a lion ! To me it means 'ok, you're higher than me, let me in now'.... in a sense its closer to 'baby-talk' - the licking and showing of teeth that foals do to their superiors.

[Colorado Sunset]

I think the 'sending the horse away' initially is more akin to the situation where a new mare is introduced to the herd

Yes, but this doesnt happen in every situation, in fact I have never seen it happen when introducing a new horse to a herd. Sure I havnt had a great deal of experience, I will tell you whole-heartedly that now, however horses do often just seem to get along; a angry glance at the new horse when it oversteps the mark may be enough, not a agressive sending away.

Kate Wooten- I agree with everything your saying about the licking/chewing, I think it definately is a "look Im only a baby" gesture, as opposed to "Im eating grass, im not scared" that monty actually describes it as.

Jo

[KateWooten]

Yes, but this doesnt happen in every situation, in fact I have never seen it happen when introducing a new horse to a herd

I'd have to say I agree - I haven't either ! The closest I would come to it is introducing one gelding to my mare, when he already knew the mare before anyway ! They frolicked around together, but after a little while she was definitely in the 'driving' position. However, we've probably both only been involved in already domesticated horses, already used to being kept in a highly aritifical situation, already somewhat under the control of a human 'herd leader' ... and already used to being picked up and moved around to other herds at 'random'. Certainly, I have never had my own established herd with older matriarchs to really observe.

I used to read that 'equine ethology' project in New Zealand, I think it was called White Horse Farm - I know there were a number of problems with that study, but still it was neat to read his obsevations. Most of us probably never will get to really observe how a real herd works which is a pity.

[Bay Mare]

Yes, but this doesnt happen in every situation, in fact I have never seen it happen when introducing a new horse to a herd.


It's times like this that I wish that I'd got Saffs' introduction to the herd on video! It happened almost exactly like KateW said. Maybe it's because our herd is a larger, mixed herd? I don't know. Saff just kept on running, though, until they got bored with her and one by one drifted back to grazing. I guess that should have shown me the bossy boots that she was to come :rolleyes:

Thanks Kate and Sarah, some good points there :)

One point that I would like to make, though, is that though Monty does do Join Up in his demos this is not always what RAs will do when they come out to work with your horses. We are, in general, seeing the more troubled horses at his demos (haven't seen him start a baby so can't comment on that :) ). The RAs will do JU if it's necessary but will use other 'tools' as well.

[Colorado Sunset]

It's times like this that I wish that I'd got Saffs' introduction to the herd on video! It happened almost exactly like KateW said. Maybe it's because our herd is a larger, mixed herd? I don't know. Saff just kept on running, though, until they got bored with her and one by one drifted back to grazing.

Thats great :) I understand the method, Im not against it, Im just beginning to realise there may be other ways aswell, that can work alongside the MR way. Like you said, the RAs wont necessarily do join up straight away, however, as I have come to believe, in Monty's demos he does Join up with every horse he works with. I really need to watch the man work ;)

I like to pick and chose at different methods, so that I can work towards a consistency with horses, so that theres no contradictions for the horse which can cause confusion and a lack of trust.

Jo

[Catbaloo]

Just to say and no disrespect to any horsemen out there. We can all read other peoples experience and acheivements. Because that is what books are based upon. Some times, I think all horses are there own book. From them we can, watch, listen, and learn. Sometimes getting more from them, than from a book, maybe???? So trust yourself, after all, you want your horse to trust you and be able to trust your horse.

[Zingy]

Another reason for using 2 lines instead of 1 is that with a single line you can't do anything with direction without stopping the horse, farting about a bit and starting off again. With 2 lines you can constantly change direction as well as speed. This is why other trainers (like Richard Maxwell) who've sussed out that not everyone has a round pen ;) work on join up from long lines. The ultimate effects are very similar to round pen work but it wouldn't be with lunging as you have to have control of both speed and direction without stopping.

In terms of using a 20x40 school, a lot depends on the horse. Mine will mostly very nicely keep going, but if they're either lazy or not sure of what you're asking, it is difficult. 2 main problems - one is that the school is simply too big, so you've either got to be really fit to run backwards and forwards, or you can cheat and have a person at each end, so effectively you each control a 20m circle which is reasonable. Second problem is corners - they can get stuck in them and don't know which way to go! That can be solved by putting poles across the corners to guide them round. With training both can be overcome as they do figure out what is supposed to happen and hopefully do a lot of it voluntarily! But a smaller space is easier to start off with. I used to work in a 30x60 school when I first started loose schooling and ended up sending the horse one way then the other like a yo-yo. He would gallop up the long side, stand in the corner until I got there and then galloped back and stood in the corner again. It was something of a relief when he finally figured out he could go round in a circle and the aim wasn't to make me do lots of exercise :D

[KateWooten]

that with a single line you can't do anything with direction without stopping the horse, farting about a bit and starting off again

... respectfully disagree ! Try Clinton Anderson style 'lunging for respect stage 2' for developing beautiful soft, smooth and quick turn on the haunches.

