Lying horses down

[shelby]

When I first saw the movie 'The Horse Whisperer', I couldn't really get my head around the part where they roped the horse down and the girl stood on it. However, I have just attended a Frank Bell clinic where he explained the psychology behind this and it makes far more sense now.

Im meaning the roping down techniques for a fearful or untrusting horse, not the learned response which shows your horse trusts you and/or is comfortable lying down in your presence.

Has anyone seen this done, how did they do it and what was the result??

[Yann]

I don't like the idea at all, it's not something I think I would ever consider using and I've never actually heard of it being done in this country (UK). It's basically a severe form of flooding as far as I can see, I'd much rather see methods used that gave the horse some sort of choice in the matter, even if they took a lot longer.

[ambatt]

equally not happy with this method. A horse is a prey animal so to tie it down and incapacitate it to prevent it from carrying out is pre-programmed flight response must put it in a state of severe and prolonged stress.

Nasty and abusive in my book.

An alternative approach would be to use a Tellington-Jones TTouch method where the horse is 'wrapped', less stress all round.

[varkie]

As the others say, this is not something I would be happy to do, watch or have done to one of mine.

I have come across & worked with many abused/traumatised horse, and I can't think of a single one where this would be appropriate, or there isn't a better way.

This is one part of NH which I find very uncomfortable, and quite frankly abusive.

[cvb]

seen it done some years ago, with a horse that was quite extreme. In hindsight have some issues with the whole procedure not just the lying down part. However, it may have saved the horse from a trip to the dog meat factory. Does that justify it ? not convinced...

[shaiarabians]

hmmm hard one this one.

A Yes as absolute last resort before dog meat.

A no in the wrong inexperienced hands

A no if it means the horse is injured in the process

I have seen severl horses in my lifetime that have had to have extremes and theses extremes did injure them in my opinion if you have to injure or harm the horse to achieve the end then put them down.

If you can get this process done without injury or harm then yes in experienced hand I would do it.

Liesl

[Francis Burton]

How about this then?

http://www.the-endorphin-tap.com/

[dcp]

I knew a girl who attempted this and the horse went mad. She ended up reared and going right over landing on her back!!

[Crystal Fire]

Why don't you tell people what Frank Bell said Shelby? If I was at the point where a horse was about to be pts because of behaviour, and I'd tried everything I could think of, I would let someone who knew what they were doing lay the horse down. The trainers I work with all agree it's a very last resort strategy, something they might do only a few times in their lives.
Different if you're doing some trick training, I think that's another topic really...

[nix]

How about this then?

http://www.the-endorphin-tap.com/

I've been reading this link and perhaps I'm being thick, but I just don't get it. Why would you want to lie a horse down? Do you really need this "display" of trust? Does this endorphin tap even work, as my horse sometimes bends his head round like that (for a scratch) but he certainly doesn't go to sleep because of it? If endorphins are released under "periods of extreme stress", why would you want to replicate that? Surely if it puts a horse under extreme stress, is that why they warn not to use it if the horse does not trust you? Why then use it on a horse that there is already a trusting relationship in place?

Sorry for all the questions, but I'm not sure why opinions were asked on this method or how it would apply to the average horse owner. I do know that although I've gained ground in trust with my previously aggressive horse, it's probably not something I'd want to try with him.

[cvb]

nix

shelby may be able to clarify what Frank B said, but what I saw - some fiftenn years ago - relates to the whole idea of horses letting you into vulnerable areas.

So for example, a horse letting you into their belly - or any other vulnerable area - is a sign of their trust and acceptance of your leadership.

The "lying down" is an extreme version in that a horse is extremely vulnerable when lying down. But there is a big difference between them staying down when they are relaxed already and you simply approach, and putting them into that vulnerable position, especially when they are stressed.

This is where a hint of 'dominance' starts to creep in.

The guy I saw do it roped the horse's front leg up, so it as already vulnerable (on 3 legs). Then you turn the head sharply, and they really can't balance and start to go down.

By putting them down, you prove you can. You put them into that vulnerable position whether they like it or not. Often the person will then stand, sit or lie on top of the horse. Again reinforcing the fact the horse has to accept it.

