looking for informations

[horseback]

Hi,
Please don't get me wrong !!!!
I know that my request is extremly hazardous.... so please don't get me wrong ....my attention is not to start a war about diffient opinions....

So here I go...:
I 'm working on a study about Pop.Natural Horse Man Ship Trainers, like Monty Roberts, Pat Parelli and so on,....and their methods...
I do have already a lot of positve informations, what I realy need by now are the negatve sides....not the commercial ones that are already well known, I do need facts about negative impacts (abuses....?!) on the horse caused by the different Trainers or their methods.
Concerning this I do have already some stuff concerning Monty Roberts and Klaus Ferdinand Hempfling....I realy need ( if they are....?!) some informations ( negative ones ) concerning Pat Parelli and his PNH program...

So if anybody can help me out with this kind of informations I will be very thankfull !
I will keep all the Informator confidential of course !
So, if anyone can help me he may contact me directly via mail : pour_le_cheval@yahoo.fr

Thank you very much in advance and hopre to hear from you !
With best regards

[Bay Mare]

Are you talking about documented cases or are you looking for personal opinions?

What is the study for? I'm happy to help and put my opinions but it depends on what it's being used for. Are the negative opinions on Monty and Klaus your opinions or opinions that you have gathered from other people?

Are you talking specifically about Monty, Pat Parelli, Mark Rashid etc or about the way that the methods are interpreted by the masses? The problem if you're not being specific is that someone following, for example, Monty's way of doing things may not be doing them in the way that Monty does them if that makes any sense.

As I said, I'm happy to give my opinion but I want more info first please.

[horseback]

Are you talking about documented cases or are you looking for personal opinions? .....Both...

What is the study for? As living in France, I do write my study about what is natural in the natural horsemanship movement and this means to show of the sunny side of it aswell the darkside...I'm happy to help and put my opinions but it depends on what it's being used for. Are the negative opinions on Monty and Klaus your opinions or opinions that you have gathered from other people? [....B]I do have already + & - negative facts and opinions about Roberts and Hempfling and I do ask my self concerning the mostknown of all...P.Parelli, if there is aslo shadow by so much light... well there is ,for this moment very few shadow that I do have collect and I ask myself if is there more...[/B]...
Are you talking specifically about Monty, Pat Parelli, Mark Rashid etc ....more this than the people, I guess that they maybe didn't have it realy understand if things goes wrong and I don't blame them for that...nobody's perfect...even not the masters...that's what I look for .......or about the way that the methods are interpreted by the masses? The problem if you're not being specific is that someone following, for example, Monty's way of doing things may not be doing them in the way that Monty does them if that makes any sense.

As I said, I'm happy to give my opinion but I want more info first please.

So I hope it brings more light on my request....

[Bay Mare]

Thank you, yes. I won't be online now until Monday evening but will let you have my thoughts on things :D

[LodgeRopes]

I think the main negative for any horse training method is misuse or misinterpretation of it.
Alot of people who criticise a particular method do so because they often dont understand it. I think the biggest critics of parelli for example are people who have either never dont it, or have been taught be someone who really wasnt qualified to teach them, or the method didnt suit them or their horses for some reason. The same could be said of Monty Roberts and many others. Most people I have talked to that have actually done Parelli and given it more than a cursory look ( for example didnt just read the book or watch the video's) have either gone on with it or they are happy with the amount of knowledge they have gained and dont want to go further for many different reasons.

There are some methods that have negatives in my opinion but thats only my opinion. It may not be an actual negative for the horse or trainer.

I would hope that if you are doing a study you will focus on experts opinions rather than armchair experts who are merely spouting their opinion rather than hard cold facts :)

Anecdotes are often very misleading unless you actually witness the event, and even then personal biases can come into play.

[Yann]

If you do a search on here there are one or two threads where people related problems they'd experienced when trying PNH.

