Bitting...or not. How many people know the principles?

[janet hakeney]

Following the highly controversial thread re the Russian trainer who is anti bits and physical restraints of any kind.....

99.99% of riders have no hope of training their horses without use of some form of restraint techniques (halters, ropes, bits, bridles etc). I am interested to find out what is the depth of knowledge from this community about how and why the restraint techniques that most of use use work and how they are viewed and used.

I used to bit horses routinely and am aware of the different families of bits and their action. I am not convinced that this is common knowledge.

These days I am an NH trainer and start all horses in a halter before bitting and move on from there to bridless (with a neck string). I currently have one horse who will work in bridless collection .....with vertical flexion....piaffe, passage, SW, canter pirroutes etc. I do not feel I would have been able to achieve this without initially using some form of restraint technique. :rolleyes:

[Yann]

As someone solidly in the 99.99% my thoughts on this would be that used correctly any kind of restraint applies pressure and release. Used incorrectly it's just restraint. 99.99% of us don't have the time, skill or ability to do otherwise, all you can do is your best at the time within the limits you operate in. Most horses seem to manage fine despite that.

I used a rubber pelham and elastic curb to help teach my horse to work correctly, and to a greater or lesser extent it has worked, and she's now back in a snaffle. We still have a long way to go and we'll probably not get very far in the scheme of things, but the primary objective personally was for a more athletic horse with a strong back, and we've got some of that. We've followed the route of riding forward into the bridle like most do, but without fiddling or sawing. I would say I was aware of the action of the bits I've used, but my primary objective was always the comfort of my horse.

[HairyCob]

I have to confess that until recently I had very little idea about different families of bits or their action... I knew that snaffles were supposed to be 'kind' and that anything with long shanks or a curb was 'harsher'.

Since the HC fiasco and especially since buying Dolly, I have made it one of my missions to find out more, and bought a book on the principles of bits and bitting.

I'm proud to say that when it became apparant that Dolly could be strong and evasive in the 3 ring gag she was sent to me in, I changed it for a MILDER bit...three years ago I'd have dropped the rein onto the bottom ring and when that didn't work, I'd have bought something stronger.

Dolly is now going like a dream in a much kinder bit... with the long term aim of getting her to the point that a) she doesn't need a martingale (don't think this will be long, with the old bit the martingale was constantly in play, with the new one, it rarely is) and b) ultimately bitless.

I have to agree with you Janet, much of the 'horsey fraternity' have no idea at all about 'restraint' tack or bits or their action, and as the old adage goes, a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. Several people advised me to put Dolly 'immediately' into a kinerton noseband to keep her head down, or to 'try' a kimblewick etc.:rolleyes:

I don't feel I know enough now, but at least I'm trying to learn:D

[ambatt]

I am not confident enough in my own abilities to progress to bitless riding - yet!
I suppose this could be interpreted as a reliance on props and restraint due to my failings, but I do not perceive either of my horses to be suffering due to being ridden in the traditional bitted manner. Both my horses are ridden in full cheek french link bits, I use no other 'gadgets'.

My girls are responsive to weight and seat aids and I have schooled them to the best of my ability.

A few months ago I rode Paso Finos, these are originally started in headcollars with reins, then progress to the bosal and then to a really severe S. American bit with a really, really high port and long shanks. The pain reaction this bit must cause given the elevation and narrowness of the port does not bear thinking about. But the horses were so light you did not need to touch the reins (Pain expectation??). Not sure this was a valid means to an end though.

I always try and ride my horses in the minimum bittage I can.

Edited to add:
I think I do know the principles of bitting, basic anatomy of the equine mouth, and the action of the various 'families' of bits. Can I ask you Janet, if you are a lady of more *ahem* mature years? I am 40 and it was standard pony club practice to have a good knowledge of bits and bitting.

[Yann]

I am not confident enough in my own abilities to progress to bitless riding - yet!


So long as your horse is sensible and fairly well behaved you don't need to have much ability - something like the Dr Cook provides a decent level of control for those moments when you might need it :)

[Whatanejit]

I ordered a Dr Cook this morning.

Friend is also lending me a bridle for which I have ordered a happy mouth bit which he has been schooling in for the past 5 weeks or so.

Plan to introduce them both to him and try and do bitless as much as possible to always.