(arg - my dislike of this is just oozing through in the words I use - sorry :o )

[varkie]

In addition to what I said earlier, I have been told that a horse I own might benefit from lying down - I couldn't disagree more!!! To lay this horse down may achieve the final aim - but it would be through breaking him down, not by winning his trust & co-operation. It may take me longer to win his willing co-operation, but I'd rather do it that way. I feel that to allow him to be laid down would be to give him the message that he has to do what we want, as he has no choice, as we will always ultimately be in the stronger position - this horse would never willingly lie down at this point. I want him to work for me because he trusts me & is happy to do so. I don't buy the whole thing about them realising that their worst thoughts have happened, and they are ok so will be happy to trust us in future. I think lieing down is about dominance - whether or not the trainers who use it believe that or not.

If it were lieing down or PTS, what would I do? Hard to say, without being in that position. Thing is, if I were in that position, would I truly feel that absolutely everything had been done before considering PTS? I'm really not sure that even then I'd feel happy about lieing down - it still feels like an extreme form of dominance to me - and not sure therefore that it would ultimately solve all the problems, or even enough of them long-term to make the huge emotional cost to the horse worth it.

[leoquine]

Wow, that sounds like a bunch of stuff that....well, horses make! :p


How is knocking out a horse and then sitting on it going to help you 'gain it's trust'? If someone grabbed my nose and pulled it in one direction till I was conked out and then sat on me, I wouldn't want to be a part of their life :D


I don't really think lying down horses in general is a good thing to do, unless they have the choice of lying down or running away. I know some 'horse whisperers' over here that use very cruel methods, a lot of them having the horse's only choice being the one the people want. They rope the horse and then push it down and sit on it, which is just plain mean. Parelli gets horses to lie down, but he ask them with a bit of pressure. If they didn't want to be in an uncomfortable position with a predator, then they could easily buck.

[cvb]

leoquine

I agree in that I don't think it "gains trust" - in the right circumstances it might be proof that the horse already trusted you. But in the situation I saw it was an "I can regardless of whether you want me to or not" !

[varkie]

I think the only time lying a horse down could show trust would be if the horse voluntarily chooses to lie down. If you have to make it - i.e. tying up a leg, or pulling over, then that shows dominance & force.

[Francis Burton]

I'm with varkie, nix and cvb on this one. Having a horse lie down of its own accord and then not want to get up again when you approach and sit down beside it (or whatever) is a measure of the horse's trust of you. But forcing it to lie down gains what? What does it prove?

As for the "endorphin tap", I think it is pretty horrible really - for what it says about a tapper's attitude to horses as much as anything else.

[shaiarabians]

""As for the "endorphin tap", I think it is pretty horrible really - for what it says about a tapper's attitude to horses as much as anything else.""

go and meet the man and talk to him first please Francis, You will find him extremely articulate and very communicative about it
http://www.imagineahorse.com/ImagineAHorse/default.htm

the base of the endorphins is that the horse is rewarded with an endorphin rush every time it does it right hense Positive re-inforcement not negitive

happy reading you lot

Liesl

[Ehley]

I belive this method is a form of breaking the horses spirit..
The horse is good after ward because it has no choice..because its spirit is broke and its a fast way to cure a problem..

[Crystal Fire]

That is not the explanation I have been given, by more than one trainer. First they said it's an absolute last, last resort after all else has failed. It's for the horses that will maybe end up dead if they can't get better at putting up with people. It's not something they would undertake lightly, as it could be dangerous for them and the horse if it went wrong. It was also something that they wouldn't do in front of a group of spectators, as they wouldn't want people to go "do this at home".
I was told that horses that "misbehave" around people do it from a basis of fear. With the very rare exceptions, even horses labelled as aggressive have got that way through fear. The horse ultimately fears that it is going to die. It may be upsetting to some people, but they feel that when the horse is laid down it thinks that it is going to die (which makes perfect sense). It then lives through that experience in the company of a human, the ultimate that it was afraid of when around humans didn't happen.
Like I say, it's a last resort, and of the 3 horse trainers I asked about it, only one had actually done it with a horse. 1 other was considering doing it with a horse that he'd had for years after all had been tried (including a stay with an excellent clicker trainer). So although in some circles this may be regarded as a routine thing, the people I learn with certainly don't view it in such a casual fashion.
As I said earlier, this is very different to teaching your horse to lie down as a trick or exercise in trust.
I wish I hadn't mislaid my Buck Brannaman book - he says something about it in there... (mislaid is a polite term for lending it to a toe rag who didn't give it back).

