Flatwork critique

[Floob]

hi,
seeing as my instructor is useless and Im stopping lessons with her I would like some pointers to work on until we can get another instructor.
So fire away, you can rip me to shreds I don't mind, just want to know what Im doing wrong and how to correct it.

Ok pictures

Walking
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23/floobaloob/Tarquin/IMG_4224.jpg

starting to leg yield
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23/floobaloob/Tarquin/IMG_4246.jpg

trotting
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23/floobaloob/Tarquin/IMG_4209.jpg

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23/floobaloob/Tarquin/IMG_4499.jpg

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23/floobaloob/Tarquin/IMG_4266.jpg

cantering
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23/floobaloob/Tarquin/IMG_4502.jpg

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23/floobaloob/Tarquin/TarquinCantering-3.jpghttp://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23/floobaloob/Tarquin/Tarquincantering-1.jpg (don't critique these 2)

Sorry about the quality of the pictures, indoor schools are rubbish places to take them even with flash.

Thanks

[michie]

You're leg is a little too far forward. I would get it a little more behind the girth.

[nutkin]

in the first and last big pic your leg is a little far forward but in the other pics it looks to be in the right place. You have a nice straight line running through your shoulder to your hip and through to your heel.The only real noticeable thing is you need to bring your elbows back to your sides. You look to have a really forward and active pace in that trot pic under the pole one. Well done!

[Afellpony]

I would just say that in the second picture where you'r facing the camera, your stirrups look uneven. I agree that you need to raise your hands a fraction. Apart from that, fine.

[Sam and Blake]

i think you should shorten your stirrups a couple of holes.when you stand up in your stirrups you should be able to see a little bit of daylight between your bum and the saddle and when your feet are out of the stirrupss the bottom of the stirrup iron should be where your ankle is.apart from that you have a really good shoulder, hip, heel alignment.also try lifting your hands up a bit, bringing your elbows closer to your sides and relax your fingers.other than that you look great!!:D

[Floob]

Nutkin - ahh the elbows must be back, at least I don't think they chicken during canter. Hadn't noticed that before, thank you.
About the activeness of that trot, I seem to have the most active cob in the world. lucky me!

Afellpony - Im not sure, but i think I was establishing the bend before asking him to move over leg yielding. So I think that my inside leg is further back, they shouldn't be uneven, stirrups are always on the same hole at each side and I swop them round regularly.

Sam and Blake - I do get told off for riding a bit too long sometimes, and I was already riding a hole shorter than my relaxed hacking length. I think that the pole picture might be a bit deceiving because my fleece comes below my bum. I will see when I next ride, but have always ridden with my stirrup length so that my stirrups come just below my ankle bone when riding. Will get mum to take pictures of normal, I will put my stirrups up a hole and compare.

Thanks everyone for your nice comments so far, and the useful ones. Already lots to think about and try

[Laura+Phantom]

I don't think your stirrups are too long at all, I personally find that having the bottom of the stirrup iron level with my ankle is too short, I have it level with my foot! As long as you feel comfortable i'm not aware that its a bad thing to ride long when schooling.

A couple of things I noticed is that in the first pic, you're jamming your heels down a bit too far - I do that sometimes, and as the others have pointed out, your lower leg has come forward.

Mainly though, I think your reins are too short and you've got your hands on his neck...I think it would be an improvement if you could lengthen your reins a bit but bring your hands back towards you and carry them off his neck. He looks a bit restricted because of this.

Other than that, you're looking good, and doing a good job, he's lovely and active :)

[LouHarvey]

Your leg is too far forward, your toes turn out and in the second picture you are either collapsed to one side or riding with uneven stirrups.

You have a tendency to tip your shoulders forward and look as though you are gripping with your knees. It could be that you are riding too long and 'reaching' for your stirrups, thus creating tension through the joints in your leg.

Also, there is almost no bend in your elbow and in most of the pictures your wrists look tense and 'set' rather than being soft and relaxed.