Fingers crossed - I'll keep you posted on my or indeed Cooper's progress.

xx

[Wally]

In my experience 99% of horses will go quite happily bitless. I am totally aware of how it is impossible to stop a horse with a bit in his mouth if he isn't listening or educated or is scared. I think there is this idea, perpetuated by the BHS, that to have a bit in the horse's mouth means you have more control!

Having said that, I'm not sure how this trainer would transfer his teachings on to the driven horse, where the only cue you can give is through the voice and rein or whip.

[SkyLady]

Dr Deb Bennett has just released a DVD set specifically on mouth anatomy and bits called "Anatomy of Bitting" if anyone wants to learn more about bits and how to choose the right one for your horse.

[hackedoff]

The Dr Cook bridle is my favourite piece of kit :)

[ambatt]

I am playing Devil's Advocate here so don't shout at me, but are there any negative reports on the action of bitless bridles like the Dr Cook? Obviously I am aware that the Blair or English pattern hackamore and the German hackamore can be severe, but I just wondered if there had been anything published on the Dr Cook and similar bridles?

I just like to know all my facts first before I try something out, I am genuinely interested in going bitless, but I am an utter wimp!

[tazzle22]

Hi Janet *laura waves*

I would put myself I think in the middle of the 99.99% of folk with regard to the knowledge aspect of bitting in that I am aware of the relvant actions of most bits but , for example , would not have a clue really about a double bridle / bits and thefore no skill whatsoever in its use :eek:

Whilst I think that it is possible to gain "compliance" / communication with many equines without physical restraint to a certain level with a fair bit of horsmanship knowledge and skills .. it would certainly take much longer than the majority of people would be prepared to invest !!!! Maybe if I was starting out again with a young horse I would consider trying it ........ but since that wont happen its academic for me.

I think I would get a bit stuck when it came to the actual riding part ....... ground work I can often do with no halter on at all ...... and Taz will come with me from a light touch on her head behind the ear usually. However my riding skills are not sound enough, or my confidence good enough, to ride even her without at least a rope halter on ( aiming for the neck string though Janet !!!!). certainly though I would aim for any horse in my care to be bitless ..... dont have to be a great rider for that ambatt :D ... in fact with novioces I prefer they ride Taz bitless ...... she wont get jabbed in the mouth when balance less than perfect :rolleyes:


HI Wally

Having said that, I'm not sure how this trainer would transfer his teachings on to the driven horse, where the only cue you can give is through the voice and rein or whip.

I wondered too ...... but have been told ( and was promised a video ) of someone who drives her horse ..... but only uses the guidance of a whip on either side. Think it was started in a rope halter though and she must use voice to stop ???? If I ever get the video I will certainly let you know !!!!


I drive Taz bitless too in a dr cook ..... and I know someone who drives around her own land in a rope halter.

Taz has never been driven in a bit and we have the accuracy to get through cones like in driving trials - my vehicle 130cm wide , the cones 150cm wide.... but ..... like the riding was "taught" with "restraint" and pressure / release .......... so we still remained slightly conventional :D

[Mossy]

I ride with a bit, and, some would say, a "harsh" one on occasion. It very much depends on what I am doing and who with. However any bit, or indeed any connection between human hand and equine head, is only as strong as the hands, and body balance on the end of it. No bit invented will stop a horse per se, but they can be useful as part of the tool kit. Having said that Con lunges best either with a pessoa or just on voice, not even a lunge line. I have absolutley no intention of freeschooling in a pessoa - safety reasons.

[ambatt]

I think what I need to do is try a bitless in a very controlled environment on my very safe cob. (Whom I think would benefit from going bitless due to her conformational challenges -she is very long backed, croup high and drops to her forehand - thus becoming a bit leaner)

It is not that I am a bad rider, I constantly strive to improve, but am just lacking in confidence so for me a bit is a security strap psychologically speaking.

There is a guy on my yard who is bitless and saddleless! He is a university lecturer in equine biomechanics perhaps I can ask nicely?

[Wally]

So how do you then go on to teams and tandem? You'd need an awful lot of whips!

I wondered too ...... but have been told ( and was promised a video ) of someone who drives her horse ..... but only uses the guidance of a whip on either side. Think it was started in a rope halter though and she must use voice to stop ???? If I ever get the video I will certainly let you know !!!!

