should i force my horse to wear a bit?

[No_Angel]

i really want to start showing maddie, i do it for fun, but it would be lovely to actually get placed:o
at the moment she is bitless, and very happy, she pushes her head into her bridle. i did buy a rubber snaffle for her, but she tried to spit it out and take it off using the stable door, then she wouldnt let me out in back in her mouth.
i went bitless as she got very aggressive when i tried to tack her up with a bit.

do you think that i should make her wear a bit so i can show (ill only be using it a few times and on show day, and only for ridden showing), or do you think that as long as she was going nicely it wouldnt matter if she was bitless.
thanks
tasha

[cvb]

No angel

it depends on what rules the classes are run under - but I think they may have problems with bitless - especially if its one of the classes where the judge gets on and rides :eek:

If so, then it is a choice between showing and not showing ? Would you be happy to go bitless and not show ?

do you think that i should make her wear a bit

well you can probably "make" her - and she'll make sure everyone knows about it ;) (cue pictures of snoopy with a leash on :rolleyes: )

Or can you find a way to persuade her... re-bit her effectively. could the rubber snaffle have been too chunky for her ?

[No_Angel]

im thinking the rubber could be too chunky for her, i have a mullen mouth snaffle i might cover in that latex stuff, or try a happy mouth one. i tried a few bits before changing her to bitless, and she hated them all:(

if i didnt bit her, i would probably still show her, i just wouldnt have a chance, i took my cob and took him in a cob class bitless, we were placed 2nd, but i had snipings from people outside the ring after i left:(

i think im just getting a bit dispondant, its taking a long time to get maddie working how i would like her to bitless, except in canter, but she actually worked quite nicely in a bit. with my cob i transfered what he had learnt bitted to bitless, and he goes nicely, maddie just doesnt seem to be getting it tho

[Mehitabel]

bitless is not correct for showing.
try a narrow metal french link snaffle - the french link follows the shape of the mouth and tongue so lies better, and a narrow bit is better for a horse with a smaller mouth. rubber or latex can also drag on the lips and tongue, metal is smoother and slides across easier, there is no friction.

[No_Angel]

at local level bitless isnt such a big deal, i just keep thinking what if i did bit her and i suddenly had a showing star on my hands, i doubt it will happen tho, but i dont want to make her un happy, or her urn into a homicidle killer when i try to tack her up (she was almost sent back because she tried to kick me in the head and then dragged me down the road when i was trying to put her bitted bridle on)

[Mehitabel]

no - obviously if she feels that strongly about it then you should say fair enough. you can also try reaccustoming her to the bit by having it on a headpiece with no reins, and also your normal bitless - then she can get used to it again without rein aids.
you may find that once you get a bit that is physically comfy for her she will stop objecting.

[CMR]

Sorry, I have no advice about showing, but have you had her teeth checked?

[No_Angel]

yes, her teeth have been checked, she had a major job done just beofre i got her, then had then rasped again 6 weeks ago and i was told they are fine.

[Kanuma]

no angel, i agree with the french link snaffle idea.
one of mine hates snaffles in general, throws a tempertantrum when asked to work in one, but put a french link on him and he is ok (but he is much much happier in his ported pelham

[No_Angel]

i changed her bit to a full cheek french link when i was trying her out, she was slightly better than with a jointed snaffle, but still not completly happy.
ive dug out a few bits from my collection i think she might like, ive got a mullen mouth eggbutt, aurigan loose ring lozenge and an eggbutt training snaffle which is like a fench link except the link is ported, i shall go up later and try them on her and see what she thinks of them.

[Kanuma]

if she likes poll pressure then parhaps the ported pelham idea? works for one of mine as ive said and its worth a try, justy makesure you have 2 reins with it not one!
let us know how you get on.

[No_Angel]

i thought about a pelham, i have a mullen mouth upstairs. she hates to be forced tho, only time she ever played up with me and did a mini rear was when i tried a harbridge on her. a english hackamore is too much for her so im wondering if a pelham would be pushing it as she hates bits anyway.
i feel so guilty for even considering bitting her, i promised her id never do it again after i tried the rubber snaffle on her:(

[Kanuma]

try the pelham, in gentle hands it is no more severe then a snaffle! stan prefers the toungue room that the port gives him, the lack of nutcracker action and the poll pressure.
dont feel guilty, you are at least looking for one she is comfy in. and im sure you will be gentle. if you find the bit she is most comfy in and allow her time to settle into it she will be fine. incidently stan hates a mullen mouth, he hasnt got room in his mouth for it and his toungue

[cvb]

just watch the mouthpiece on a pelham as it may be as chunky as the rubber snaffle.