The difficulty with finding negative experiences of any trainer's stuff is that those negative experiences can happen for so many reasons, not all of them to do with the trainer's method itself.

[LodgeRopes]

The difficulty with finding negative experiences of any trainer's stuff is that those negative experiences can happen for so many reasons, not all of them to do with the trainer's method itself.

Exactly Yann!!! :)

[horseback]

Well, I'm looking not for "armchair" or secondhand opinions... I'm looking for firsthand experiences ( like somme in the old post "Who needs Parelli") one one hand on the other hand sure I will be glad too have experts view of the work - method and statemants of the weel known trainers and it's negative impact on the horse.....Especially since Parelli has become official here in France he is full of glory and nearly everybody is blinded by the light.....one will nearly see him to be able to walk on water.....So by soooo much of light there is surley some kind of shadow aswell .....I do know already of a case of a horse died of nervous colic in switzerland 2 hours after a trailer loading demonstration by Mr Parelli himself..... so.....I'm sure that there is some stuff like this.....I don't want to discredit the known trainers , I just look for facts....nobody is perfect and free of failure....even not the Pop star like trainers or they Instructors.....
So any help will be welcome that will help me to set the things into the right light..... more and more scientists here in France are more and more against some of this stuff done and told by some of these trainers.....I do look for facts.....nothing against a certain method bout I do ask myself if it's all gold that shines so bright ?!!!!

[ambatt]

I only know a little bit about the various forms of Natural Horsemanship (which is a bit of an engendered term, but hey!) but I do know more about equine psychology and behaviour.

Equine psychology and behaviour is a scientific discipline, acceptable in modern academia with measurable and quantifiable results.

Therefore, to critically appraise Natural Horsemanship methods and the way in which they manipulate the horse's natural behaviours to reach the desired outcome; I would say go away and read as much as you can on animal behaviourism and a a bit on equine evolution too.

Then you have a good basic knowledge and understanding based on scientific rationale to use as a baseline meaure to deconstruct the theories of Parelli, Roberts et al.

This book is a good introductory reader:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0632048786/qid=1140970174/sr=1-2/ref=sr_1_0_2/203-2929048-4652752

and this is very easy to read:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0753801124/qid=1140970281/sr=1-7/ref=sr_1_3_7/203-2929048-4652752

[horseback]

Thank you very much.....I do indeed read a lot about animal and horse behaviour.....as a future scientist in animalbehaviour I know that they are "some things" mentionend by the so called "natural horseman's" are far away from real live.....what I look for....are testmonials concerning the negative impact on the horse.....like the one that I have mentioned in my previous post concerning the horse in switzerland that have died by colic after a trailerloading session done by Pat Parelli himself.....I've seen a video recording of this session and it was far away from a stressless and resistance free loading demonstration.....there was a huge gap between what Parelli was saying and what he was actually doing......a lot of people present at this demo was finding the endresult (the horse was nearly jumping into the trailer) a kind of "oh great!" moment.....but unfortunaly they was not putting in question that the horse was soaked in sweat and clearly afraid about the man and his actions toward him......on the other hand I have seen by my own, a session (here in France) by Klaus Ferdinand Hempfling done with a 2 year old filly that was turning into a real nightmare.....an the only commentary from Hempfling was: "well, this can happend".... Sure, it can...but I'm not sure if it doe's do by a so called professionel....
So, hope you have know some ideas for what I'm looking for....?!

[ambatt]

Ah -I can see exactly where you are directing your research.

Have you thought about approaching the trainers directly? If they are as open minded and non-judgemental as they suggest then they should be co-operative and freely share their information and failures along with their successes. Most of the trainers have websites and there are very many other acolytes and assistants who follow the methods of the high profile NH people like Monty Roberts, Pat Parelli et al.

I think you will need the co-operation of the trainers otherwise you run the risk of relying on anecdotal evidence. Have you thought about advertising in the equestrian press for information, although to do this tactfully and not imply any criticism will be difficult.