[Bay Mare]

Thats great :) I understand the method, Im not against it, Im just beginning to realise there may be other ways aswell, that can work alongside the MR way. Like you said, the RAs wont necessarily do join up straight away, however, as I have come to believe, in Monty's demos he does Join up with every horse he works with. I really need to watch the man work ;)

I'm with you on that one, I'm not loyal to anyone, I'm an NH Tart :D I do like a lot of aspects of IH (actually prefer the Kelly Marks approach to the Monty approach) but also like some of Mark Rashids' philosophies and, more and more, am liking a lot of what Michael Peace says.

I think that it is when you slavishly stick to one method without questioning and without thinking is when problems occur. I can even see some good in the PNH games ;) Did I say that? Not me, someone must have hacked into my account :D Seriously, though, I don't follow anyone 100% and anyone who wants me to follow them without questioning and without considering other ways of doing things is too much like a cult for my liking and is going to turn me off big time. Well, apart from that cute guy that I saw in Starbucks the other day ...

[Zingy]

... respectfully disagree ! Try Clinton Anderson style 'lunging for respect stage 2' for developing beautiful soft, smooth and quick turn on the haunches.

I'll check that out! Never achived it lunging, though they do it happily loose schooled. 2 reins I find far easier.

[FRED]

Two things worth considering, if you can get hold of the video,Whispering The Wild, Kelly Marks {I think its brilliant }to see her approach.

The second thing,its good to be able to watch established herds of horses,be they domesticated or not.They don't exaggerate the truth{for want of a better way of putting things}

[Yann]

I'm an NH Tart

To a degree that's what IH is all about anyway:D Though there are certain ways of doing various things they're not set in stone, what it seems to boil down to for me is that it's more of an approach and a mindset. Mark Rashid has a huge following in IH circles for obvious reasons since the Kelly / RA style is very similar in many respects. If you haven't read it then Tom Widdecombe's book 'Be With Your Horse' is recommended reading on the subject, he comes across not unlike an english version of Mark Rashid, which judging from the cover may not be entirely accidental :) I suspect a Tom Widdecombe demo would be a rather different experience to a Monty one too :D

On the subject of join up and sending away, one thing I've definitely picked up watching a few demos now is the different levels of sending off that horses get. The energy used appears to be carefully judged so that it's enough and no more. For instance Bex appeared to be sent away far more gently than the little Welshie, and with good reason.
The other thing I've noticed is the relative difference in the strength of the join ups. At the first demo I watched they all joined up strongly bar one, which needed it's headcollar tweaking to encourage it to follow up. At Melton nearly all of them did, though interestingly the little Welshie seemed to join up the most strongly.
In a training situation a horse will normally undergo several joinups, but once things are established that's normally it.

[Roseanne]

I went to see my fourth demo of Monty Roberts yesterday, and I also prefer Kelly's way of doing things, as I think Monty is a little bit too severe with the Dooley Collar and his constant repetition theory is a little overworked. I still think he's a master of loading however, and I like his calm approach around the horses.

Kelly is pretty good at loading herself and I found his comment about "if a little English girl from Lambourne (?) can do this" etc, somewhat patronising, and he must have said it at least three times. He also referred to her as his "student" and I think she has been doing her work for long enough now to be an expert in her own right. But maybe that's the rebel in me. I hate it when men patronise us, with apologies to the lovely males on this Board, who I'm sure wouldn't dream of doing so. :)

Anyway, I thoroughly enjoyed the demo, as did a couple of friends who joined us for the first time.

One other comment about single lungeing-I single lungue with a head collar when I just want to get rid of her excessive energy as at the moment. Little turnout, and no exercise (riding).-Long -reining is excellent for training, and I like the way Monty and Kelly do it, rather than the English way, which is too close, and behind, rather than from the side.

I dont agree that single lungeing is harmful if the line is attached under the chin, and my mare doesnt turn her head out, and to be honest, she is more co-operative and better controlled at the moment this way. Later, I will introduce long-reining again, when she's listening and less spooky.

Sorry Monty.