[KarinUS]

Could you show and be judged bitless but not be in competition for a ribbon?
They let you do that in dressage if you declare your status in your entry.
You can ride bitless and the judge scores and evaluates your performance but you won't get a ribbon. So if the others get a 70, 67 and 50 and you get a 63 you would know you'd be in third place but the person making the 50 would get the third place ribbon. It still would be worthwhile for you since you get the feedback and know how your performance compared to others?

[KateWooten]

No_angel... personally, and I know I'm not 'mainstream' in my thinking ... but I totally admire what you are doing in going bitless for the sake of your horses. I think you are forging wonderful relations with them, especially with Maddie, always trying to think it through from her perspective .. and that shines through. I think you should go ahead and show her as she is bit-free. You won't win - there'll always be the judges who have to say 'it's simply not done' (why not ?), 'these are the rules' (why are they ?), 'it has always been this way'... fair play to that line of 'reasoning' - if you want their opinion you'll have it - you'll be placed down the line. If you care about their opinion, that will hurt. I have far, far more respect for your opinion. I would care far more if you judged me on my horse, and said 'yes, they have a good thing going there', than if a judge said 'I can't see if they have a good thing there, I am blinded because the rules say wear a pelham'.

But what you will do, by showing bit-free, is change the world, just a little.

[Kanuma]

Karin its not realy possible in local showing as there are no score sheets for showing at local. and if you dont enter for a ribbon you get placed at the bottom of the line, so that the lineup is in the correct order.

[Kanuma]

kate, the rules are there so that the horses are judged on a level playing field and because showing is all about tradition and style. i hate to say it but most bitless bridles do not look good, they do nothing to flatter the horses head etc. and ones like hackamores are just evil in my oppinion, ive seen far more damage done with a hackamore then with anything else. i dont mind the other forms of bitless but in showing its a case of play by the rules or dont play at all

[No_Angel]

my bitless might actually be able to pass as a snaffle.

[Kanuma]

it could if it wasnt all fancyfied!! is that your one or an example of it? looks to western style for the showrinf, but its one of the prettier bitless!

[No_Angel]

thats just an example off the website.

[1 morejump]

I have the same problem with my 3 year old and bits but he is rapidly recovering from it. I can't show him in a bittless bridle beacuse we ride dressage and the USDF dosen't allow them. I think that regardless of what you ride in, a horse should be able to take a bit, you never know what might happen someday where you need to use a bit. It is also just manners and part of a well rounded horse. If you for some reason have to sell your horse and the new owner doesn't use a bittless she may get fed up with him if he refuses too much and may send him off to God only knows where.

With my horse, his former mom started him in a solid rubber bit and he hated it! It was way to chunky for him, so we have to start all over at square one. Start with just desensitizing her to it, rubbing all over. Find her favorite gooey food (apple butter, applesause, molasses, peanut butter is lance's fav. :D but I am told bananas work too) and slather the bit with it. (Take the bit off of the bridle so there is no association with anything else.) Just let her lick it all off and put more on, this may take a few days but she should eventually take it in her mouth, mine did. Always stop when she is still intrested so she wants it again next time. All you need here is a lot of patientce. Also, don't let her walk backward and try to take the bit and run off with it. Make a right angle with your arm and hold the bit there, that way she can associate the bit and you with good stuff. Do look into the happy mouth bits though.

[Esther.D]

Just a suggestion if you go down the bitted route - have you tried a straight bar or mullen mouth snaffle? Rupert hates ordinary jointed snaffles or ported bits, he is pretty good in a french link but even better in a straight bar or mullen mouth snaffle.