[Yann]

I've seen a video recording of this session and it was far away from a stressless and resistance free loading demonstration.....there was a huge gap between what Parelli was saying and what he was actually doing......a lot of people present at this demo was finding the endresult (the horse was nearly jumping into the trailer) a kind of "oh great!" moment.....but unfortunaly they was not putting in question that the horse was soaked in sweat and clearly afraid about the man and his actions toward him......

How appalling, and exactly the reason I have reservations about aspects of his 'system'. I would feel the same about this happening with any trainer, whoever they were.

[horseback]

Ah -I can see exactly where you are directing your research.

Have you thought about approaching the trainers directly?
Oh yes.....already 6 month ago and guess what ?....No answer at all.....!
If they are as open minded and non-judgemental as they suggest then they should be co-operative and freely share their information and failures along with their successes. Most of the trainers have websites and there are very many other acolytes and assistants who follow the methods of the high profile NH people like Monty Roberts, Pat Parelli et al.

I think you will need the co-operation of the trainers otherwise you run the risk of relying on anecdotal evidence.
Well since the trainers prefer not to answer.....to busy with their bussiness, I guess or everything is fine....? I think that I have to take this risk....of relying of the "anectotes of the victimes"....
Have you thought about advertising in the equestrian press for information, by this way I do have found the swiss incedent....but informations are rare, 'cause everything is nice or the peolpe are to afraid...(at least about what...?)...?
although to do this tactfully and not imply any criticism will be difficult.
So, I can hardly beleave that it is all gold what shines....

[ambatt]

Tricky, very tricky!

Do you think the trainers will not co-operate in providing negative experiences in case they are sued? Given today's litigation culture then this would seem likely?

Mark Rashid admits when it goes wrong, but that is in his books, as someone else pointed out he is not technically an NH person.

Have you tried Kelly Marks and Richard Maxwell? I did know of someone who sent a horse away to be schooled at a known NH yard and it came back a wreck. It was a friend of a friend and a few years ago, will see if they would talk abut their experience, but it might take a while.

[cvb]

Tricky, very tricky!

Do you think the trainers will not co-operate in providing negative experiences in case they are sued? Given today's litigation culture then this would seem likely?


I don't think this is just about the trainers concern about litigation. If someone says something slanderous or libellous about a trainer, they WILL end up in court. So anyone who talks about their experiences would need to be very sure of their facts - and anyone who quotes such experiences would also need to be extremely rigorous to ensure the facts of the case.

I have seen someone doing something I thought was not entirely effective - but that is not a fact, that is my opinion and interpretation of what I saw. And what I saw was not a welfare situation by any means - just not as pleasant or successful as I thought it might have been.

Is that a dark side or is that just reality ?

[horseback]

Tricky, very tricky!

Do you think the trainers will not co-operate in providing negative experiences in case they are sued? Given today's litigation culture then this would seem likely?

Mark Rashid admits when it goes wrong, but that is in his books, as someone else pointed out he is not technically an NH person.

Have you tried Kelly Marks and Richard Maxwell? I did know of someone who sent a horse away to be schooled at a known NH yard and it came back a wreck. It was a friend of a friend and a few years ago, will see if they would talk abut their experience, but it might take a while.

Well, I have seen Kelly Marks here in France and was asking myself if she wanted to show the people during her demo : what NOT TO DO...." ?!

[ambatt]

I don't think this is just about the trainers concern about litigation. If someone says something slanderous or libellous about a trainer, they WILL end up in court.


I was thinking more along the lines of *if* a trainer admitted they had made a mistake with a horse, and that horse then had an injury, or died or whatever, then the trainer has admitted liability and is therefore more open to litigation. Hence any trainer's not unreasonable desire to be reticent with potentially sensitive information.

And you are absolutely right to point out that a lot of situations are dependent on context and perception and as such open to many different interpretations.