[tazzle22]

:D :D :D

yes Wally i could just picture it ........ colour code the whips :rolleyes:

guess she only drives one at a time ???

and dont know if even I would be brave enough to try it !!!!!!!!!!! ( me of the mad , bad and dangerous club that drives bitless :D ;) :D )


bitless might be ok with teams though :D :eek: :D


off now to go play with Taz .................

[Tots N Dots]

I am not always sure that confidence in ability and ability are linked Ambatt,
in my age younger days, (not sure my brain has ever grown up ;) ), I would quite happily sit on a three year old, with no tack at all, facing the wrong way doing my homework on his bum, stable or field as he grazed, in my shorts and t-shirt, often homework would get abandoned and we would wander round the field on seat and voice command, not that I had trained him to do it, I would say my abilities are better now than then, but would I do the same thing now? :eek: I am far to aware of the consequences of something going wrong, I am still struggling with the idea of bitting my current youngster and keep putting it off, I really dont want to bit him full stop, but feel for his all round general education it is a must :o

[ambatt]

I have just seen a biothane synthetic Dr Cook -I might treat Dolly Cob and give it a go.
<goes off to find life insurance documents given previous track record>

[janet hakeney]

In the discussions about what 'type' of restraint (bit, halter bridle etc) you chose to use I rarely see any incitefull comments about the action of bits (excluding the recent chifney thread which was quite explicit), and how, if at all, you prepare and train your horse to respond.

Bear in mind that these restraints are in effect a mechanical means of exerting pressure (at degrees from light feel to extreme pain) on the seven pressure points on a horses head (poll, tongue, bars, corners, roof of mouth, curb groove and nose), and have no mechanical effect in slowing or turning the horse at all. The only thing a restraint can do is exert pressure and release it. The effect any given restraint has is reliant on training the horse has received to respond to it and the skill and timing of the pressure and release.

All horses are born with soft mouths (albeit that some of the draught breeds have rather 'fleshier, rubbery mouths sometimes), so a hard mouthed horse that is deemed to require a 'strong' bit is either (a) insufficiently trained or (b)badly ridden or (c) has had its nerve endings destroyed by previous abuse. (b) & (c) going progressivly hand in hand (or hand in mouth)

It is a common misconception that the reins/bit/bridle are for stopping or turning the horse. They should be one small part of our means of communication. I do not use my reins to stop. I use them if my horse DOES NOT STOP. I do not use my reins to turn. I use them if my horse DOES NOT TURN.

Prior to using any bit at all I assess mouth conformation and temperament in chosing a suitable bit, then I train the horse to respond to it appropriatly before I ride in it.

[tazzle22]

Totally agree with you janet in that the bits etc only apply pressure / release .......... and its the training that counts . I have had a lot of people call me "brave" ( as well as mad etc ....... for riding bitless let alone driving :eek: ) . .......... and agree that most of these same people pay lip service ( no pun intended !!!) to the notion of using the body aids etc to turn and stop. I have given several people "lessons" on Taz bareback and told them to leave the riens down ( still on cause they totally lose it otherwise :eek: ) and then just LOOK where they want to go ... the look on the faces when she turns ... and ok the reins wil give a "fine tuning" sometimes as we aint that proecise yet :rolleyes:

Same with stopping ... novice sharer riding Bonney has been surprised when she has more success slowing down and stopping her by "sitting deep and relaxing" than by "bracing and pulling on the reins".

Neither of theses horses is very schooled and certainly bow down in the presence of your handsome chappie Janet :cool:

I recently wrote to two riding magazines following articles on bitless bridles ...... and in the one where someone said in the article that all horses are able to be comfortabley bitted my question was that if that were so then why oh why were 60% of all horses shown in all the horse mags I sampled wearing some form of dropped noseband ?????? Why are so many horses mouths being shut over the bit ???

I have also questioned the principle the majority of riders seem to have that a horse that is salivating with a bit in is happy and relaxed in it ...... Whilst the horse may be happy , does salivation actually equal happy and relaxed ....... or is it the automatic salivary response to stimulation in the mouth ?????? Could a salivating horse actually be rather uncomfortable ???? ( either in the bit or the stromach which might be affected by the acid secreted in response to the stimulation of the digestive response by something being in the mouth)


It has also been promoted that a bit is necessary to stimulate certain nerves in the jaw to relax it ..... and to enable the hind leg to come under and engage ( wish I could remember the site this was discussed on !!