[No_Angel]

ive just caught up on this.
i tried to bit her, i used a mullen mouth eggbut snaffle and she wouldnt let me put it anywhere near her mouth, and she got violent, so i didnt bother, id much rather she be happy, and to be honest i dont understand why a horse should have to wear a bit at all, but thats another debate altogether!
i rode her in her headcollar and we had our first attempt at xc and she was fab, so she will never be bitted.

[tazzle22]

:D that is a very difficult question ..... whether to "force" a horse to wear a bit when it is happy bitless so we humans can get the chance of a bit of ribbon at a local show.

I have faced this question many times over the last six years Taz has been bitless ........ Luckily I am mostly interested in endurance and le trec / fun things where bitless is accepted . The most recent "tempation" has been in driving , wanting to take part in the social side including driving trials.

However for two main reasons I will continue to keep Taz in the headgear she is happy with.......... and keep showing as many people as possible. (We have quite a few allies now :D )

1. If a horse is comfortable and "controlable" what on earth should it matter what headgear it wears ....... it is accepted in polocrosse where lots ponies need to be fast and quick / accurate to turn :eek: .
My opinion in showing is that except for the tack and turnout classes perhaps all horses should be shown naked ........ that really IS a level playing field with nothing to take the judges eye off conformation !!!!!!!!!!!

2. If everyone that wants to keep horse bitless keeps ask, ask, asking then there is a chance rules might be changed ..... it IS happening in some disciplines ..... and if you dont ask you dont get !!!!! If we keep "giving in to convention" then nothing will change.


In the end however we must all go with our own "conscience" as to what we will compromise with as far as our horses go .........

edited to add.... you posted while I was writing this ..... seems like she really ias making her views clear .........

[Just.Jump]

at local level bitless isnt such a big deal, i just keep thinking what if i did bit her and i suddenly had a showing star on my hands, i doubt it will happen tho, but i dont want to make her un happy, or her urn into a homicidle killer when i try to tack her up (she was almost sent back because she tried to kick me in the head and then dragged me down the road when i was trying to put her bitted bridle on)

I'm skipping through all the other posts for the time being. You aren't going to have a star show horse unless the horse is either very talanted and controlled by you, or happy with her work. If she won't let you get near with a bit, she will not be happy doing her work, regardless.

I'm glad you've realised what your horse needs- just you watch, in a few years time more and more people will realise that bitless is for the best in so many cases. I imagine that eventually the bit will die out, as will shoes and tree'd saddles.

[1 morejump]

I imagine that eventually the bit will die out, as will shoes and tree'd saddles.

Humm, not quite sure I agree with you there. While I do hope that riding organizations will eventualy accept bitless (etc.) in shows and such I don't agree with you on the shoes part of it. I don't believe that shoes will die out ever. (barring a sudden shortage of steel ;) ) My horse is barefoot but I don't think it will ever go away.

[Just.Jump]

Really? Even with the growing numbers of barefoot supporters?

Remember that even the crazed supporters of metal (mouth, hooves, or.. elsewhere :rolleyes: ) will die sooner or later. Just like all of the big, clunky, gorgeous cars of the 50's and 60's. We move on to sleeker, smarter things.

Besides, in the long run the world would be just a teensy tiny slightly bit better off without the production of bits and shoes =P

(just color me green)

[hackedoff]

If there is ever to be change then someone has to drive it forward- those who benefit from maintaining a status quo that excludes a minority are making their club just that bit more exclusive. In the political arena this behaviour goes by a very ugly name.
I agree that a horse must be 'fit for purpose' but surely if it is going willingly and happily with a human on its back then it is fit for purpose? Why cant a standard bitless option be included? What is the reason?
BTW, in the 80's there was a very famous middle-distance runner who won olympic medals for Great Britain called Zola Budd.... and she ran barefoot. No-one suggested in order to be eligable to receive her medal she should put running shoes on. She won fair and square.

[1 morejump]

I think that if your horse's feet are in good condition, crack free, and solid, that you probably should go barefoot. It is a lot more normal and why waste the extra money on shoes if you don't need them. The part that I have problems with are the horses that need therapudic shoes, corrective shoes, extra support while compeating, have soft/ brittle feet aren't going to change. I have a friend who's horse must wear shoes because his feet are too soft and she jumps him so he needs the added support anyway.

My horse is barefoot, mostly out of convience, but also because he doesn't need them. You can support barefoot all you want but there are still horses that are going to require it due to conformational faults or owners who won't change.