[shaiarabians]

hehehe death to the toe tag hehe

hope you manage to get your book back

Liesl

[shelby]

Well, I knew this was going to be an emotive topic, and thats why I didnt want to say too much initially.

Firstly, with respect to horses being injured, no one should attempt to do ANYTHING with a horse unless they know what they are doing :eek: there are far too many accidents that should and could have been avoided if people only stopped to think of the possible consequences of their actions.

FB said everything we do should be thought through before hand and we must have a mental picture of what we are aiming for. This makes a lot of sense to me, and would avoid many of those horrendous accidents. I dont even like calling them 'accidents' as I think many accidents are avoidable, and if we plan carefully, most could be prevented :mad: ! Its not the lying down in itself thats abuse, but the way people who dont know what they are doing try to do it. Doing it without knowing how to do it or why to do it is definately cruel.

This also relates to the idiots who say 'NH (usually Parelli) wrecked my horse, or the b******* that ran horses to death in round pens trying to achieve 'join up'. Its because they dont understand what or why they are doing what they are doing. (This doesnt mean Im an advocate of lying horses down as we have been discussing - and is why I asked the original Q - I dont take stuff at face value and Im still a bit on the fence with this one as I havent seen it work myself and have a few unanswered Q's about it from the horses point of view. Unfortunately, there were so many Q's at FB's clinic, I couldnt hold the floor the entire time ;)

Anyway, this has now developed from a Q and A by me to a rant about people doing things they dont understand :rolleyes: I have digressed from my original point and explaination of how I understood FB and will stop :)

While Im a Parelli level 2 student, the Frank Bell clinic was really interesting, and I really liked the emphasis on bonding and reward. Unlike most programmes, including Parelli, where, after the friendly game, reward is release of pressure, FB says release and physical reward - usually rubbing - increases learning by up to 60%. We never found out his reference for that, but hey, it cant hurt, especially when you see the gooey look on my mares face when her forehead is rubbed!

Anyway, as I understood it (and this is my interpretation, so I dont misquote FB) if a horse is either very fearful or a bit mis-trusting, if it is laid down, then the bonding that his programme is based on is initiated by the handler, then if a horse learns it wont be hurt while at its most vulnerable, then it will be even better in 'normal' situations. I can only liken it to being in a hospital ED, frightened and hurt and everyones stabbing you with needles, tubes and catheters and then some nice nurse comes and holds your hand. You would remember this nurse, but for the horse, there are no needles, and it seems, if laid down properly, then its not traumatic and the horse realises it wont be hurt while it is there. When people like FB says it DOES work (as long as the handler knows what they are doing - my emphasis) then I wonder if we need to think outside the square and look at the reason for what we do and the result. Some horsie people think my having my horses barefoot is cruel.

If lying down does work, however, it should only be attempted by very experienced NH people...........I wouldnt let anyone take my appendix out, however sore it was unless they had been trained to do so, or were under the guidance of someone who had! If it cant go to an experienced person, I think the meat factory might be a kinder end for a horse with huge problems, than ongoing 'abuse' by a well meaning but inexperienced person. I think the real problem is that we often dont realise the emotional and psychological anguish we cause horses ( and each other!) which is tantamount to abuse. Most horses cope fine - my previous horse was ridden in a bit, and I kept a firm hold on her mouth as I had been taught by a succession of instructors and she didnt appear too miserable! Now I do things differently and hope my new horses are happier. If I had a horse that was in need of 'lying down', I would definately be looking to give it to Pat P or FB than try and treat it myself. Just as I wouldnt try to take out my husbands tonsils myself! Back to my ranting.....:rolleyes:

p.s. To the person who cant see the benefit of a horse trusting you enough to lie down willingly for you, I give up!

[Just.Jump]

Endorphin tap= unproven crap, that for all we know is being performed with a trick horse (I watched the videos- same horse every time looks fishy to me, when they are claiming it works on EVERY horse. If the standing how page was a different one, there is no proof it worked since it was just photos)

the purpose of horses being laid down is for disabled riders to be able to mount horses without the aid of anyone else. Specifically you can probably find pictures and websites documenting this training being used on horses who's owners have recently been disabled- I remember very well going onto a website a few years back documenting a woman who was put into a wheelchair with parlyzation in her legs due to an accident, and had someone come in to train her horse to kneel/lay down so that she could maneuver herself on from the ground.

This is why they trained the horse to do that in the movie- because the girl had an amputated leg, and would not otherwise have been to get on reliably without aid- and you should know that in the riding world, confidence is a requirement.