[Floob]

Anyone else

[Tootsie4U]

Actually, I dont think your reins are too short. I *do* think it appears that way because you have a tack problem. That saddle is waaaaaayyyyyy too far forward on his shoulder. You're basically sitting on his neck and that makes it look like there's a really short distance between you and his mouth (thus the short reins). Also, that flash is really low on his mouth. Be careful, it will restrict his breathing.

The only thing I can really tell is that I dont get much of a 'relaxed' and 'wrapped around the barrel' feeling from the photos. Think about opening the space between your thighs while still keeping your calves on the barrel. If I were to draw it, your legs should look like an upside down U and not like an upside down V (as I think they allude to in the photos). By opening your thigh, you create more room for your horse to lift his back into.

[Floob]

So is creating U shape with legs and having toes stick out better than V shape with toes in? at the moment it seems to be one or the other when I ride.
His flash is now gone so no problems there anymore. it wasn't restricting his breathing as such, but we had to be careful. The flash strap wouldn't sit any higher at the back

[Tootsie4U]

Toes still need to face forward. You need to train your hips to open this way. Remember, its not so much the position as it is creating an inviting space for him to lift and use his back.

Also wanted to add that your instructor can't be all that rubbish because you're a decent rider!

[Floob]

Had a really good instructor before that though.
I feel as if I have gotten nowhere for the last year, my mum standing at the side watching is more help! Thats the way I have been trying to improve, other people's comments and by watching exactly what other people do when they ride and how the horse responds.

Thanks for all your comments so far

[Just.Jump]

As has been said:

-Your ear-hip-heel alignment is off

-The saddle is grossly far forward. There is a reason as to why pommels feature cut-back styles- because that is generally where the wither goes! If in doubt, look at it realistically- how well can a horse move when your leg is resting on the great part of his shoulder blades? Answer: not nearly as well if he had free range of motion

-While some say your hands are bad, and some don't mind them, I think you need to concentrate on lowering them. You've got them halway up his neck in some pictures, regardless of how long his neck actually is- the hands should be resting quietly near/above the base of the neck where they join with the withers.

-The reins aren't particularly short- however, you aren't getting any result with that rein pressure, which is the foster for heavy hands. The only reaosn to have that much bit contact is to have vertical give and flexion in the neck, and only the blurry blue-tinged picture has the general idea of that. So unless you are pushing him through the bit and he is acknowledging you by lowering his head and collecting his neck, give him more release. The whole point of rein pressure in general riding is to get the horses neck into a specific form and have them reach back to find a point where they are no longer resting on the bit, but the reins are still short enough to control to horse if anything should happen. It's a bit different for jumping on, say, a green horse when they need all the guidance and reinforced steering they can get to avoid dropping shoulders out and refusing.

-and, as was said, your toes are sticking out. I imagine the reason being is that you are still learning to balance and therefor gripping with the legs. In reality, a balanced rider can get on pretty much any horse bareback, get to know them, and then take the horse through all three paces- unless the horse needs schooling/reassurance, the rider will be able to stay on simply by following the motion of the horse with the hips, not the legs. When I ride and the horse is not falling out/needing to be reminded they haven't been asked to stop, my legs are completely loose. Granted, you can't do it like that in a saddle, but still. No need to grip with the legs! That will onyl urge the horse on anyway ^.~

[nutkin]

Just jump the hands do not need to be lower.They are a little far up the horses neck yes but by bringing the elbows back to where they should be the hands should sit in the correct place.I do agree about the toes sticking out a little which would cause the effect of gripping with the calf muscle which is incorrect, however I do think that most of the time the rider is in pretty much alignment.If you was to remove her horse she would land on her feet. The saddle does appear to be a little forward but this could be an illusion as I note there is quite a big numnah underneath the saddle.

[Floob]

Just a question,
some of you said that I am gripping with my knees, i think that part of the problem is the knee rolls. My knees hang just below the knee roll so any small tension causes my knee to be 'jammed in'. i can't explain it very well.
So would removing the knee rolls alltogether for flatwork be an option?