[Kanuma]

most of my lot are bare foot, however ive been attempting to take stan barefoot for the last couple of years and for the last couple of years in May is feet have litteraly fallen appart. Stan competes in summer so haveing him hopping lame is not fair on him or me! im going to attempt it again this year (he has been barefoot since september) but at the first sign that his feet are going he is getting shoes on again

[No_Angel]

my lot are barefoot, doesnt cost me much less than having 2 shod and 2 trimmed.
most people keep their horses shod because they dont want to be inconvinienced with not being able to ride and compete and dont want to take the time to condition (i can name a few round here:rolleyes: ) even if it is the best for the horse.
kanuma- do you get yours barefoot trimmed or just pasture trimmed? you wouldnt think it but barefoot trimming really does make a difference.
ambers feet used to crumble when she lost a shoe, now shes got beautiful feet, its helped her arthritis aswell.

[Kanuma]

i dont know, my farrier does it. he actively encourages people to go barefoot though and has won awards for his remedial farriery.
pride, harvey and rian are completely fine barefoot but stans hoof wall crumbles away. ive had him go so bad that the farrier struggled to find wall to put the nails in. (3 hours before he managed to get shoes on his back feet, took 20 mins to do his front which hadnt crumbled). he said they were some of the worst feet hed seen. stan went sound 2 days after shoeing and was happy as a sandboy hairing round the field with his shoes one, where as without he was shuffleing and unwilling to move at all. It doesnt appear to matter how his feet are trimmed they just crumble in may time nobody is quite sure why!

[Just.Jump]

Hmmmm. Remedial trimming/shoeing doesn't always include the wild/barefoot horse trim though. I think that when breeding, people should pay attention to the feet- besides laminitus history. To make a comparison, the mustangs have amazing feet over varied terrain and an obviously lacking diet and health status (I would imagine they have a fair bit of worms in those herds, etc). However, along with the survival of the fittest, I believe that a big factor of amazing mustang feet is that obviously the poor-hooved don't make it, meanign that only the horses with healthy, strong feet lasted long enough to contribute to the breed.

So in short, if you ever consider breeding, it might make a difference to the foal if you look up a sire that has excellent feet as well. Just like people who have brittle nails, I suppose.


As per the needing to be driven forward, you qalso have to take into account that peoples preferences change. Afterall, women used to wear constricting girldes (or whatever they wore back then, I'm not an expert) and waistlines past their belly buttons. Now obviously there are disgustingly low pants and skirts available. Granted, for the most part none of this is a fashion statement, but over time the face of riding will change in one way or another.

[Kanuma]

personaly im going to stick with my farrier and putting shoes on stan, i dont have the time to allow him to get over the lame stages and im certainly not going to allow someone to come and hack at his feet untill they bleed as some trimmers seem to advocate. The latest theory about stans feet is that because they start crumbleing when the weather dries up that his hooves are lacking moisture, but no amount of soaking and waterbased hoof oils corrects this. Stans feet would probably stand up very well in the place his breed was from, but they cant cope in the dry paddocks that i put him in to prevent his sweetitch.
Im always going to be an advocate of doing exactly what the horse needs and although id prefer him to be barefoot he needs shoes, so he gets shoes!
Its just like bitless bridles confuse stan, he dislikes them imensely and actively searches for a contact that you just cant give him in a bitless. thus the bitless is not an option for stan however if anouther horse hates a bit then that horse will go bitless totaly up to the horse for me.

[tazzle22]

If there is ever to be change then someone has to drive it forward- those who benefit from maintaining a status quo that excludes a minority are making their club just that bit more exclusive. In the political arena this behaviour goes by a very ugly name.
I agree that a horse must be 'fit for purpose' but surely if it is going willingly and happily with a human on its back then it is fit for purpose? Why cant a standard bitless option be included? What is the reason?

well I have taken another little step in trying to challenge the status quo

I took part ( HC) in an indoor driving trial today with permission of the chairman of the club. Ok we took it VERY slow and steady to got loads time penalties ... but dressage was presentable, only knocked three cones down .... and we left all obstacles standing :D

So even though she was steerable and controlled ...... I was still told that if I want to compete properly I will have to put a bit in !!!!!!!!!! The probability that putting a bit back in Taz's mouth will lead to a regression to a resistant , runaway horses seems irrelevant.. My response is that if no one ever challenges nothing ever changes ....... people challenged bearing reins and they are not seen today in driving ..... despite once being common !!!