Roseanne :)

[Roseanne]

Juist a quick follow-on from previous posting-I also don't use a whip normally for lungeing, just the rope and my arm. She doesn't like the whip, and if she is doing what I want without it, I don't see the point of using it. I agree wholeheartedly with Monty that whips can be detrimental, although I'm not against their use if needed. Just my opinion :)

Roseanne :)

[Yann]

I hate it when men patronise us, with apologies to the lovely males on this Board, who I'm sure wouldn't dream of doing so.

Absolutely not!!!:eek: No real excuse but I suppose Monty is from another generation and culture where such language and attitudes were more acceptable. I wouldn't doubt his respect for Kelly's ability though. Kelly is pretty good at loading and everything else to boot, she's toured in her own right before and will undoubtedly do so again in the future, something I personally look forward to seeing :)

Interestingly I saw some 'IH' single line lunging today, it was big on use of body language, the handler was more mobile and the horse worked the majority of the time with a sag in the line, more like long lining with a single line. Might give it a try :D

[Skib]

I was still unwell last Thursday so didnt go to see Monty Roberts at Guildford.

But Roseanne, want to say how much I agreed with you. Not only were his remarks about Kelly Marks patronising at the demo i went to but they create the wrong impression. He was saying that any horse owner in the audience could use his methods because (wow) this uneducated girl Kelly had done so. Whereas kelly Marks has a long background in horsemanship, years before she became involved with Monty Roberts.

Although i was ill a whole party of staff went from the riding school near me. Really nice people. So it has got me down to hear that they learned nothing. I was warned ahead of time that they disliked Monty Roberts and preferred Maxwell - ignoring the similarities between those two particular trainers. The senior BHS instructor commented that she learned nothing she had not learned via the BHS years ago.

I can understand people going to watch Roberts and disliking some of his views or some of his showmanship - what depresses me is that the staff from whom I am expected to learn, dont themselves have open minds to absorb new information, or even recognise fresh thinking.

I would say that the concept of sending the "problem" or unbacked horse away in a round pen and permitting the horse to join up, only when the horse is prepared to submit, is a hall mark of Roberts' work - as is his invention and use of the Dually halter to help less experienced people control their horses. People on this board know I have learned much of my riding from viewing Mark Rashid and that I admire Michael Peace as well. So I am not a Monty follower. But at least I expected anyone working with horses to be able to discuss Roberts' application of Behaviourism, to be able to suggest its advantages and limitations and the circumstances in which it might add to our understanding of horses.

Sorry, rant over. Thank goodness for NR board.

[raingodz]

I agree that Monty's introduction to Kelly was a bit off to say the least, I would be very interested to see her do a demo in her own right, I felt that, although she has a great respect for Monty Roberts, this was very much Monty's show so I thought she seemed a little subdued.

Thanks to all your answers so far, I have just one more small question....

If your horse will do join-up with out being sent away first, should you still send them away?

[cvb]

Raingodz

There is a difference between working in a round pen (or at liberty) and "Join Up".

You can work in a round pen, and direct the horse, and have them stay in partnership with you from the very first. "sending them away" then is just a direction of movement, not a physical exclusion thing.

But what do you mean by "your horse will do join-up without being sent away first" ? some of the thigns you might do to check your communication might involve seeing what their "send" is like...(and their "draw" (back to you)).

[Yann]

Skib, sorry you didn't make it in the end. Like you I wouldn't see that there is a huge difference between Richard Maxwell and Monty, but if people go to watch something with closed minds nothing new is likely to enter them. It's a pity that they (and you!) couldn't have joined me at the clinic I went to yesterday given by a local RA where horses with various issues were worked with. There was no joinup, minimum pressure and a great deal of sympathetic handling, with a positive outcome every time, hopefully it would have given them food for thought.

as is his invention and use of the Dually halter to help less experienced people control their horses.

Ideally that should be 'to train their horses' :)

If your horse will do join-up with out being sent away first, should you still send them away?

I would say not - join up is a tool to establish a relationship, or to correct one that has gone wrong by establishing or re establishing control of the horse's feet. You can get the same result without using join up by doing groundwork for example, though it might take longer. Rio will follow me loose round the school for example, I'd personally feel that taking her in a round pen and doing a join up with her wouldn't be fair.

[Yann]

I would say that the concept of sending the "problem" or unbacked horse away in a round pen and permitting the horse to join up, only when the horse is prepared to submit, is a hall mark of Roberts' work

The thing is from what I've witnessed myself and also heard described is that if the horse doesn't show any of the usual signs of wanting to join up Monty R rapidly goes off script and moves its feet by other means instead. What he doesn't appear to do is to keep horses going for hours until they're too tired and give in (contrary to popular opinion in some quarters ;)).