The numnah is one cut for a jumping saddle, but it is the best one we have at the moment because it is quite thin so doesn't change the fit of the saddle

So if toes out always equals gripping with legs then I must be gripping with my legs at a halt bareback, I don't think I can get more relaxed
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23/floobaloob/Other%20Horses/IMG_3756.jpg

or here in walk
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23/floobaloob/Tarquin/IMG_4544.jpg

I am confused by your comment about cut back pommels Just.Jump , his saddle always sits behind his withers so there is no need for a cut back pommel?

Keep them coming it is like a virtual riding lesson!

[eventerbabe]

Hi Floob :)

i agree that your leg does seem to come forward out of the ear/hip/ankle alignment. work doing exercises to open up your hips and riding without stirrups will help with that thought.

Your reins seem awfully short, so as a consequence you have quite straight arms with little bend at the elbow.

i can't decide if the saddle is too far forward or whether your horse could take a larger saddle......its not clear from the photos. i don't think its too far forward. has your horse a particularly long back? in old piccies of my pony her saddle is sitting in a similar way, but thats coz it was a 16 inch saddle and she takes a 5ft9 in rugs, despite being only 13.3hh. so her back is quite long.

only other point would be that i'd shorten your stirrups a smidge, maybe only a hole ot 2. they look a wee bit long to me. as regards comments about your toes, you don't look to be gripping or jamming with your knees. see what happens when you shorten your stirrups up. my toes used to turn out but that was from years of ballet training when i was a small kid!

lovely horse btw!!

[cvb]

floob - wow look at the difference in your leg in the photos you just posted !!

In the very first photo there does appear to be some tension - the heel is quite a lot lower than the toe and I think that may be behind the "leg forward" comments others have made. But in the last ones, your hip and leg are much more relaxed, long, wrapping round :D

In teh second of the initial photos I find myself wondering which WAY you wre aiming to leg yield - the flexion (and your weight) suggest one way but your eyeline suggest the other ?

In the trotting pole photo you seem to have raised your hand with your rise, breaking the line - but I am wondering whether there was a mental thought that you had to "lift" him over the pole ? (he's too heavy, it won't work ;) ). Tjis perhaps comes through in the last big fuzzy canter photo - just a hint of you trying to lift him ;) You can't, it comes to come from him, and from him shifting the weight off his forehand and engaging his quarters.

he looks like a lovely chap :D

[Floob]

cvb - Im trying to work towards that leg position in the last 2 pictures, but can only manage it in walk and halt so far and my toes are still out!

Looking back at the first picture I see where you are coming from. I sometimes catch myself in halt with my lower leg way too far forward and completely off the horses sides which i then have to conciously correct. I think it might be the same thing but in walk. He does tend to walk with a really fast powerful walk and likes to speed up coming up onto the straight so i might've been tensing up and anticipating. I'll be able to work on that now.
I think I might 'brace' against the stirrups just because I can, I don't do it without stirrups and let my legs hang, but then get told off for having my toes lower than my heels.

Leg yielding picture, is this one better eye line wise? (except that I am now looking down for some reason)
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23/floobaloob/Tarquin/IMG_4244.jpg

Hehe about the trying to lift him up. Lets just say i don't do it conciously! And yes it might be the poles making me do that. In the canter picture we were still doing poles on a circle so i might still have been 'thinking' about lifting him over them

eventerbabe - actually he has quite a short back, or more a short ribcage and quite long loins in comparison. Saddler actually said that a 16.5" saddle was the smallest that would fit him comfortably because of this.
He is 15.1hh and takes a 6ft6 rug, but thats mainly because he is chunky and quite round with a big bum.

