In A Whisper #2

[cvb]

Hi

Thanks to the benevolence of an NRer, I got a copy of In A Whisper to look at - and have promised to post my thoughts. I wanted to start this quite quickly after seeing it so I don't lose the initial impressions - but will reflect over the next few days (and possibly watch it over again).

But one big note before I say anything more... we have already discussed, a lot, the ethics of this "event", their use of 2 yeard olds and so on. I don't want to reopen that. Its been said...

So I'd like to declare it out of scope for this discussion. This does NOT mean I agree or disagree with it. Merely that I think there are other aspects we could bring out about the DVD and the event that get lost in the discussion about whether it should have happened at all ...and I want to cover some of those things.

For example, the DVD displays the three pens in a split screen style, almost like "24" does. Trying to watch three things at a time is difficult when you're human and have binocular vision ;) It shouldn't have been impossible to offer you the chance to watch each feed at a time on the DVD - but unless I missed something, this is not available :(

So I probably need to watch this thing over another 3 times - one for each trainer ! (Having watched it as an overall programme initially).

The intro to the DVD doesn't really set the event up very well. Some nice glossy shots of horses galloping in the country side and voice over - and then you are into the horses in the pens and the clinicians choosing which one to work with. It would have been useful to have a better intro to the structure of the event itself - upfront rather than as a slow reveal during the show.

My OH watched this with me - but hadn't heard anything about it prior to that. He was quite shocked (knowing a little about NH) that they would set it up as a "competition" in the first place. Whilst you can take the 2.5 hour working session as more of a demo, the addition of the judged element at the end turned it into a direct comparison.

more thoughts to follow....

[cvb]

The DVD starts with a very general intro and then takes you to the event itself. It seems to be have run at the back end of the day because the end part is in the dark. This may have been down to weather considerations as they had misters running for the audience and commented on the heat etc for the horses. Each pen had a bucket of water available.

Having done the intro, you see the 6 horses (3 pairs) in the pens and each clinician/trainer draws a pair to choose from. (Each pair appeared to have a "sponsor" company, which hence got its name mentioned ;) ).

They talked to each person about their choice and why they chose it. I was interested that both Josh L and Pat P chose horses that had more energy/movement. It was commented that the horses needed to still have energy left after the 2.5 hour session and JL commented that the horse he didn't choose had a gummy eye so might have been unwell. Craig Cameron said he chose the calmer horse of the two.

None of them openly based their choice on confirmation.

(JL subsquently had some problems progressing with saddling as he couldn't find a cinch short enough to fit his saddle to his horse ! PP leant him a shorter cinch to try - which didn't work - and CC leant him a whole saddle (which did work).

It was nice to see this level of co-operation between the "competitors" :D )

[cvb]

some general observations of the 2.5 round pen sessions....

JL quite quickly had a bridle on his horse. It was commented that JL felt this gave him a better feel and control, but also that "he'd found a weakness in the horse that allowed him to bridle it". I don't like the word "weakness" in this context - but if I set that aside, they were basically saying that the horse had not had a problem with him bridling it, so he went ahead and did it.

all three appeared to have problems with one side of the horse - I think it was always the right side. i.e. that the horse was much less comfortable turning that way, accepting the person on that side and so on.

PP started with a massively long "carrot stick" and spent a lot of time moving the horse with that, before progressing to a rope and working the horse with it. With the rope he pretty much had it spiralled around the horse from back to front...

JL and CC both started the work with the horse online - JL to a bridle and CC to a halter.

In all cases they had worked the horses pretty much from every angle on the ground first, before saddling. And especially working to get acceptance on the difficult side.

Saddling happened at slightly different stages in each pen (and as mentioned before, JL had some delay finding a saddle that would fit and cinch). But having saddled, it then took further time before anyone actually got up and in at least one case the saddle came off and on a few times before that. I noticed JL stepped up and down from both sides repeatedly and then actually unsaddled and let the horse take a rest. The others may have done similar but would have been on the small parts of the screen at the time :rolleyes:

If I recall right, the only horse to buck when saddled was the one that was saddled and then turned loose (CC). The other two didn't seem to turn their saddled horses loose straight away when first saddled, and seemed to get less "reaction" as a result.

At regular intervals during the round pen work, the presenters would interview each trainer for 5-10 mins. This also meant the horses got a short break.

The commentary in between these sessions was sometimes annoying and I wanted to be able switch it off (another function the DVD could have had - a choice of commentaries !). For example, they'd comment "oh so-and-so has just done X, he's the first" or "notice how X is doing Y" and actually they weren't the first or the only to do whatever it was :mad:

[HairyCob]

Interesting posts CVB, keep them coming!:D

[cvb]

By the end of the 2.5 hr round pen session all riders were mounted.