[raingodz]

But what do you mean by "Will your horse will do join-up without being sent away first" ? some of the things you might do to check your communication might involve seeing what their "send" is like...(and their "draw" (back to you)).
At the demo I went to Monty sent each horse away before doing join-up, I was just wondering if sending away and join-up were an inseparable process or not. *thinks - must read more books*

[Tots N Dots]

I like Monty Roberts, I have to say he was my first introduction to NH other that what I had thought of myself, it doesn't mean that I agree with everything he does,
I adore Ben Afleck but I dont enjoy all the films he is in,
I think alot has to do with personality to, there were subjects at school, (the many years ago it was ;) ) that I liked or disliked, but if I liked my teacher I did well in the subjects, someone can be a brilliant riding instructor, but if on a personal level I dont "get on" with them I dont do well with learning, Monty Roberts is from a different generation and background to a lot of us on this board, I must admit he was different in the flesh to what I had expected after reading a few of his books,
I work with quite a few children that have special needs, I find I work a certain way with them, when they come to me in the beginning there is no room for error, every rule in our house is black and white, that is it, as "harsh" as that may be, after a while I can "soften" and things dont have to be so clear cut, often special needs children are directed by body language, how I stand, my facial expression, they are often much more un nerved by a new setting than non special needs children, I have been praised by parents for how these children are cared for and am proud of the results I have, I often have children here that other "standard" care givers will make excuses not to take, I never (so far :o ) have any major problems. In a way I think this is how Monty works with his join-up, he is stating in no uncertain terms that he is leadership material and the horse will wait a while and say "ok I see you have what it takes" I think I am good with special needs children because I am stubborn and bl**dy minded and speak my mind (too much sometimes), but then I have yet to meet a child that weighs in at half a ton as horses do, so naturally I am a bit more reserved with horses and the horse senses this, I never turn to any child here and say "oh if its not too much trouble could you come and sit at the table pretty please with a cherry on top" on the first day they are here, I may well get told where to go, and i would have problems from their on in, however after a week of the black and white stuff I would get a very different response, I can walk into a shop with 6 children under 8 years old, some special needs, some not, and ask them to wait while i speak to someone, and they will, and I can honestly say I have never used force on any of them. :D I do hope after all this post that people are able to get the point I was trying to make in the first place, I just didn't know how else to explain what I was thinking :D

[Mehitabel]

The senior BHS instructor commented that she learned nothing she had not learned via the BHS years ago.

I can understand people going to watch Roberts and disliking some of his views or some of his showmanship - what depresses me is that the staff from whom I am expected to learn, dont themselves have open minds to absorb new information, or even recognise fresh thinking.

I would say that the concept of sending the "problem" or unbacked horse away in a round pen and permitting the horse to join up, only when the horse is prepared to submit, is a hall mark of Roberts' work - as is his invention and use of the Dually halter to help less experienced people control their horses.



perhaps it isn't particularly fresh thinking as far as they are concerned? knotted halters to apply pressure in certain places, sending away (although not necessarily in a round pen) and everything i've heard about MR are not new at all - my YO taught me to send a stroppy pony away from me in a stable or a field and not let it come back until it apologised when i was about 12 and having trouble with my dominant gelding.

[cvb]

At the demo I went to Monty sent each horse away before doing join-up, I was just wondering if sending away and join-up were an inseparable process or not. *thinks - must read more books*

remember that Monty is already aware of the context he is working in with these horses. They are assessed before hand to work out which ones to use. (NOT suggesting he works with them beforehand).

Whereas if we walk in to a new horse, we can't assume it is a "problem" (or has a problem...) so our starting point is different. We would need to assess the horse and our relationship with it before we assumed a join-up exercise was required (IMHO).

I also wouldn't want to assume I could do join-up with a particular horse :o One of ours gets quite worried when loose schooled - I don't think I would attempt join-up in a round pen with him without a very experienced person around to support me - it could get dangerous for me and the pony :( (because of how anxious he gets). I just don't feel he needs to do a join-up in that way. He's 18, never been a problem, just is a bit of a wimp at times.

[FRED]

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What he doesn't appear to do is to keep horses going for hours until they're too tired and give in (contrary to popular opinion in some quarters ).

less than 8 minutes,usually.With a very 'troubled horse' it can be more, I would preffer a gentler approach:)

And indeed the horse will not come back;), something else that indicates some one is not uderstanding, what there doing.But I will never knock there honesty.

