Questions, questions

[Jubato]

Hi Guys!

Had my 2nd lesson and things were more abysmal this time than my first lesson. *laugh* Won't bore you all with details but let's just say I was a grown woman on the verge of tears. 2 questions though:


1) Is it so wrong to use a mounting block? We had a different instructor from first lesson. First RI straight off told OH and I to use mounting block. This new RI just told us to get on the horse and didn't mention the block. I *tried* to just get on without but I'm short and can barely lift my leg onto the first stirrup much less stick it in AND push myself up. So I very politely asked if I could use the mounting block and the RI literally rolled his eyes at me, did an impatient gesture with his hand and said, "fine just get on with it" then walked away. Did I violate some taboo or something?

2) Are there voice commands for helping to making the horse move? I squeezed till my legs hurts and the horse still wouldn't do what I wanted. The only time she did anything for 10 seconds was when the RI looked at me and made that clicking sound. Should I be making that sound too?

[stormchaser]

1) your RI is being rude. :p Use a mounting block whenever possible. Far less stressful for you, the horse, and his back.

2) squeeze lightly first, then harder if you don't listen, and if that doesn't work repeat and use the voice command (clicking sound). Ask with the leg first, then repeat and use other aids like voice or crop (just a light tap). Don't 'boot' or thump on his belly!

[*Sez*]

I always try to use a block, firstly because you can twist the saddle and hurt your horse's back, and secondly because mine is an ex-racer and was trained to be mounted by jockeys who get a leg up whilst moving. He gets a bit unsettled if you heave yourself on from the ground! :rolleyes:

I always use voice commands, whether I intend to or not (a habit I will have to get out of for dressage). My horse responds to clicking or to "walk on", "trot on", "canter on", "and stand" - and finallly- "and on" which he knows means "stay at this pace until told otherwise". I use these for lunging, leading and riding.

[LMS]

Similar response to the two above:
1- Mounting blocks are not taboo. Using one saves your horse's back & saddle from being "torqued" (or cause future damage).

2- I train my horses to voice commands whether I'm working up on them or off the ground. The voice is a natural aid and you use it when using other natural aids (seat, legs) are not enough. If the horse still is not responsive: use all natural aids (seat, legs & voice) as well as a whip.
How strong you use these aids is left to the discretion of your RI.

[Peace]

1. Your RI was showing his ignorance. As others have said, using a mounting block is a courtesy to the horse and saves torque on the saddle tree. More importantly, IMO, he should never have left a beginner alone to mount - mounting and dismounting are when most riding school accidents happen!

2. Just wanted to add to the above responses that you shouldn't feel as though you're doing something wrong or that your horse is lazy. School horses suitable for beginners are the kind whose response to anything different is to slow down and/or stop. That trait will keep you safe while you're learning, even if it is a little frustrating at times.:) And pretty soon you'll know how to position your leg to give an effective aid.

[cvb]

Jubato

I saw a useful analogy for the leg thing the other weekend so I'm going to steal it and tell you ;)

Put your hands on your ribs - like when you put your hands on your hips but higher up ;)

Now squeeze - what does it feel like ? Keep squeezing like you were saying you did with this pony - does it make you want to move ? If you try and move with your hands tight on your ribs, how does it make you feel ?

relax for a moment. Now put your hands back and "nudge" inwards with them. annoying innit - reckon that'd make you move ;)

A bit of science for you to back this up - if you put constant pressure on a nerve, after a while it ceases to transmit any signal to the brain - i.e. you cease to feel that pressure. If you use changing pressure, the nerve continues to pick it up. (This is simplistic, but it gives the basic idea).

Now BIG question is why did the instructor just stand there and let you do that without explaining anything ? After all, this is only your second lesson... how are you supposed to know unless he tells you ?

I would be adult, be assertive, and make sure your next lesson is with the person who taught the first one !

[LMS]

Just adding to Peace's response regarding horses for beginners:
I didn't realise you were a beginner that being said; horses KNOW the difference between a beginner, timid, experienced, agressive handler/rider.
Some horses will be tolerant, some will take advantage and some will look after their human.