However, keep in mind that movies play everything up- I highly doubt that anyone would be successful at roping down a horse unless very highly qualified natural horsemen in a dire situation (keeping them from the meat packing)

[shelby]

...and Frank didnt tell us HOW to do it, probably didnt want us tryng it and ending up with injured or dead horses. He did indicate he would have done it on one of the horses there, but didnt have the proper equipment with him.

[Crystal Fire]

Well done Shelby for introducing and interesting discussion. What you are saying was Frank's explanation pretty much ties in with what I was trying to explain. Scared horses are basically worried they are going to die I think. And if they learn that the person who laid them down didn't kill them, but let them up, then maybe they can learn to trust.
I do know it works, and when I see people completely out of their depth with dangerous horses, making things worse for themselves and the horse... well, an expert laying it down might be a good alternative!
None of mine have been laid down to date, but I have one that goes down very easily for a cuddle, and another that will come over if I sit in the field long enough, and lay down near me.
I had a TB that I sort of wish had been laid down for me, with hindsight, because I had to part with him in the end after much cleverer people than me felt they could do no more. But he retired, so it was fine from his point of view :D

[varkie]

I've read through your explanations of why very carefully, and thought it through. I accept that the explanation the trainers give, they truly believe - same with some posters on here. I accept that the posters believe that this is a beneficial thing to do.

But I'm afraid I still don't buy it!!!

Although I can accept your view point, I just can't agree with it. I'm afraid I don't believe that this procedure is not traumatic for the horse, and I don't believe that the horse learns to trust the human through this, I still feel that the horse merely learns that ultimately he has no choice but to co-operate in the future or he has the ultimate punishment hanging over him, and that it is a form of breaking their spirit.

As I said before, I have a horse who has had a very traumatised past, and lying down has been suggested as a possibility for him. Never. It ain't never gonna happen. I know this horse so well by now, and I know how he would feel about & view this procedure. He would feel he was going to die, he would be terrified, he would fight every step of the way, and then ultimately he would enter a state of 'frozen watchfulness'. He would learn nothing but that ultimately he had no choice but to accept whatever this person wanted to do, or risk his life. Would his behaviour improve in the future? Possibly, but only due to having either accepted the dominance of the person, or through fear of the consequences. This is not the kind of relationship I want this horse to have with people.

[Crystal Fire]

If it makes sense Varkie, I don't think your horse is a candidate for lying down either. No way is he that bad, or in a situation where he could end up dead if he doesn't come to terms with life. Even with the trainers who I've spoken to who would consider it, they would rather prefer that the horse could just retire somewhere for the rest of it's days.
Not all traumatised, scared and dangerous horses get the opportunity to spend their days with people who will make allowances for them. Some do the rounds of trainers and end up unloaded from a trailer with the instruction that it's to be sorted out or they will be shot. Possibly they are better off shot, but until I have seen a horse laid down for this reason with my own eyes, and been able to be around them for some time after to judge how they are longer term, I reserve judgement.

[kunama]

Well my colt lays down when asked. i've had him since three months and he is very relaxed around people , so we just 'suggested' the idea to him till the penny droped and he loves it. I'm going to teach the other horses to do it to but as they were 'normal' horses first it may take a while. but there will be no force involved and i have found they are enjoying learning and becomeing more relaxed for it.

[chev]

Well I set off for the field today with French link at the ready. Gelfy (who is quite used to being asked to do carrot stretches and so on already) was very co-opertaive to begin with; turned his head to the side as per instructions on the endorphin tap page and stood there. After a couple of minutes Gelfy started to wonder why I wanted him to do that, and suggested that we stop now. I suggested we carry on until he lay down, and he made it quite clear that he wasn't keen. So we gave up.

I don't know if he would have laid down if I forced him to keep his head turned or not. I'm afraid I wasn't prepared to insist when he was starting to voice objections. We did a few carrot stretches and I left him obviously wondering if I'd taken leave of my senses.

So... I'm not convinced by the endorphin tap.