Sorry for the long replies I just want to find out exctly what I am doing wrong and why and how to correct it.

thanks again everyone

[cvb]

Floob

yes the eyeline is much better - but that looks like quite a lot of flexion so you might try asking for less ? Its surprising - you ask for less.... and get more ;) because with a lesser flexion they can often step across and forward better :)

[teapot]

your heels look like they are forced far too down. Just relax and do a lot of work in your jump stirrups in a hovering trot (no rising) They then should come down naturally.

With your elbows, try bringing them back and closer to your side. Will make your overall position look very nice.

Otherthan that you've got the basics, just need to sort out the minor problems

[Floob]

cvb- I wasn't asking for much flexion at all. this is actually one of our better attempts as he tends to fall out through his outside shoulder.

Thanks teapot, will be focussing on leaving the heels, i tend to only force them down when I tense up slightly. I will need to just relax I think (can do it bareback, just not with a saddle), I already do quite a bit of hovering trot ie a light seat in trot and canter to work on my lower leg position for jumping.

[cvb]

floob - try doing leg yield this way... ride across the diagonal. So say you are changing from right rein to left across the diagonal.. ride a few strides straight and then use the left leg, at the girth, to ask for leg yield to the right.

Keep looking at the far quarter marker where the diagonal ends. If you lose balance either ride straight forward along the diagonal and then ask again, or ride a 10m circle left, ride straight a few strides, and ask again.

Uts a great exercise as there is no wall to fall into or away from, and there is a feeling for the rider that they are already going sideways (across the diagonal). Its also great for checking straightness as you can tell really quickly if the shoulders or quarters are leading.

[Floob]

ooh that sounds like a really good exercise, will definetly try it, after the picture was taken we started trying leg yielding from the centre line and it was a lot better than from the 3 quarter line, but this exercise sounds better by far.
Thanks

ps do you want to come and give us lessons?

[Just.Jump]

The reason I say that stuff about the pommel is that it looks like you've got the saddle resting over top of the withers incorrectly- reason being that your legs are resting over his shoulders.

Granted, this woman has insanely short legs, but,
http://www.dennhardt.com/CountryPleasureFarms/Images/Star/Bsprings-Star%20English.jpg

Even if they were longer, they would not be going over the horses shoulder. Ignore her position, as it's not particularly one I would envy.

[Tootsie4U]

Floob, the best way for you to see for yourself that your saddle is too far forward is to see how many finger widths you can fit between the saddle (flap) and the tip of his shoulder blade.

The ideal is three finger widths but from what your photos portray, it looks like your saddle is at least three finger widths onto his shoulder.

Having a saddle fit like that does many things; all of which aren't good.

First, it'll constrict the movement of his shoulder. He wont be able to swing easily and his reach will be affected.

Secondly, having the saddle rest on the wither will tip the saddle's seat out of balance. Therefore affecting your position.

Thirdly, it will pinch more since its not designed to rest on that part of his body which is wider and more rigid. You'll get a hollow horse who can be head high and reluctant to use his back due to the discomfort.

Im sure you know this already so give the finger thing a try and see what you find.

btw, Just Jump. I may not envy her position all that much (well, I might now after having a few months off of riding) but I do envy how she can get her horse to go so long and low! Very nice!

[Just.Jump]

Yeah, to be honest, I mainly chose that picture for the fact that other than her legs aren't too far forward, the horse is freakishly gorgeous! Plus, her rein length is nice for the head and neck position- not one tight firm line of rein from the bit to the riders hands, which I what I really really like to see in english- short enough for contact, but not constantly pulling- the horse here has learnt that to lower it's head means it will find release from the reins, meaning that both the horse and hands are relaxed.

Hence I said that for this critique, the reins are too short and the hands are too high. This rider has her hands down and quiet, and the reins are long enough to make a connection when the horse lifts it's head incorrectly, yet just right so that it is comfortable when it is in the correct frame. Apparently not too many english riders operate on this though (from this board alone), however.

In my mind, correct is comfortable for the horse, incorrect is uncomfortable. The rien pressure shown in the critique does not look effective or comfortable- head position is niether tucked+collected/ down and relaxed, so really, it's dead weight.