Bitless bridles are becoming accepted in some disciplines ........ as more and more exposure is given surely eventually others will open up ???



Several local people have confessed to me that when they first heard I rode / drive Taz bitless they had dopubts ....... even though I was mad :eek:

but now that they have ridden out with me and driven with me ....... they now acknowledge that she is as safe (or safer) than many bitted horses..... . That is not to say she always aquiesses immediatley to what I want or totally ignores all exciting stimuli ( like wanting to join racehorse careering round field as we pass). She might not always want to stand still ....... but she is "controlled" by the bridle just as a my friends are with the bits.

[Crystal Fire]

Good on you tazzle22 :)
I agree with you completely Kanuma, do what is best for the individual horse. That's what I do with mine, however challenging it is for me personally sometimes.
What does frustrate me though is when we start to talk about barefoot and it's instantly associated with periods of lameness and feet getting hacked about until they bleed. That makes me despair. Also if we start to equate a piece of metal in a horse's mouth with control.
I've got horses that have always been barefoot. I've got horses that have transitioned to barefoot with no lameness or problems, and I've got one horse who was a little bit "footy" - but as he wasn't doing that great shod, because of underslung heels and bruised soles, in his case it was worth trying the barefoot option. And it's worked out for him, if not his shoes would be back on. I have used several different styles of barefoot trimmer, because choice can be limited. A farrier, a KC trimmer and, shock horror - a Strasser trimmer! To date the only person who's ever made my horse's feet bleed was an idiot vet.
I think your mind, like an umbrella, is most effective when it's open.

[Kanuma]

oh mines open alright. i have nothing against barefoot at all but it just will not suit stan. for the last 3 years ive tried to take him barefoot and come may each year his feet litteraly fall appart (the wall falls off) and he becomes not just lame but hopping lame. Its just not fair on him to do that to him and its not fair on me when i keep him to compete on him and i cant even ride him because he wont walk on hard ground.
Im not tarring all barefoot trimmers with the same brush, but i do not feel safe giveing over the care of one of the most important areas of my horse to someone who has done a couple of days training or something simmilar. Id much rather go for the person with the indepth knowlege of the hoof and the formal qualifications, that way atleast i have some comeback if they make a mess of it!
Harvey my little welshie has never had a pair of shoes on him since i got him. Rian has only had some on to sort out some massive problems he has with his feet and they are now off again. Pride has had a couple of sets of shoes of in the 8 years ive had him, mainly because his feet dont grow much and if he gets a crack unless we put shoes on to hold his feet together for 6 months then the crack will not go away for years. but at the moment he is barefoot and happy.
i dont associate a bit with control however the horses i have like thier bits and im affraid that as i compete at high levels i probably wouldnt consider buying a horse that wont accept a bit at all as i couldnt show it at the levels i wanted to.

[Just.Jump]

to someone who has done a couple of days training or something simmilar.

Even the crazy Strasser guys have to go to a yearlong program to be deemed professionals now ^.~

Out of curiousity, what do you show in?

[Kanuma]

Stan does the M&M's &veterans, HArvey does M&M SHP & SP classes and veterans, Pride does SP, SHP and vetarnas. Rian (if we can get him to the show) does arab classes.

[hackedoff]

well I have taken another little step in trying to challenge the status quo


So even though she was steerable and controlled ...... I was still told that if I want to compete properly I will have to put a bit in !!!!!!!!!! The probability that putting a bit back in Taz's mouth will lead to a regression to a resistant , runaway horses seems irrelevant.. My response is that if no one ever challenges nothing ever changes ....... people challenged bearing reins and they are not seen today in driving ..... despite once being common !!!

Bitless bridles are becoming accepted in some disciplines ........ as more and more exposure is given surely eventually others will open up ???