But it will be very interesting research, and for true objectivity the flip side of NH should be examined (and I am not necessarily saying there is a negative side) I just like to see both sides of the coin.

[cvb]

ambatt - didn't mean to say your issue wasn't relevent - more than its double so because of the slander/libel element :)

Horseback

It occurs to me to ask what your benchmark is going to be ? Are you only comparing within "natural horsemanship" or are you going to benchmark to "non-NH" trainers ?

In the UK there is a process of accident reporting that all approved centres have to use. SO in theory you could use accident reports as a way in - compare the rate of accidents in NH to non-NH and explore specific accidents ?

I don't think we would have enough data on the NH centre side to be statistically significant (yet) here in the Uk but as PNH has been adopted by the French federation, you may have more...

[ambatt]

I think the only way to really do the research is to go for work placements on several NH yards! I guess this is utterly impractical, but it would give you first hand insight.

I think cvb is right in saying that establishing a baseline will be difficult because there is no comparable research.

Most of your research and case histories will be anecdotal unless you actively canvass for participants.

Also if you look at the other trainers who follow the teachings of say for argument's sake, Monty Roberts, there is no guarantee that they do follow his principles and treat horses in the same way.

I do know an anecdotal story about that too and I would be happy to tell you about that by PM (will check with people concerned) and then get back to you .

[horseback]

I think the only way to really do the research is to go for work placements on several NH yards! I guess this is utterly impractical, but it would give you first hand insight.

I think cvb is right in saying that establishing a baseline will be difficult because there is no comparable research.

Most of your research and case histories will be anecdotal unless you actively canvass for participants.

Also if you look at the other trainers who follow the teachings of say for argument's sake, Monty Roberts, there is no guarantee that they do follow his principles and treat horses in the same way.

I do know an anecdotal story about that too and I would be happy to tell you about that by PM (will check with people concerned) and then get back to you .

Hope to hear from you....you may contact me also via mail : pour_le_cheval@yahoo.fr

[ambatt]

Will contact you - I will ask the people concerned if it is OK, they are still having to deal with the issues these horses now have.

[Crystal Fire]

While this might be interesting I don't see how you can get a balanced view. If you ask for negative anecdotes then that is what you get, but how will you know how true they are, or how well able the people were to judge what they were seeing? I took part in a demo lesson a couple of years ago where one person (out of 30 watching) decided I was scared of my pony, and my pony was also scared. Absolute rubbish, as the other 29 agreed... but if that one person contacted you with just their view of the truth, then what opinion would you have of what went on?
One trainer tapping the front leg of a horse gently with the toe of his boot, when the horse was attempting to walk all over his head... reported to me as "He's awful, he kicks horses!". I mean, how can you ensure that the anecdotes you collect are objective?
The idea about accident reporting is good in theory, but I worked at an NH yard for 6 months and not one accident in that time was reported to anyone. And there certainly were accidents to working and visiting students.
You mention that you are a future scientist, so can you come up with a fairer, more scientific way to compile your data?
I am not being defensive here, I could offer you a couple of first-hand observations of situations with well-known trainers where I think they damaged the horses, or used unecessary force, but I'm a bit uncomfortable about how they might be used.
As for the way France seem to be embracing Parelli - well, good luck to them! Seems pretty narrow minded to me. :)

[horseback]