I've seen horses refuse to budge when a timid or novice rider was on board no matter what type of aid was used.
On the flip side though, I've seen the same happen with an experienced rider. The horse just didn't understand what was being asked.

[raingodz]

I don't like the sound of that instructor :(

At my RS you always get on from a mounting block or a crate, as has been said above, this is better for the horses back.

As for voice commands, there are situations where you might not be allowed to use you voice (such as in a dressage test) but on the whole I think it is a good idea. I think I am pretty much the only person in my Saturday group who uses voice commands, but most of them uses voice commands in the Tuesday group I sometimes attend (which is made up mainly from riders of a higher grade than me).

The only voice command problem I have is that one of my instructors (can be 1 of 3 at my RS depending when I ride) does on like me putting the word "on" on the end of the command, she said that the horse pays most attention to the last word so rather than "walk on" or "trot on" it should be "and walk" or "and trot" or "terrrrot". I am not sure how true this is.

So yes I think voice commands are good, as is talking to the horse if there are distractions around to try and keep it focused on you rather than the distraction.

[Jubato]

*laugh* Thanks CVB, that makes SO much more sense now!!! Thanks everyone else too, what would I do without you all? :D

OH got real mad at this RI because he went on and on about dressage and about the British team vs. the German team (dissing them sorta) when the two of us are basically just trying to have the horse move and stay on so he's decided if we can't have lessons with the first RI we're gonna switch RSes.

I was quite mad at my pony at first but now that you guys have explained it, I think she was just taking the mick sometimes but at other times she WAS trying to take care of me. She would stop trotting after about 5 seconds becuase my foot kept coming out of the stirrup! She later kept thumping her foot and yanking me to the left when I was leading her out to her stables on the right side instead of the left. I thought she was edgy but I guess she might be just trying to correct me :)

My first beginners group lesson tomorrow! Not giving up yet! And I won't be as shy about asking to use the mounting block either!

[JamesJackson]

Yeah, to echo what CVB said - the thing with instructions to the horse is to give the instruction, then relax back to however you were before to let the horse think about it, and perform the instruction. If that doesn't happen, you try again a little more assertively, and so on. If it's being really stubborn this might amount to a tab with a crop etc.

[cvb]

Raingodz

There may be good reasons to avoid using voice commands in a group lesson. How do the horses in a group like that know what person to listen to ? A lot of them will already be tuned into the person in the middle, so when (s)he says "prepare to...." they'll be waiting for something to happen.

I used to have to s..p..e..l..l... it out when on a hack "shall we T.R.O.T. at that corner ?" cos my old chap knew all the words - and he actually got pretty good at spelling by the end as well :rolleyes:

even now, if I am in the school with someone else riding Duds or Fi, I have to be careful what I say !

[raingodz]

Raingodz

There may be good reasons to avoid using voice commands in a group lesson. How do the horses in a group like that know what person to listen to ?
I hadn't thought of it like that :o :o

May be I need to modify my vocal commands in the lesson some what :o

[LMS]

The only voice command problem I have is that one of my instructors (can be 1 of 3 at my RS depending when I ride) does on like me putting the word "on" on the end of the command, she said that the horse pays most attention to the last word so rather than "walk on" or "trot on" it should be "and walk" or "and trot" or "terrrrot". I am not sure how true this is.
The reason you add the word "on" after the command word is for when you are going up within the gait or up a gait.
It is true that the horse will pay attention to that particular word & take it as a cue to give more impulsion within that gait or go up to the gait asked.
As well as the difference on how you use the word without the cue word "on".

If my horse is at a walk & I want him to trot I will say "terrrot". Within that gait I may repeat it or say "trot on" if I'm looking for more impulsion or extension. Think of "on" as adding more "omph".

When I want my horse to slow down or go to a lower gait, I use the command word in a slow downward voice along with the word "and".

The word "and" before the command word (trot or walk) is used to prepare the horse that a command is coming. Think of it as a half halt.

So: aaaand waaaalk, aaaand whoooa. Or "and terrrot".