Hey well done Taz :D you just show what nonsense it all is :D My analogy with Zola Budd seems to have spun this topic OT :o I was trying to draw a parallel between her running with no trainers and someone competing/showing with no bit.
If a bit gives 'control and refinement etc etc' and I am not using one surely I am handicapping myself willingly and therefore I cant possibly get as good a score in say a dressage test as someone on a bitted horse. If these rules are not just about prejudice why not let me fail the 'proof of the pudding' test? A standard bitless option is surely the way forward.

[Kanuma]

hacked off the main problem is how to score them, dressage has the bit rules so that everyone starts on a RELATIVELY level playing field. Id love it if i could ride dressage in my pelham but im not allowed as it is considered a stronger bit, even to ride novice tests in a double is not allowed.

[hackedoff]

ahh but does everyone ride in exactly the same bit or is there a choice? While I totally agree in a level playing field surely for example a x-under bridle could be included as an alternative to a plain snaffle.......when I ride bitless I hear a lot of talk of 'control' but I have no arena to prove that 'control' is in place. Surely the rules governing the use of what recieved wisdom labels 'harsh' bits is to allow the training of the horse and riding skills of the rider to be shown off not the ability to slap on metal and gadgets. While Kanuma I'm sure rides competantly and sympathetically in a Pelham in some hands that could get ugly :(
I do know someone in the same poition as NoAngel. she rides a horse who goes beautifully in a Dr Cook but wants to do dressage with him this summer at local level. So the bit has been dusted off..........

[Kanuma]

i think the whole anti bitlesss thing stems from hackamores which in the wrong hands do a hell of alot of damage (ive seen it done and been powerless to stop it) the dr cook etd are relatively new and it will take time for them to be seen as a common example of the bitless bridle.
At the moment whe you say bitless the majority of horsey people are going to think hackamore.
I agree you can have control in a bitless, and i admire the people who can do dressage without any tack (mainly for thier ability to stay on in trot :D). But untill things like the Dr cook are recognised by the majority then it isnt going to happen. Also trying to draft rules to govern what bitless you can and cant ride in would be a nightmare

[No_Angel]

i dont think that saying what bitless you could ride in would be a nightmare, would be the same as bits, as in you can ride in this hanging cheek snaffle but no this ported one.

[hackedoff]

But untill things like the Dr cook are recognised by the majority then it isnt going to happen. Also trying to draft rules to govern what bitless you can and cant ride in would be a nightmare
I dont agree. I think it just takes a few people with the will to make it happen. After all there are a zillion different kind of bits and the rules have been set!

[Spritzy]

Try speaking to the lady (sorry can't remember her name) at neueschule bits http://www.neueschulebits.com/

She is fantastic and has really helped mewith my section D who is very hard to bit. She is willing to chat for hours to help you solve the problem. Definitely worth a go in my opinion.

[Kanuma]

thing is would you allow nose pressure, poll pressure, a combination of both or neither? and to what extents are you willing to go to check them and the pressure they exert. then once youve got the bitless legislation in your going to get complaints from people like me who want to do it in a pelham or a gag.
would you allow those stirng halter ones? would insurance cover it? do they encourage the same outline or is the outline encouraged lower? how would you mark it if it is lower doesnt seem fair to have one set of rules for the bitless and one set of rules for the bitted then judge them against each other.
Perhaps bitless people could start by setting up a bitless dressage series? it has worked for the veteran horse society and their Veterans only dressage no horse under 15 is allowed to compete and the ages are split it prevents the oldies from going up against the more elastic and free younger ponies.
it would probably be easier to legislate, but its going to take some one to get up and set it all up!

[Crystal Fire]

LOL how complicated is all this? I hope they will allow competing in the "string" ones someday, as a lot of my mates ride that way. I'm insured to hack out by the way, have a statement lodged with my insurance policy.

[Kanuma]

yes but organisers of competitions have to hold insureance and haveing run a RC show for a while i can tell you the insureance people stick silly rules in there like all stallions have to be bitted and boxed after their class or not allowed on the field at all! insurance for organisers is silly high already, would bitless make it too high?