While this might be interesting I don't see how you can get a balanced view. If you ask for negative anecdotes then that is what you get, but how will you know how true they are, or how well able the people were to judge what they were seeing? I took part in a demo lesson a couple of years ago where one person (out of 30 watching) decided I was scared of my pony, and my pony was also scared. Absolute rubbish, as the other 29 agreed... but if that one person contacted you with just their view of the truth, then what opinion would you have of what went on?
One trainer tapping the front leg of a horse gently with the toe of his boot, when the horse was attempting to walk all over his head... reported to me as "He's awful, he kicks horses!". I mean, how can you ensure that the anecdotes you collect are objective?
The idea about accident reporting is good in theory, but I worked at an NH yard for 6 months and not one accident in that time was reported to anyone. And there certainly were accidents to working and visiting students.
You mention that you are a future scientist, so can you come up with a fairer, more scientific way to compile your data?
I am not being defensive here, I could offer you a couple of first-hand observations of situations with well-known trainers where I think they damaged the horses, or used unecessary force, but I'm a bit uncomfortable about how they might be used.
As for the way France seem to be embracing Parelli - well, good luck to them! Seems pretty narrow minded to me. :)


Well, how fine it can work with some NH trainers is very well documendet.....I do look for the other side of the coin....sure that it will be only opinions that I will get concerning the negative sides of NH.....but it will be also just an opinion to get....if I do have ask for positive expiriences.....I do know that my little research is kind of tricky.....but anyway it will be just for a private use to see the whole picture of NH, with both sides of the coin.....I 'm afraid that you are right that the frenchies are narrow sided concerning Parelli....it looks like that he's the only one that counts realy for them....all the other NH trainers are not or very well unknown or in the french eyes "just crop".....maybe Parelli will apear one day even on a french poststamp....at least I will be not surprised about it....

[Crystal Fire]

LOL Horseback! Maybe it will be like it was here. A few years ago everyone thought NH = Parelli. Then a few different instructors got over who approached things from a different angle, and people found that was not the case.
I cringe at the thought that the BHS, for example, could be narrow minded enough to adopt only one approach to NH studies over here. It would be like going into a library and only reading the same book over and over again.

[horseback]

LOL Horseback! Maybe it will be like it was here. A few years ago everyone thought NH = Parelli. Then a few different instructors got over who approached things from a different angle, and people found that was not the case.
I cringe at the thought that the BHS, for example, could be narrow minded enough to adopt only one approach to NH studies over here. It would be like going into a library and only reading the same book over and over again.

how right you are....it's a real shame for the french federation to have done it....

[Kate F.]

I think one has to be rather careful in this. There may well be annecdotal cases of "negative" experiences or things that have not worked as planned for just about any trainer in any style - and it is important to keep in mind that the reports of these cases are generally based on the subjective opinion of onlookers, or second hand stories.

Natural horsemanship isn't a magic wand, or a box of pills that "works" or "doesn't work" - it's a whole approach to horses, and as it is based on using equine psychology to create a more harmonious relationship, if it is used properly, it cannot really have "negative" effects as such.

That's not to say things can't go wrong - but let's also bear in mind that NH trainers get a lot of "last resort" cases, and see more than their fair share of very extreme horses that everyone else has given up on. There are some horses that, for whatever reason, cannot be helped - and it is not really fair to blame the trainer who is probably doing the best he/she can to make things better, even if it is in vain.

Let's take the Parelli case mentioned earlier of the horse that colicked and died after a trailer training with Parelli himself. It sounds awful - but there's a lot of background missing. A horse that is this stressed by the trailer almost certainly has other issues - possibly physical. Did the horse suffer regular colics anyway? (Maybe this was why it ws important for it to load - to get it to a vet. clinic in an emergency? Maybe it was usually loaded when suffering a colic and therefore afraid of the trailer?) What was its history? What else happened around the event? Whilst I use a slightly different trailering method from Parelli myself, I know his method and I can't imagine that a healthy, otherwise normal horse would suffer undue stress with his method. Hence, I would be reluctant to blame the man or the method and look at the surrounding circumstances. Parelli may be a smart business man, and a lot of other things in the commerical connection - but I've met him (if only briefly) and know people who know him much better, and I am sure he would not intentionally put a horse in danger.

Added to that, we should not confuse the philosophy and principles of NH with the individual practitioners. That's like saying if a doctor makes a mistake, medical science is at fault. Anyone can make a mistake, or a mis-judgement, but that's not to say that the underlying principles are wrong - just that they were wrongly or inappropriately applied in a particular case.