From what I see, he is working with a horses instinct and body language, all be the horse cant litterally be pushed outside the comfertable boundry of a herd{where no horse ever wants to be}the horse is in flight. I doubt a mare would spend anything like 8 minutes to push a herd member out, it would very be swift;) indeed, horses don't like to waste energy.

So its not quite all natural.But indeed works.
Horses still buck when sadled even after 'join - up',the cat on his back theory.
Here we see the Dually being used,and sometimes, we don't always like what we see, be effective as it is.

Just want to add,if you really have a hawk eye,watch his RIGHT hand, where he often places it on the horse,that is.
Edited,i do mean his right hand,not left as originaly posted.

[FRED]

Quote:
Whereas if we walk in to a new horse, we can't assume it is a "problem" (or has a problem...) so our starting point is different. We would need to assess the horse and our relationship with it before we assumed a join-up exercise was required (IMHO).

:) even if the horse has been classed as a problem horse,the above is where I would always wish to start.

[raingodz]

I suppose it is understanding the how and the why of these techniques, one might be able to send a horse away and perform join up (the how) but then there is the question of why we would want to do this. I do not have a horse of my own to work with (sadly I don't think my RS would be too willing to let me work with any of there horses in this way.

So at the moment I was just trying to detangle the how part and under stand some of the techniques I saw in the demo. But I do understand that each horse is different and so will have different needs and different things that need working on.

[Tots N Dots]

I do not have a horse of my own to work with (sadly I don't think my RS would be too willing to let me work with any of there horses in this way.
you could always ask them? you may be surprised,
or is there any liveries there whos owners are interested in NH and would let you watch them?
I think the clinic yesterday would have been very interesting for you, it answered a lot of my questions, More so than the Brooksby Demo, and gave me lots of ideas of what to do next. :D

[FRED]

When we see Monty working with the un backed horse, he achieves join up by using the horses instinct and his instinct of flight {and by using his knowledge of the lead mare sending a horse out of their comfort zone away from herd{where no horse can be comfortable},he knows the signals/body language of the horse when seeking to be back in with the herd}Monty looks for the horse to seek permission to come in,watch the horses ears.When working with a horse this is pretty much universal,this ear position,when the horse has interest in you {TBs are pretty quick to join up it seems, from what I have seen} the next step, going onto the long reins, here he works from walk,trot and canter and changing direction.Often overlooked by his critics.
He is a master with long reins, I think from join up, the horse responds very well to this next step.Never seen a horse have a real problem here, although you do see the odd kick out at the reins and reins crossed,to be expected,Remarkable to watch Monty and long rein work.

Body language can seem a clumsy word around horses and not easily obvious{apart from pin backed ears and kicks/bite}, this is why so many trainers suggest we take the time out to watch herds.
Some people seem far more in sink with animals than people, with the right help/teachers, things do become a lot clearer,we have to start from somwhere,says my trainer :) . Lunging can be made difficult just by our stance and body angle in the school,in particular with a younger horse.


Sadly riding schools don't always have the time for teaching these important aspects of being with horses and many of us don't have the time for college courses.As hot a subject here as it is,why I like the Parelli 7 games.
You can see people achieve 'join -up' from a light lunging session and then work on movement and direction without a halter or rope:)

[msp]

Some comments:-

1) I am pretty sure that Monty and Kelly say that "join up" (as in the whole drive away and invite back) is typically only done a small number of times, unless the relationship has broken down for some reason.

Of course in Monty's demos he knows there is an issue with horse/handler trust/respect, so tends to start off pretty forceful and black/white.

Personally I am impressed with his work, but find his tales and showmanship rather off putting - I try to shut that out and watch what he is doing, rather than what he is saying. At least it is not as bad as Parelli (commenting on Parelli's showmanship and "hard sell", not his abilty or techniques).

If you would like a harsher approach check out Richard Maxwell. Pretty much Monty with a more severe pressure halter.

Personally I prefer Michael Peace because in his demos I always got the impression that he would take however long it took to get the job done, and do it without resorting to a pressure halter (which is what Richard and Monty use).

I don't think Monty miss-uses his pressure halter, but I often worry about what the owner will do the next day...

2) Single line lunging. I think it is important to remember that Monty's background is western and racing. I strongly suspect that in that background single line lunging is spining the horse in circles with its head pulled to the inside just to work off some energy.

Dressage lunging, if done by someone who is good, is very different - Concentrating on keeping the horse "straight on the circle" and working over its back to strengthen the muscles required to carry the rider easily. Not 100% natural, but then neither is carrying a rider! :)

I have also seen an expert show jumper doing an impressive job of (single line) lunging the horse over jumps, in this case moving all over the arena with the horse "straight" at all times.