[Floob]

Thats one of the reasons for stopping lessons with instructor would you believe? She kept telling me to shorten my reins!

I'll have to do another post in a month or 2 just to see if I can make a difference.

[Tootsie4U]

I think though, that the rider is specifically being asked for that movement. She's almost on the buckle and the horse certainly isnt 'correct' in that its poll is well lower than its wither. If she's merely aiming for 'long and low' - well she's got it and got it good. But, if its something other than that, based on an english way of showing (discipline) then what you see isnt correct per say.

To get him to raise his poll and lift his frame she really would need to shorten her rein but even that doesn't mean she'll need more contact than what you see in your photo.

It really is a nice example - something for all of us to aim for.

[Just.Jump]

Yes, I know that the regular english riding is much more upright- but regardless of how high or low the headset is, thats the amount of slack I like in the reins, whatever length they are. When schooling my usual mare a couple of years ago in the summertime, I had to gave crazily short reins to be able to handle whatever trick she threw at me while we were in canter (I'm a bareback girl, so best to be prepared), because little shildren had been letting her get away with things. However, I was always taught to compensate- if you have short reins because the horse may need telling off, make sure you've got your hands nice and foreward to stay off of their mouth, and if they're nice and loose, let your hands slide back into the ready position.

And yes, definately look up a better coach!

[Floob]

I think that i've worked out what's up with the saddle, tacked up as normal today, did the shoulder, 3 finger check and all was fine, but when I got to the school the saddle had slipped forwards.
I reckon that this is because I tend to leave my girth slightly loose to then tighten after about 5 minutes. To get to the school you have to walk down a hill, so with a loose girth downhill the saddle was slipping forwards.

From now on I'll have to tighten the girth fully before going down and see if that makes any difference

[Just.Jump]

If the saddle slides that far forward when done up even with a loose girth, it is probably time to look into a better fitting saddle.

[Floob]

It only slides forward a bit, and the hill is quite steep, it also slips back when going up a steep hill.

He hasn't changed shape since this saddle was fitted and it was done properly. Saddler did say that because of his shape it would be very difficult to find a saddle that doesn't slip forwards at all.
I know I slip forwards a bit when going down hills bareback.

Will need a new saddle in about 3 months if everything goes to plan and his topline builds up due to hillwork, fittening and hopefully working better when I sort myself out

[Belle1]

Saddler actually said that a 16.5" saddle was the smallest that would fit him comfortably because of this.


A larger saddle would be easier for you to ride in. Not because of the size of the seat, but the size of the flaps. In particular the first picture shows that your legs are quite long for the flaps of the saddle so it will not be helping your leg position at all.

[Floob]

Very true, but at least this ine was a cob saddle and not a pony saddle.
(plopped quite a few pony saddles on him and they looked ridiculous, imagine that saddle we have now with even shorter flaps.

Thing is too, even though the flaps ae too short for me and my knee lies below the saddle flap, they are about rigth for my sister and my mum.
It is a bit of a nightmare having to ift saddle to one horse and 3 riders

[cvb]

ooh that sounds like a really good exercise, will definetly try it, after the picture was taken we started trying leg yielding from the centre line and it was a lot better than from the 3 quarter line, but this exercise sounds better by far.
Thanks

ps do you want to come and give us lessons?

Floob - where are you ? I almost talked myself into giving Pinks Lady a lesson but then talked myself out of it again ...

you're unlikely to be local, but there may be folk who could recommend another instructor to try ?

[Floob]

cvb Im in Scotland!! (Is that local enough)
Im in Aberdeenshire on Deeside at a yard called Glen Tanar Equestrian Centre (sounds posh doesn't it? well it isn't).
If you want to know more exactly it is near Aboyne.

Don't know many instructors as have always had ones at the RS, then when we got Tarquin started keeping him there and so haven't gotten to know any other instructors.

Nearest good instructor I know of lives 2 hours away so only get about 2 lessons a year from her, If you're closer than that recommend anyone