Does's help much with the specific examples, Horseback, but perhaps it's something worth mentioning! ;)

[FRED]

I agree with Kate, especially on a internet forum where so many of the ' facts' can be missing or misinterpreted by generalising or translation.
Honesty is great, but seems to also attract sarcasm rather than help or useful advise, looking for the positive way forward. I once voiced my concerns about a horse at a NH demo.But a fact everyone missed was that he had a heavy winter coat,small wonder he was sweating profusely,I'm a lot wiser now about the methods being used,but will always think the horse should have been pardoned from any more demo work , was this abuse?. or maybe I'm to soft.

I expect everyone has off days too, horses do, its knowing when to stop before you need to stop. For cases of abuse, I personally would hope the justice system would be relied on to prove guilt rather than public forums, infact I think things would be better if people used their energy positively, SCREAMING AND SHOUTING ABUSE,DOSN'T HELP THE VICTIM.Of course I do understand research is not a bad thing given all the facts.

Anyone who has really worked with or ridden a strong willed horse {and with issues about training too} will know just how tough and dangerous things can be,a little learning can be a dangerous thing, but learning can be safe with the right help and planning ahead, this doesn't mean for one moment the trainer has a macho attitude, be they male or female.
I have worked with two horses that have reputations for injuring people, no way would you injure them back, both have wonderful temperaments in my mind/eyes {i think the world of these two}and its not rocket science to find there better side and encourage it {if someone doesn't know already,they will find out, that for all the allegations that this or that training method is dominance or Alpha based, this just doesn't work,but some work may indeed be tough, the horse always tells the truth, but you need to know all the facts too } in a ideal world everything would be perfect.
Slow, timing, understanding and when to reward work wonders, but even that can't fix everything if you don't give a horse time, that seems to me, the real issue.

[Yann]

Fred, have you read Be With Your Horse by Tom Widdecombe? I think you would like it, along with the Rashid stuff of course :)

[FRED]

hi Yann, I know nothing of Tom Widdecombe:o , I have looked at the Rashid web site and like his style very much,its where to start. I'm real choosey,{horses tend to teach me,} hence have few books{lots of breed and type books :) }.Love Dorrance and Desmond book, read that one lots and EE.
And Im always looking for one that clicks with me,so one to look out for:)
Im limited with friends who love horse, bring me Motorhead/ ozzy DVDs and bike stuff:o .
Have you seen the loading DVD yet?

[Crystal Fire]

(Got your email Yann, will reply in a day or so :) )
I know of an incident where an NH trainer (I won't say which label he had attached), loaded a horse on a clinic. Next day horse collapsed at the foot of the ramp hyperventilating when owner was loading it, and the vet had to be called. Terrible eh?
Now for the background. Owner arrived on 2 day intro course with horse in trailer. Needed help with loading, the horse had been doped to load to come. Trainer did a little session on the first evening. Next day owner announced that they needed to leave - now - because of high winds coming up and having to travel on the motorway. Also, the horse was already booked to go to the vet the following day and would have to travel in the trailer again...! Trainer in a bit of a fix, with a clinic of people to teach... Luckily had an experienced student watching, so set the clinic up with various tasks which the student then helped with, and loaded the horse. He didn't use high levels of pressure, but was persistent. Gave the horses rests in between being in the trailer. But eventually the ramp had to go up and the horse had to leave.
So what should he have done? Told owner "your problem" maybe and then had to bear people saying that xyz couldn't load my horse. Dunno.

[FRED]

Interesting and what a dilemma, Crystal Fire,
Personally I absolutely forbid the ramp to be closed until I could be as sure as possible our horse was going to remain calm.There's no total guarantee.But I planned it taking a week or as long as needed.