JL later commented he had not worked on lope (see below). All riders seemed to have also had a go at roping from their horse.

The horses were all returned to their pens while the obstacle course was set up. They all returned dried out and looking good so must have had time to relax and drink etc.

The "test" part was

- walk, jog, lope on both reins. Halt, stand for 10 secs, rein back.
- obstacles including a "jump" (bale high).
- "freestyle"

The commentator made the point that they had not really been sure how to set up this final phase so had set a time limit - but they did extend it. In each case the rider took some time at the beginning to get back on the horse before they started the test - but not ages. JL was the only one using a bit and bridle - the other two used halters. CC went first and the performance was workman-like - not perfect but not shabby for a horse with only 2.5 hours work. The horse went past the "jump" a couple of times, but then stepped over it. He did do something for the freestyle but I'd have to check what it was as my memory is failing me.

PP - took quite a while at the beginning to settle the horse but seemed to me to "push" the horse most in the walk/jog/lope part. The horse was not comfortable with lope and didn't stay out on the rail, but PP took him out and tried a few times, on each rein. The "infamous" freestyle was when Parelli took the horse up by the round pen gate - used the arch to stand in the saddle, and then took his shirt off and waved it round is head.

JL - said he would not lope in the first section as he hadn't done it in the round pen. In my opinion he was the calmest round, with the horse seeming the most relaxed. He didn't seem to have planned a freestyle and had a stab at sidepass but didn't really get it.

All did the roping section of the test. All the horses dragged something (a log and a bale).

Some things I forgot to say earlier... I think JL's horse was the only one that didn't buck at any stage. The commentator reckoned it had the potential to buck and that JL not pushing the lope in the test was cos he didn't want to set the horse bucking... (PPs horse bucked when he was on it in the later stages of the round pen work).

I didn't see any sign, in any of the rope work, of any of the constriction of airways type techniques that were mentioned in a previous thread. If they were there, they weren't obvious.

I'm sure I'll see more when I watch this over again.

At the end, JL was very low key about "winning" and commented that they had all dealt with different challenges. There was comment about PP picking a "difficult" horse. One of the problems with this kind of demo is how do you know when it is the horse that is difficult (in itself) and when it is the techniques. For example, could JLs horse have been as problematic if he had approached it differently ? we just don't know.

All 3 are clearly skilled at what they do. What we saw was as very limited view of their work - purely what came up in starting those specific colts.

I probably know more about PNH than about Lyons or CC's approach. So the following comments focus on PP but that is more to do with me knowing more than me having more "problems" with his part in this. I was surprised to see PP doing what I felt was putting "goals before principles" in the test section. I was also interested that although he started with an elongated carrot stick, I felt there was not an obvious connection (in tasks) between how he worked the horse and his programme. You could say that a lot of it was extreme friendly game.... but I've seen him at conferences and the link has been much much stronger (between the "games" and how he works a horse). Happy that he was using the same principles - wonder if I had seen one of his colt starting clinics I might see the connection more easily ?

Overall, impressed with JL :D

[Crystal Fire]

Just a quick observation. I was given a bit of home-made video of Pat P working with a young horse at his ranch. I think his programme, and the 7 games, are for the benefit of the people rather than the horses. When he's working a young horse he doesn't need to check all those boxes, but will still have a set of moves and yields in his head that he needs the horse to understand before he gets it saddled and ridden. You wouldn't see a clear 7 games approach when he's working with a horse on his own and for his own benefit, but he will make sure that it will yield forwards, backwards, front and hind end, have lateral flexion, move around him etc etc.
I visited some John Lyons trainers in the UK and spent a very interesting morning there. They said they introduce the bit as soon as the horse will accept it, because that is what the horse is going to be working in so why not? They didn't seem to have the same emphasis on teaching in a rope halter before bitted. I was watching them doing lateral work etc in the bridle and commented that I would do that with my horse, but in the rope halter. They said, why bother, why not just teach straight away in the bridle as long as you can keep it soft? Which makes sense doesn't it? It depends what your goals are.

[cvb]

Crystal Fire - yes I'd say thats what this looked like. You could see him moving the horse - gently - with pressure.

But then if the idea was to demo his/their aproach, wouldn't he make it clearer ?

[LodgeRopes]

Interesting synopsis cvb :)

JL senior used to start with round pen work and progress to sacking out, saddling then halter training but has now changed his method to Bridling first.
His reasoning behind this is that the horse has less pressure on him and so less stress by teaching certain ground movements with a bridle than with a rope halter. Cant say I agree with that entirely but I do think that JL juniors horse was certainly more clam and less stressed than the other two ( not saying thats because of the bit so much as JL's general overall approach to the horse)

I didn't see any sign, in any of the rope work, of any of the constriction of airways type techniques that were mentioned in a previous thread. If they were there, they weren't obvious.