[Crystal Fire]

I know Kanuma. It shouldn't make any difference at all really should it? It's the ability of the rider that makes things safe or not, not a lot to do with metal in the gob or rope around the nose.
I've never been competetive, and this just puts me off even more. I'm not against riding in a bit, and one of mine goes best that way, I just believe in choice.
I took my Arabian to a show once when she was a yearling, wearing just her rope halter and 12ft line, we first walked a mile up a road quite busy with show trailers and lorries. We went for a look around and didn't enter any classes. I'm proud to say that she was much more in control than many that were wearing bits, and although she found it all very exciting, she kept some slack in her rope. Spectating at shows I think some handlers (not all obviously) use the extra force they can exert on the horse's mouth as a substitute for good training and handling.
I watched a heavy horse show in the summer, all the handlers were holding the horse on a short lead rein, with bits, which meant that as the horses were so tall they were pulling the horse in on them. This they attempted to remedy by either poking the horse on the shoulder with a stick or elbow, or pushing at their faces. The poor horses had nowhere to go. My little nephew is steeped in NH to his bones and kept asking interesting questions ina small and penetrating voice like "Why doesn't that lady let her horse walk properly Aunty Karen?" - much to the amusement of the people around us :D

[tazzle22]

when I ride bitless I hear a lot of talk of 'control' but I have no arena to prove that 'control' is in place.

quite .......

how on earth as we supposed to demonstrate this one ..... get someone to deliberately make our gee gees bolt to see if we can stop ??????????

How "exciting" can we make the environment to show we "have control" ...... My instructor witnessed us passing a racehorse going bananas in field not 5 metres form Taz .... did she want to join in ????? of course she did .... did she ............ NOOOOOOOOOOOO ........ because I "said NO".

She does not always want to stop at junction if there are no cars coming ....... but will do so with a tossing head messaging her "displeasure" :) Is that sufficient "control" ???



and if your horse is "obedient" / compliant / relaxed ...... you are "lucky its so steady and doesn't spook " :rolleyes:


Here are rather fuzzy pics of Taz form the video ..... totally "out of control "


http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b89/tazzle22/obstacles1.jpg


and she is soo polite she even salutes the judge at the end of the dressage ;)


http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b89/tazzle22/tazsalutesjudge.jpg


and another just showing off :rolleyes:


http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b89/tazzle22/dressage3.jpg

[hackedoff]

thing is would you allow nose pressure, poll pressure, a combination of both or neither? and to what extents are you willing to go to check them and the pressure they exert. then once youve got the bitless legislation in your going to get complaints from people like me who want to do it in a pelham or a gag.
would you allow those stirng halter ones? would insurance cover it? do they encourage the same outline or is the outline encouraged lower?

My suggestion was to introduce a standard bitless option not an organisational nightmare!:D And no everyone should be marked the same under the same criteria for the same end product.

[tazzle22]

I think Kanuma if you can make rules to choose a certain range of bits form the hundreds available .... I am sure it would take far less time to come up with rules for the relatively few bitless bridles there are. Of course someone will always feel left out ..... like you do with a pelham for example ......... but you are just as free to challenge the rules as we are. Rules evolve ..... that is the manner of things ....... I doubt we abide by the origional rules of any of the disciplines...

[Kanuma]

My suggestion was to introduce a standard bitless option not an organisational nightmare!:D And no everyone should be marked the same under the same criteria for the same end product.

ah but if you say you can ride in a dr cook then the people who use the string halters are going to object and how do you decide which bridle is the one to allow?

the bits chosen are because of thier actions and certain pressures or points of pressure are not allowed and any bit that uses those points of pressure are against the rules so how would you do it for bitless? what points of pressure would you allow and what wouldnt you?

dont get me wrong, i support the whole bitless thing and think you should be allowed to but it would be a legistical nightmare and as BD already seems to struggle policeing its current bitting rules, it would throw everything into chaos!

[chev]

BTW, in the 80's there was a very famous middle-distance runner who won olympic medals for Great Britain called Zola Budd.... and she ran barefoot. No-one suggested in order to be eligable to receive her medal she should put running shoes on. She won fair and square.

Until she ran in the Olympics (was it the Olympics?) when she was forced to wear shoes. And with, if I remember right, fairly disastrous consequences (wasn't an Amercian runner spiked by Zola in some way?). All the more poignant....