But... also on the subject of lying horses down, the Household Cavalry (I think it's them anyway! :o ) do this as part of all horses' training. They teach them to lie down. Historically the reason was so that horses could be made to lie down when in sight of the enemy - it made them much less visible if they were lying down, and gave the mounted side the advantage of surprise when they were ready to attack. While that's no longer an issue, they do still teach them to do this. And it's no big deal as far as the horses are concerned; they lie and graze while the handler sits with them, or lie down with their heads in the handler's lap, all very relaxed and happy. They still do this because they see it as the horse demonstrating it is happy, relaxed and trusts the handler, not as a submissive thing so much. They do it as part of the displays they put on; the horses are happy to do this even in very big crowds.

[kunama]

so the question is , how do the cavalry do it!!!?

[doris]

This is not something Monty Roberts, or anyone else I've ever heard of does. As far as I can remember Monty Roberts saying at one of his demos - he was an advisor for the film with Robert Redford (who I think had something to do with the direction of the film as well as the starring role). When the filmakers/Robert Redford insisted on using this method in the film, Monty Roberts walked off the set and never went back.

[Crystal Fire]

The Horse Whisperer was based on Buck Branaman, and he was the technical adviser on the film. In his book The Faraway Horses he tells how he got involved with the author and the film, and explains the logic behind lying a horse down. Sadly, my copy of the book has gone AWOL, surely somebody here has it and can find the quote? Buck also says that he didn't think the film took the time to clearly portray how/why a horse would be laid down, but there are limitations when working in films and after all... cant' tell you the exact words but he pointed out it's mainly a love story, not a film about horse training.
Monty Roberts has done a lot of good things for the world of horses, but I think many people acknowledge that he does get a little bit carried away with his own legend sometimes in his books. :)
Monty makes a big deal about the photo of his father laying a horse down. Monty's family published the full page which includes this photo, from the book his father wrote, I think it was published in the 1940's. In the book there is an explanation about why a horse would be restrained and laid down like this. It is described as a method to use on a horse needing emergency treatment for an injury, or for gelding. Bearing in mind that in those days veterinary treatment was a bit less sophisticated than it is now.

[Crystal Fire]

From Horse Whispers and Lies (which is available to read on the internet if you want to, so no secret and they've not been sued in all the years the book has been published).
"The photograph was actually taken to explain the method and show the procedure of laying a horse down if you intended to neuter a stallion or to doctor a wound. In the 1950s, most experienced horse handlers possessed a lot of veterinary knowledge. Marvin was no exception. A veterinarian might not be immediately available and knowing how to lay a horse down to administer emergency medical treatment might mean the difference between life and death for an horse with a severe injury."
and
"The director of AHA’s Film and TV Unit, Gini Barrett, personally supervised the scene Monty has most criticized. What follows is an excerpt from a four-page news release written by Gini Barrett and issued by the AHA and titled, "American Humane Association Condemns False Statements by Monty Roberts":
[I] personally supervised the scene Monty Roberts has most criticized—when Pilgrim is gently brought to a lying down position utilizing a rope around a front hoof to shift the horse’s center of gravity. In the actual filming of the scene, [two horses] were used to play Pilgrim. Both are well-trained horses, and were completely relaxed throughout the film sequence. Lying down is a familiar and simple request for them, and the rope merely an aspect of their wardrobe. At no time during the filming of this sequence was any animal stressed or placed at risk.
While Monty Roberts does not approve of this technique, and that is certainly his right, other compassionate and excellent natural horsemanship trainers can and do use it humanely. Could this technique be used in an abusive manner? Certainly—as could almost any practice. Monty Roberts has stated in several interviews that his father used a similar technique in a cruel manner. Perhaps he needs to watch other trainers work and learn how it might be done properly."

[Colorado Sunset]

Sorry I havnt had to have a proper read through this as am supposed to be writting an essay atm ;) :rolleyes:

but I had a quick look at the site and this is what really stood out:

Any horse that needs a little reminder "Who's the boss is" will succumb to
"The Endorphin Tap" method. Using the "Full-Tap" you can have total compliance from ANY horse. Or just use the "Endorphin
Tap" to join up in minutes instead of hours and earn the trust you want in your time and not when the horse is ready

What??? NOT WHEN THE HORSE IS READY???

hmm, this doesnt sound like something I would ever like to see used, it demines any respect you have for the horse, any partnership. This emphasises having a boss-employee relationship, not a partnership. Anyone who claims to use NH methods, which ever ones they are should have respect for their horse and understand that they must be ready and in a state to learn, not just when the owner feels like it.