I questioned that

* I have seen very relaxed mouths and jaws on bitless horses ...... why is the bit necessary to demonstrate relaxation. ( I will concede that a relaxed horse has accepted the bit .... but surely one can have a horse "obedient and relaxed" without as well ???

* I was under the impression it was the action of the leg on the rib cage that stimulated that response of bringing hind leg under .

I did have some other comments but mind gone balnk at the mo ...... been working 7 am to 10 pm last few days and been up since 6 this morning .......

brain hurts :mad:


still ........



It is a common misconception that the reins/bit/bridle are for stopping or turning the horse. They should be one small part of our means of communication. I do not use my reins to stop. I use them if my horse DOES NOT STOP. I do not use my reins to turn. I use them if my horse DOES NOT TURN.

completely agree re ridden horses Janet but might need reins a little more when driving ....... although Taz does most of driving from voice alone I do use reins a little more than when riding !!!! Ideally though eventually I'd love to at least stop totally by voice EVERY time I ask for it ;) ... she does react to voice almost always in forward gear :D .

The only thing a restraint can do is exert pressure and release it. The effect any given restraint has is reliant on training the horse has received to respond to it and the skill and timing of the pressure and release
This is what I keep saying to those who say am brave /mad to drive bitless !!!!!!!!


BTW could get inciteful about some peoples use of bits !!!!

e.g when I was helping a friend out with tack stall at a small show teen rider came up to ask advice about bit . needed a new one and said she having some problems .... gee gee throwing head up in air when she wanted to stop . She had a single jointed snaffle ....... on looking at quite small mouth pony she pointed to in the distance I suggested the bit might be hitting the top of his mouth and that might be why head going up, maybe she might like to try a french link or similar.. She went away happy but returned later saying her instructor had told her to get the same single jointed snaffle again !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The owner of the tack stall ( a very qualifed bod ) agreed with my take on the matter and we felt sooooo sad for the poor pony that was obviously in discomfort as we watched it ridden round later !!!!!!!!!!!!


BTW I am not anti bit per se ........ just anti lota peoples (ab)use of them !!!!!!!

[Wally]

Janet, in a nutshell, so very well put.

I would happily drive any of my lot bitless, but driving rules mean I cannot compete and I doubt that my insurance would pay up for an incident on the public highway bitless. Any of our lot will go bitless i don't ever give it any thought. I use other parts of my body to stop and start and turn, not the poor horse's mouth when riding

The driving horses go on the voice, If I want a turn I use the terms "come" and "get" get to the left and come to the right. If I want a turn on the haunches to turn the vehicle in it's own length I say "come round" or "get over" You can drop your reins and they will oblige you.

[tazzle22]

I doubt that my insurance would pay up for an incident on the public highway bitless.

Mine has accepted us bitless driving Wally

off out to work again now ...........

[Wally]

Which insurance co?????

[tazzle22]

Nfu

:)

BTW there are several people I know of that want to / do drive bitless .... including a BDS personage who is my instructor !

[FRED]

quote:
It is a common misconception that the reins/bit/bridle are for stopping or turning the horse. They should be one small part of our means of communication. I do not use my reins to stop. I use them if my horse DOES NOT STOP. I do not use my reins to turn. I use them if my horse DOES NOT TURN.

And still today, so many teach the former.

Last year I had seven months of lessons with a horse who at 1st, turned where he liked and exploded into canter when he liked,anticipated what's next,had no idea a half halt was just a communication before a aid {despite being assured he had very expensive traditional training for dressage,whatever level I could only hazard a guess}
I nearly gave up..People watched in awe how I stayed on the saddle,while Im in awe of his expensive traditional training :eek:
My new instructor {who owns a Lusitano and rides mostly bitless with her horse} advised we are both going to learn again after our assessment,horse and I.You can imagine the scary moments with a strong horse, unsafe to hack.My instructor advised I didn't need to give up, forget the reins{although still there,just work on slow and re educate,from the legs and seat through a series of courses set up in the school and ground work.Brought a whole new world to me,more so in trust, although it never escaped my mind its a shame so many of us learn via this hard route, influencing change is not easy either in horse or rider training.