3) My biggest concern with all these demos is how much the owner is trained. Often, particularly for loading, they are the cause of the problem, and I am unsure how much training they get to improve their towing/driving.

I have the same concern with the pressure halters, a useful tool in the right hands, but potentially an instrument of torture in the wrong.

At least once I have seen a horse tied up to the back of a trailer with a pressure halter (and they had tied it so it was working as a pressure halter).

Michael Peace says he can tell if one has been used/missused on a horse by the shape/state of its nose....

[Tots N Dots]

I don't think Monty miss-uses his pressure halter, but I often worry about what the owner will do the next day...
Buy the halter ;) :D

[Roseanne]

MSP and Tots n Dots-At the demo I saw recently Monty did, in my humble opinion, misuse the Dualy Halter. There were a number of times when the horse he was handling did what he wanted and he carried on jerking the halter-? ! One of the friends we were with, who is an experienced horse woman and a Natural Horsemanship follower I have to add, also felt this. The "showmanship" aspect of Monty's demos is something I have heard quite a number of people criticise, and not from non-horsey people, but from open minded riders like myself.

I really do hate to be critical of such a well-known and respected horse handler as Monty, but he is not above criticism, surely, and I repeat, I do enjoy the demos, but don't agree with some of his methods and opinions.

Incidentally, I have had a Dualy for two years now and although I use it from time to time, successfully, I would never, use it in the way Monty does to "control" my horse's behaviour, that is, jerking it over and over, when my horse has already accepted my "remonstration" for want of a better word. That is really my main objection, and I am sorry if this might have offended anyone, but there it is.

Roseanne :)

[Crystal Fire]

I know what you mean Roseanne. Interesting that the man who invented the Dually could be thought to be using it wrongly though isn't it?

[Yann]

Roseanne, I share your reservations, and I find it at odds with the training without violence message. Perhaps I'm missing something too, but I took some friends from my yard to a recent demo and that was one thing they picked up on straight away.

I think some of the things we see at the demos are a result of the demo format itself which will tend to compromise the way some horses are worked with to a degree. It is entertainment as well as education, on a budget timewise, and to be fair I've heard it pointed out on several occasions that the work being done at the demo is only ever the beginning. The worst cases often end up going to stay at one of the RA's yards for further work. What we see at the demos is often quite a way removed from the way the same problem would be dealt with at home by an RA, I think it's fair to say that it could have a lot more in common with Mike Peace's style then.

On the other hand demos can and do show people that there might be a different way to relate to their horses, in that sense they're undoubtedly a good thing despite the compromises IMHO.

[raingodz]

I think some of the things we see at the demos are a result of the demo format itself which will tend to compromise the way some horses are worked with to a degree.
I would have been happier on this point if Monty had said something along the lines of "To solve this problem properly you'll need to work at it for X number of months" or something like that.

At the demo it is showmanship as well as NH, and I'm sure to some it seems like magic tricks, and they might miss the point that continued work is needed - especialy with regards to backing horses for the first time inless than 30 mins.

[Yann]

To my mind there's nothing untoward about that particular aspect, he does win the trust of the horse and it normally allows itself to be calmly saddled and ridden, in fact he possibly makes it look too easy:) I don't think anyone would go away thinking the result was anything other than face value suggests, the horse is still going to need to learn the aids and how to balance itself with a rider on from that point.

To be fair I have heard him make the point about continued work being required, but he obviously doesn't do it at every demo. And I do think, despite the constraints of the demo format, that some of the stuff I've seen him do has been nothing short of marvellous, lets not underestimate just how skilled he is in all this. I'm sure Fred would agree with me that the work he did with one very troubled horse at the Rodbaston demo last autumn was a good example, he stayed completely calm with a horse that wouldn't follow the script at all and despite some real difficulties still got a result. The point about continued work and it just being a beginning was certainly made then :)

[Tots N Dots]

MSP and Tots n Dots-At the demo I saw recently Monty did, in my humble opinion, misuse the Dualy Halter.......
I really do hate to be critical of such a well-known and respected horse handler as Monty, but he is not above criticism, surely, and I repeat, I do enjoy the demos, but don't agree with some of his methods and opinions.


my comment "buy the halter" was towards the marketing aspect :D

I do have to agree with you on the above respect, at a recent demo I attended, I was quite happily watching Kelly Marks on a "loading issue" horse, out of the corner of my eye I began to watch Monty with his "loading issue" horse, she was stood to one side but in my mind was just stood there, he was repeatedly jerking the halter, for what appeared to be no reason? I honestly dont know if she had done something just before I looked over? I did buy the halter, mainly as I have to lead my youngster on the road and he hasn't been bitted, so need something just a little more than a head collar, I had heard a few things I wasn't happy about before we took Bex to the demo, i admit to having my horse watched like a hawk while we were there, I was pleased to say I saw nothing untoward "behind the scenes", but I do think that the time constraints of the demo make life difficult, as there has to be the showmanship side too, but I was never under any impression that further work wasn't needed?