Those comments were more directed at Clinton Anderson in the 2nd and third challenges. Someone did try to say that because the rope JL was using was around the neck that they were doing the same thing but like you I didnt see it...in fact I didnt see the rope in a position to make it possible to choke the horse.

BTW - the fourth challenge has just finished ( last weekend) and this time they had 4 competitors - one a woman ( for the first time!) and she won. Cant say I know anything about her or her methods but to be honest the whole competition stinks of older style breaking in than natural training!

[cvb]

well I was going to watch it over last night, as OH was out.... but instead I was down at the yard putting cold wraps on Fi's near fore :(

She is hopping lame :( Had a crazy moment in the field - seemed ok at the time but then went seriously sore... but back to the topic.

I commented to other half that they had started with the "big names" so I was curious how subsequent challenges would go, and it would just get more derivative, less easy to see differences etc (or in fact more extreme as the later clinicians tried to make their point and get noticed ?)

Interesting comment from OH was that he would rather watch the subsequent challenges as we get to know quite a lot about the "big names" but much much less about the others...

and I guess its an interesting point that with the "market" being dominated by certain names, how would any new ideas break through ?

anyone got any of the Road to the Horse material to share ?

[Skib]

cvb Interesting what you say about the use of the bit and bridle by JL.
I was out with an AI this morning who was Oh so critical when I described Rashid using bit and bridle to teach softening to self carriage. I explained how trainers like JL who had abandonned the bridle and reins had returned to using them and his explanation made sense to me. But the concept of anyone giving a release with the rein to signal to the horse, clearly was a foreign language to this instructor.
So, isnt the answer that each horseman works best with the gear he or she is used to and trusts in? Hence, one would expect JL to teach well with a bridle because it is a subject to which he himself has devoted time and thought. Those who are convinced of the Dually, work miracles using it. A trainer who intends to ride in a head collar or bitless (e.g Parelli) is hardly likely to prioritise teaching a horse to accept a bit and bridle.
I would like to see this tape one day. Did you notice a great difference in body language or attitude?

[cvb]

Skib

So, isnt the answer that each horseman works best with the gear he or she is used to and trusts in?
Yes - and if you phrase it the other way round its even more a "no brainer" i.e.

should a trainer work a horse in equipment he or she does NOT know thoroughly and trust ?

But I think with horsemen at this level, they have a broader collection of tools and techniques in their "box of tricks". So actually they will also vary the tool and/or technique for the horse. On the DVD, JL 'happened' to get a horse that did not have a problem with him bitting it. Tho whether that was really chance.... he was working its mouth with his fingers before he went for the bridle ;)

But if those trainers are teaching others, less experienced, they will probably go with the more common "tools" and not immediately pass on the more specialist ones (unless the "standard" tool won't work).

You do see Mark doing this - he'll try something out with a horse and rider. And then if it doesn't quite do the trick he'll stop and ask a question, and then say "ok, so how about this..." and lay something else out for them to try :D

If I don't manage to bring the DVD down (and steal finding the try from you ;) ) then I'll find some other way...

[Crystal Fire]

CVB, I'm guessing that Parelli was demoing his approach, as opposed to the less direct route used by his students :)

[99E]

Parelli himslef states that his home study programme is a POEPLE training programme, not a HORSE training programme.

That Pat Parelli uses a different route when starting colts than he asks his students to take when learning how to be "firm, fair and friendly" seems logical to me?!

Urs Heer, ****-instructor/Switzerland, said (at a clinic last autumn) that a PNH colt starting would start at liberty.

[cvb]

I think thats one of the "problems" with this event.

Is this colt starting and thats all it is ? Because that would dictate using the best approach for the horse - and does a hot day, an audience, and an immediate test really fit with that ?

Or is it a demo of the various approaches - which means that you want to use the medium of the colt starting to demonstrate your principles, practice etc

Are people going to go away from this and try and wrap a rope, spiral, around a colt and work him ??? Or are they going to realise that each person was demonstrating the most advanced levels of practice....

An ethical dilemma....

EDIT: just to restate that I am posting my opinions of the DVD and how it showcases the trainers... NOT my opinion on each trainers approach (at least I'm trying not to, some bias may creep in unintentionally). I'm actually a PNH student myself but personally didn't feel this was the best showcase of PPs skills that I have seen. Very interesting to see ANY colt starting however... its quite rare to get untouched colts like this in the UK/