Seen a Terrible incident loading, had children with me and managed to divert their minds/eyes away from what just happened,they asked what's up with my eyes, had no idea about how bad the loading accident was, terrible, and people cursed a vet who had the hardest job of all, to cap the whole tragedy off,a voice comes over the assembly area speakers, will rider xxxx and horse xxxx please please hurry up, causing a delay.

Has any one ever noticed the sides of the steel boxes on some Hunt transporters{no Im not saying all, honest} clearly horses have seriously freaked out while inside.

[horseback]

So ....it's looke like that everything is nice and fine under the sun in Parelli-Land.....?!!! Good to know that they are absolutly no clouds at all on the horizon....!
Or is the sun shinnig so bright....that everybody is blinded by the light ?

[Crystal Fire]

No it isn't, an nor is it with any trainer horseback :)
Fred, I really felt for him. I felt he had been backed into a corner on this one and couldn't win. The horse was calm when they put the ramp up and drove off, but obviously it had been too much for her and flooded her. However, as the owner had brought her 100 odd miles from home, and wanted to take her back that day... and the trainer was leaving that day... It was a bad situation.

[Kate F.]

Fred, I really felt for him. I felt he had been backed into a corner on this one and couldn't win. The horse was calm when they put the ramp up and drove off, but obviously it had been too much for her and flooded her.

I wouldn't even be too sure of that. If the horse had been sedated to travel one day - travelled 100 miles (so probably 2 and a half hours or so) - then clinic, then the same journey back - it might have been the travelling that was too much - not the trailer training. Travelling a sedated horse has its risks too, and most vets are reluctant to sedate before travelling unless it is a real emergency.

What was wrong with the horse that she had to go to the vets the next day? Could an existing condition have been something to do with it?

[FRED]

I know that my request is extremly hazardous.... so please don't get me wrong ....my attention is not to start a war about diffient opinions....



Im sure I would go and watch Pat Parelli here in the UK, but he seems busy and never here.

:)

[Crystal Fire]

I thought PP had no intentions of returning to the UK for some time.
Kate, I'm trying to remember what the horse had to go to the vet's for... but I can't. As you say, it could have been the travelling that caused her collapse the following day. Particularly as the owner was deciding to head off early because of warnings of high winds on the motorways. However, the owner is of course telling everyone she ever meets who mentions this trainer or the system that he follows about how the whole thing causes trauma to horses and how traumatised her horse was... I think that demonstrates why asking for anecdotes doesn't give a particularly effective study of any approach to horsemanship.
... and I'm not defending PNH, I'm not a great fan myself. But I know why, and it's based on my own personal experience and observations, not second-hand opinions.

[Kate F.]

Exactly - Crystal Fire!! ;)

"Blame the system/trainer for my own mistakes/misjudgements/accidents" is common in all areas of life, not just NH.

I think it's related to "blame the government for everything from the weather to road accidents" - something happened I didn't want - so it must be somebody else's fault! :D

[cvb]

So ....it's looke like that everything is nice and fine under the sun in Parelli-Land.....?!!! Good to know that they are absolutly no clouds at all on the horizon....!
Or is the sun shinnig so bright....that everybody is blinded by the light ?

horseback

this seems a very odd thing to say. the Newrider board is not affiliated to any particular trainer - we will discuss all and sundry and have views both for and against most approaches represented here.

But the board is friendly and constructive and tends not to support malignant gossip or unfounded mud-slinging (on ANY subject). We also tend to be quite a challenging bunch and don't just accept "the sun shines out of..." type comments without good evidence behind them ;) (photos of the sun, and the person concerned ;) )

This balanced view is one of the reasons most of us are still here and posting, despite our differing points of view.

We HAVE suggested ways you might collect the data you are looking for. So I don't see why you posted that comment ?

[Mike]

Well put CVB, we have been around in pointless circles before about A is better than B which usually seems to degenerate into a mud slinging match.

A contact email has been left for those who wish to send any comments but I am closing this thread.