[raingodz]

Sorry Yann, I think I didn't quite word my reply as well as I might have (never was any good at english). I am not trying to detract from what he can do, more trying to formulate the point that I guess the majority of us in the audience would lack the ability to perform these feats to with in the same constraints (time and environment) as Monty has to at a demo and that working with a horse in this way is more of a long term project rather than just a 30min quick fix.

I was quite happily watching Kelly Marks on a "loading issue" horse, out of the corner of my eye I began to watch Monty with his "loading issue" horse, she was stood to one side but in my mind was just stood there, he was repeatedly jerking the halter, for what appeared to be no reason?
I was sat at the other end of the arena from you, so Monty was inbetween me and Kelly's loading demo. During the time that Kelly was working at the horse box Monty was contiualy working with his horse, mainly getting it to back up or to stand, the movements he was making it do were quite subtle but he was quite firm when the horse performed them incorrectly which is why when it came to his turn at demoing the loading problem, there was no problem. I wish now I had paid a little more attention to what he was doing during Kellys demo.

[Yann]

No sorry required Rich, your impressions and opinions are as valid as anyone elses particularly as you'd not seen him before - I wasn't countering what you'd written, just offering my own thoughts :)

[raingodz]

I think I need to see him again, so I can look beyond what he does more into how and why he does it, I was astounded at how effective and efficient he was at building a relationship with a horse, but now I just want to dig a little deeper into what I can take and apply from this at the point I end up getting a horse.

The small, almost throw away comments, he made through out the demo were interesting, like when one of the horses tried to bite him and he said something about not feeding it by hand would help. Or the comment about problems of single line lunging - yet these comments were a little frustrating in their fleeting existence.

[FRED]

Indeed he did Yann, "horses don't read books" said Monty , I can't ever remember a demo where he hasn't reminded us at some point, this is just the beginning or said, lots more time will be needed.{not necessarily just 'join-up' as I understand}
In fact he also suggests, study as much as you can,ask as many questions as you can and go enrol onto as many horsemanship courses as you can, you never stop learning.Never a hint of sarcasm about Classical or any of today's modern trainers.

{This bit is just my own opinion having watched a number of demos,} personally I have come to the conclusion, often Monty doesn't need a pressure halter at all,but I understand why people do.

Something else I have noticed, the only system he truly hates,was that of his fathers followed by the gross use of a whip in racing,that doesn't happen,but does regardless of what stewards see..OOPS.

I don't mind his talks about other areas of his life and work with young people{having many years ago helped my own family through the most traumatic times without parents, believe me there are very few who really care,I don't have a problem with people who get switched off, it may even seem depressing even, life shouldn't be like this I agree }

all said , Im not going to be doing 'join-up' with D because we don't need to, we will join up at times and I really like Monty amongst others.
I would watch him again and again, after initialy having doubts too.

there's kate :) ,kelly and the guy who's dearest wish is, to take the Natural out of erm....;) but thats another thread, lots of options and ideas,but join up is in there where ever you go.

[Tots N Dots]

I got to the stage that I was listening so much to Monty that I didn't watch half of what he was doing, my fault I know but I got so wrapped up in what he was saying, I dont know if it is to do with the language training I have had but I have to look at someones face when I am listening to them, I will go to see him again, but once I know the horse in questions problem I will put ear plugs in and just watch, :D

[msp]

As raingodz picked up on, I think one of the key things is to watch what Monty is doing rather than getting side tracked by the tale he is telling - Particularly for the loading, you need to be aware that he pretty much 99% solves the problem BEFORE he goes anywhere near the lorry, often whilst the spot light is on someone else!

[horsey_woman]

I agree. A lady I knew online took her "problem horse" to a MR demo... after Monty's assistants worked the horse in a round pen for a while they told her her horse was unsuitable and sent her and her horse home!!

That's when I lost faith.

[jinglejoys]

"I agree. A lady I knew online took her "problem horse" to a MR demo... after Monty's assistants worked the horse in a round pen for a while they told her her horse was unsuitable and sent her and her horse home!!