Re barefoot and no need for shoes at all - I can't see it happening. Wild horse trims are fantastic, and yes, wild horses manage mostly fine for their (relatively short) lives with no shoes. But the horses on which the trims are based also have scores for 8 - 10 for condition, whereas, because of the ground and environmental and geographical factors here, in the UK about the best condition score you can hope for is 6 or 7. Absolutely great for most 'ordinary' horses in work, but for a lot of competition or riding school horses in serious work they simply don't cope barefoot. It's because of the way the foot works; the ground here is simply too soft to condition the foot in the way that wild horses' feet are, so it's far more common to find that when a horse reaches a certain level, they don't cope without shoes.

Riding schools are a case in point; ponies there have several variables to cope with. Turnout on soft ground, lots of work on school surfaces and usually an element of hacking too. Although the level of work done tends to keep feet worn, it doesn't usually condition the feet well enough to cope with all the stress.

A good trimmmer will be able to keep most horses sound and healthy with no shoes; but it is highly unlikely that all horses would ever be able to cope barefoot.

Re bitting; I have rebitted one mare with similar reactions with a thin French link smeared with treacle. She wasn't inately unhappy with bits though - just had a couple of terrible bitting experiences which put her off. Once she found that nothing was going to hurt again, she was fine.

I had a gelding who had an accident bitted that put him off bits. he never wore a bit again. He was never going to be happy bitted, so we didn't bother. I'd be guided by Maddie.

As regards showing... unless the rules actually state the horse must be bitted, or you can't face being told you should have a bit in, I'd have a go. The more people do turn up bitless, the more chance there is of change. I have this vague hope that one day an entire class will arrive bitless... :D

[hackedoff]

ah but if you say you can ride in a dr cook then the people who use the string halters are going to object and how do you decide which bridle is the one to allow?

How did the dressage bods decide on a snaffle? Didnt the pelham users protest? Was there not griping from the gag-brigade? Dissent from the Dr Bristol Divas?:D (couldnt resist sorry)

[Kanuma]

I believe that at the lower levels (before medium) that curb pressure is not allowed nor is too much poll pressure as you get from a gag. Im pretty sure the Dr bristol is a driveing bit? but dont quote me on that!

[hackedoff]

Er that was a joke! Alliterative wordplay- read it aloud :)

[03kieranej]

I think your horse is going to have to have a bit sooner or later. A meathod which i use is to attach the bit to a headcoller. You can buy thing to join them in lots of places as they are designed to lead strong horses. Also you should get an apple flavoured hapy mouth bit or smear one with jam. This way your horse will be happier to take the bit. You should leave your horse alone in its stable for an hour or so so they realise the bit will do them no harm and they can still eat and drink. After a while you should progress to using a bridle instead.
Good luck!

[Esther.D]

Im pretty sure the Dr bristol is a driveing bit? but dont quote me on that!

Just o/t..it isn't :) Not sure where it came from. The only driving snaffle is the Wilson snaffle with the double rings, everything else is a curb (or has the potential to be depending on what setting it is on).

[chev]

I think your horse is going to have to have a bit sooner or later.

Why? :confused:

There's absolutely no reason why a horse *has* to have a bit at all. I have had horses who were never bitted (ok, so I didn't compete where being bitless was an issue) and they were fine. I know of several showjumpers who competed at a high level and were not bitted.

The only reason a horse would *have* to be bitted is to compete in discliplines where it is required; for example, I wouldn't be allowed to take my Welsh colt in the ring without a bit under breed society rules. In that case, if the horse really disliked bits, I just wouldn't compete. No big deal.

[alfi-social]

Hi, Our Exmoor is in a very mild straightish Nathe plastic unjointed snaffle but is still not very happy in it. He has also tried another of our horses German silver
double jointed slim snafflr with a lozenge instead of a normal French Link_ supposed to sit more comfortably.
The trouble is I think that he has a very fleshy mouth and a bit thick tongue
so there just isn't enough room for a bit.
The Myler people have suggested a few to try (eg wide barrel ported comfort snaffle) and I think that is the way I will go as they design bits to be comfortable in a horses mouth depending on the shape of the individual mouth.

They are very expensive but for £5 a time you cab try as many as you like
and return them if no great improvement.(Derby house site myler bit bank)
A few horses I have heard prefer a comfortable bit to a bitless bridle
BWs Fiona