Eventually our re-training, leading to the means of communication with only very light contact via reins,{we set up some very imaginative courses in the school} that helped us achieve clean circles and serpentines,even a few very tight circles that would do a Quarter horse proud,achieved better head carriage,with just the gentlest of bit contact and not wondering off track.
Yes we still had the odd off moment, but regards control/steering/stop with the reins, we had absolutely none ever, in our case, The reins/bit improved so many things regarding finesse, but there actual use came into play last,all be I had never riden without them, the difference a good trainer makes.

[ambatt]

This has just sparked off a memory.

Many years ago (about 20!) I had riding lessons from an ex-jockey. One memorable day he gave me a lesson in an open field, on a partbred Arab on a windy day.
The ex-jockey David, took my stirrups off me, then took my reins away (literally) and then taught me how to start, stop and change direction using just my seat. It was the most amazing thing I have ever been taught and was a revelation at the time.

I have never been able to do it since and I long to recapture that feeling.

[Wally]

Teaching folk to drive is interesting. Those who have never ridden do better then those who ride.

Riders try to take up a gorilla grip through the reins, maybe it's because they feel too far away and by taking up the reins, psychologically, they can get closer to the horse, I don't know. They then go through a learning curve where they spend 20 minutes over-steering and kangaroo petrol-ing their way down the long sides of the school. :D Once they get the feel and find that, for some reason, a driving contact is so, so , SO light they do better.

Non riders don't seem to have this problem, they accept the feedback through the reins and don't go through the dreadful pulling stage.

[FRED]

quote:
They then go through a learning curve where they spend 20 minutes over-steering and kangaroo petrol-ing their way down the long sides of the school. Once they get the feel and find that, for some reason, a driving contact is so, so , SO light they do better.

Sounds like me and my 1st car {or cart would be more apt}MK 1 Cortina,funny thing was, it was years before I had a car as I preffered motor bike, never did kangaroo those:D

[Mossy]

Wally do you think the grip is due to the fascination with a tight contact that we riders must apparently have ?

[Wally]

I don't know why riders tend to over do the reins. Esther says she finds the same thing. Maybe it's the feel that the reins are the only means of communication as they are so far away and have yet to understand voice and just how subtle communication is through the reins.

If you get in the habit of driving coachman with a gorilla grip, all that happens is you get a very, very sore left hand.

One superb way to get folk to lighten the hands is tell them to push down HARD on the footboard with the feet and stretch taller, it has the effect of lightening your hands greatly.

Once you have more than one set of reins to play with and 4 horses pulling on you, if you start a pulling match just who is going to win?? :D :D It is said that proper rein handling in driving should be like making sweet music on a harp, in that one keeps a gentle contact with the left hand and you lightly pluck the strings with the right.

[tazzle22]

How wonderfully put Wally :D

I was trying to think back to when I first drove after years of riding and I cant remember quite so much "being all over the shop" like some of the folk that have tried with Taz .... however

I had done a lot of long reining as Taz had an "issue" with saddles LOL , plus I do tend to ride anyway with hardly any contact ..... lots hacking / endurance, especially over very varied terrain one tends to give the horse much more responsibility for taking care of its own balance and engagement :rolleyes: ...... having a more "relaxed" head carriage etc.

However if I were to place myself in the "newcomer" frame of mine again I think its the length of rein that would make me think I needed to "take up the slack" more as I think it would take longer to get the message through from hand to mouth ????? and I would anticipate that the reins would be heavier too.

However it may aslo be because riders feel "less in control" because much more emphasis hads been put on the seat and legs being much more important aids that the bit ......and that bits do not stop a horse .... now suddenly thats all there is. You also cant use disengagement of the hindquarters or turning in a small circle to stop a horse running off ;)

Lots reasons I suppose ...........

I think you are also right about the voice ........ many riders are discouraged from talking to their horses and some think horses dont / cant understand (or be "controlled" by ) words.

Actually I think horses are far more astute than many people give them credit for ... it always amazes me that Taz listens to everything and will pick up what request is meant for her out of a conversation :D