That's when I lost faith."
horsey_woman I've been in that position but you have to remember that Monty only has so much time to work on an animal so he can't take an animal for a demo that will take several hours. My boy Malaga just freaked out-I reckon he thought he was in a sale pen and Mules are fight not flight so join up has to be done very carefuylly especially by strangers as it takes a while for them to trust a stranger.
There was no way Monty could or should have picked him because he needed pleanty of time--looking back on it I should never have put him foreward but he is so good with me that I was shocked by his behavior which began as soon as he got to the venue!
I do agree that if your animal isn't chosen you do tend to be left without back up which is\ probably something that should be bourne in mind by the orginizers but mule owners get used to that!:D

[Yann]

There are normally more horses brought to a demo than are actually used, and the owners are well aware of this when they bring them. And as Jinglejoys suggests they will pick the ones to work with that look likely to provide the most interesting and (yes...) entertaining demo in the time slot available. That doesn't necessarily mean ones that are going to be easy to sort because I've seen several which could never fit that description.
You do hope that the owners whose horses don't get selected are given the contact details of their local RA, to be honest this is where issues are really going to be dealt with for the long term:)

[Bay Mare]

I would have been happier on this point if Monty had said something along the lines of "To solve this problem properly you'll need to work at it for X number of months" or something like that.


At the demo that I went to he did stress that point, several times. It's one of the things that impressed me. We hear so much about Monty Roberts 'training' a horse in 30 minutes that people who don't look into it more closely believe the hype. It was one of the things at our demo that he made a point of correcting. It's rather like Join Up, it's not something that is used or needs to be used on every horse.

BTW I'm trying to organise an RA to come to our yard for some groundwork (I don't think that we've got any 'problem' horses to be seen this time now mine is behaving herself ;) ). You're more than welcome to come along and watch if you like. If we do any long reining I'm more than happy to let you have a go with Saff (she likes long reining :) ).

[jinglejoys]

Yep,I've sorted out John Jones to take Malaga to Boarding school because although he's never worked a mule I think he's prepared to "speak mule" to Malaga not shout "horse" at him;)
Also with Malaga being a "boarder" he's out of my influence for a while and will bond better,(as I said mules tend to be one owner animals)although it will be hard for me to pack him off to school with his little saddlebag and apple for the teacher:D

[FRED]

:)
Quote:We hear so much about Monty Roberts 'training' a horse in 30 minutes that people who don't look into it more closely believe the hype. It was one of the things at our demo that he made a point of correcting. It's rather like Join Up, it's not something that is used or needs to be used on every horse.

Thats exactly what I have noticed too.At the 1st demo I attended there were people dissapointed that his assistant rider didn't sit on a very dangerous horse:eek: Even though Monty had made it very clear it would be foolish and dangerous and stated that the horse needed lots of good work over time.This was just the start.

I have heard people say,well he didn't break that one did he,or he dosen't take the wild horse of the hill,yes thank goodness its not about breaking horses.:)

[jinglejoys]

Well said Fred!:)

[trina]

Hi Guys

Just adding my tuppence worth:

At the demo i went to see Monty backed a youngster for the first time. Every thing was done quietly - the dually was used but with little force. Once the horse had been backed and ridden Monty allowed the horse to relax whilst he continued talking to the audience. He then asked for a single hand clap to show that there was no trickery in what we had just seen - and obviously the youngster spooked - straight back to Monty where it felt safe.

On the other hand there was a horse that had a serious problem with letting anyone get on it. It had got so bad that the horse came into the arena late because they had trouble getting a saddle on it. Monty acheived join up then asked for the horse to stand whilst he moved a bag around on a stick. Of course the horse moved - and the dually was put into use. I admit that it was harsher than i expected but i can see what Monty was doing. He was creating rules for an out of control horse (he actually commented 'how long has this horse been controlling people'). You stand still the bag on the stick doesn't harm you and it goes away, you move and there are consequences. This horse had become so terrified of everything and lacked any self control that it needed to be shown that there was nothing to fear. The only quick and easy way to do this is to have black and white rules. Sometimes being all gentle and easy going with a horse just prolongs a problem that could be nipped in the bud and lead to a happier horse quicker if an effective system like Monty's is put into use. (However each horse is an individual and i understand needs treating as such)

Last quick note. There was discussion about why Monty makes friends with a horse then aggressively sends it away to begin the join-up process. My understanding was that the horse is allowed its freedom in the ring and as soon as it makes its decision to move away from Monty it effectively gets told 'that's O.K to move away from me but don't move away a little.....move away A LOT'

Hope this helps
Sorry its long:o

Trina