As others have said this could be very dangerous in the wrong hands... :mad:

Jo

[Crystal Fire]

I think this "endorphin tap" palaver is being advocated as a thing to use on all and sundry. It's not the principle many natural horsemen would apply, as discussed above.
And then, dealing with severe behaviour problem horses by a last resort of lying them down is different again to lying down a horse in a spirit of adventure and co-operation.
I have some photos of my pony laid down, with me sitting with her, and lying against her. Was that a dominant thing to do?

[Francis Burton]

I have some photos of my pony laid down, with me sitting with her, and lying against her. Was that a dominant thing to do?
Not at all, I would have thought! Rather it shows her trust in you. (Presume she decided to lay down of her own accord?)

[Crystal Fire]

Yes, she decided to have a lay down and I decided to join her.
I'm pondering on this whole thing of horses being laid down, and I don't think it's straightforward. But I am aware that many people, if they see a picture of a horse laid down, maybe with the person sat on top (I've got photos of me doing that too) will automatically start to talk of dominance. To me a horse that goes down of their own accord, or maybe that offers it as an option when you're doing something else, is showing confidence and relaxation.
In this discussion we have ended up talking about different ways of laying horses down, and for different reasons.
The Endorphin Tap - the link seems to suggest that it's a good thing to do to horses in a variety of circumstances. Even if it works, it seems heavy handed and unecessary to me. So I wouldn't be comfortable with that.
Laying down a troubled horse as a last resort. Well, I know that does work, and feel that if it's done by a careful handler it could be seen as a compassionate act. Certainly the people I've talked to in this vein would not treat it lightly, and they see it as a horse-saving strategy after other ways have failed. I don't think many of us here have come across horses as badly damaged an afraid as the horses they are talking about. To me, that was whaty they were trying to portray in the Horse Whisperer, but as it was a movie and not about horse training, the whole thing wasn't very clearly explained. At least, not to people like us, I'm sure the majority of people who saw the film just accepted it and have no intentions of trying it at home. :)

[varkie]

If your horse offers to lay down, or does so through choice, and because he feels relaxed & trusts you, I have no problem with that, and don't see that as dominance linked at all - but rather confidance/relaxations/trust based.

I do & have come across severely traumatised horses, and still don't think I have yet met a horse who would benefit from being laid down with force - it still sounds like excess force & dominance to me - I don't see how the horse benefits from having excess force & dominance used. I feel that even used by a 'considerate' handler, this is still too much. And I'm not convinced that would be the very last thing that you could do for a horse - it sounds more like a short cut to me.

[melpond]

hi there i have read all the posts with interest. as a person who has worked both with frank bell and buck brannaman and with severly traumatised horses the laying down process was not portrayed in the film as it would have been if it was used to 'help' the psycology of the animals. laying down would be approached with caution and should only be used in experianced hands! it would be a process of building the horses confidence over a period of time working toward laying the horse down. i have personally seen this method completely turn around a horse who was otherwise branded dangerous and should be shot. it cerainly is not barbaric and detrimental to the animal in any way. please bear in mind the tools are only as good as those who use them!!!
i have used this technique on many occasions for various reasons only to help the animal lead a normal life. its not a process to be used on the everyday animal but for psycological reasons to help in extreme cases. after all if it works to help an animal and done in a kind and confidence building way whats the problem or the alternative? live a life in fear and hatered or a life of trust and confidence? i know which i would want!

[Crystal Fire]

Re the lying down I think you're missing the point I'm trying to make Varkie. The only time I would ever consider that it MIGHT be worth doing, would be in circumstances where the horse was at a total last chance. Where all the other things had been tried, clicker the lot... and the horse goes to a trainer who has probably dealt with many more problem horses than either you or I would wish to see in a lifetime - and they can't help either. So the owner says - OK, I'm not wasting any more money, I'm going to collect him and "dog him". Some horses are in such a constant state of fear that they are a danger to themselves, you could let them loose on some wild range somewhere I suppose. But if they have to live in our human world it might come down to either try this last-chance method or it would be kinder to have them put to sleep. (And we know that they do get put to sleep, we only have to read the Net discussion groups to hear their sad stories).
I have spoken to 3 trainers who I respect, and who I am sure have dealt with many more dangerous and traumatised horses than either you or I will ever meet. They all said the same thing, that is the time they might lay the horse down to get it to accept humans, when there is nothing left to try but the bullet.
You know that my friend has met your horse, and although there was some discussion about how your horse was handled, my friend says that no way is your horse a candidate for lying down. He isn't "that bad".