[cvb]

Raingodz - the "and... walk", "and... trot" can be really useful for lunging (when you get your own appy :D). Tone is important - I use a rising tone for upward transition and a lowering one for downward. The advantage of "and...." is that you can use it for both up and down... You also need to differentiate between the words so "whoa" is different to "walk" is different to "trot". e.g. trot normally becomes.. TerROT !

when going from trot to walk, would you still say "Walk On!" ?
"and... walk" works either way ;) The "and" becomes a vocal half-halt - the horse hears the "and" and is on alert.

(Got to get you in training now, for when you get that Appy ;) )

[LMS]

Raingodz

There may be good reasons to avoid using voice commands in a group lesson. How do the horses in a group like that know what person to listen to ? A lot of them will already be tuned into the person in the middle, so when (s)he says "prepare to...." they'll be waiting for something to happen.

I used to have to s..p..e..l..l... it out when on a hack "shall we T.R.O.T. at that corner ?" cos my old chap knew all the words - and he actually got pretty good at spelling by the end as well :rolleyes:

even now, if I am in the school with someone else riding Duds or Fi, I have to be careful what I say !
Yes, using your voice depends on the circumstance.
When I teach a group, it is very controlled. They either do the exercise at the same time or they take turns. At first they are encouraged to use their voice at the same time as their other aids. As they progress, the rider eventually uses less voice until no voice is needed.

[Trewsers]

Nothing wrong with using a mounting block - our yard owner and all of my teachers have thought its a good thing, much kinder to the horses back;) There is nothing clever about hopping up from the ground everytime just for the sake of it - I can mount from the ground but I'd rather not - it just pulls on Storm's saddle. Your teacher quite frankly sounds a bit of a git - sorry if that sounds harsh, but you shouldn't walk away from a lesson feeling on the verge of tears:mad: Hopefully your next one will be better but if it continues I'd look elsewhere. Not all of my early lessons went brilliantly, but my teacher always made me feel like I'd done my best and encouraged me. Good luck. :)

[LMS]

At the end of a lesson, a good instructor will recap what was taught, what was learned & what needs improvement. It's a feedback session where you voice all these & your concerns.
That way, once you hop off your horse you are sent home thinking: I learned this today, did very well in this area and need to work more in that area. I can hardly wait till next week & give it another go!

[raingodz]

cvb, this makes a lot of sence, I have never lunged a horse before, but I can see that voice commands are much more important when lunging.

Thinking about it, I have only had one lunging lesson (in 1986) which resulted in me falling off :eek:

So I suppose the questions is, in the lesson situation, should the voice be resurved for when the normal aids have not given the expected result?

(Got to get you in training now, for when you get that Appy ;) )
A friend of mine is getting a 2yo Appy tommorrow, so I am hoping that she will let me come along and visit and hopefully do some work with them(haven't asked yet... just hoping :rolleyes: ).

[LMS]

So I suppose the questions is, in the lesson situation, should the voice be resurved for when the normal aids have not given the expected result?
Yes

[raingodz]

Yes
Good answer :D

So should the voice aid happen before using the whip then?

[LMS]

Raingodz:You mean what to try before using a whip? Or when you are using a whip?
If using your voice & other natural aids (used at the same time) do not work and you need to use a whip, yes: use all aids at the same time.
Meaning: I want my horse to walk on (and there are no reasons why he shouldn't be able to) I will use my seat, legs, voice & whip. The whip is used at the same time as I use my legs. The whip is to reinforce this aid.

Using your voice is to make the connection so that, hopefully, next time you use your legs with your voice, your horse will comply.

A light bulb will go on in his head & think:"Oh yeah, squeezing means to move & I really don't want the annoying stick to touch me again. So I'll move."

Where you use the whip & how much force depends on the horse & your ability. The RI should tell you how to use it.

[eml]

CVB just been rereading the same book I suspect 'Real Riding'? I too like the friends ribs game.

Jubato A RI is exactly that an instructor, if they don't instruct you and you are not enjoying their tuition get a new one!!

[raingodz]

If using your voice & other natural aids (used at the same time) do not work and you need to use a whip, yes: use all aids at the same time.
Meaning: I want my horse to walk on (and there are no reasons why he shouldn't be able to) I will use my seat, legs, voice & whip. The whip is used at the same time as I use my legs. The whip is to reinforce this aid.

I think I have some times had more of a serial approach with the use of the various aids, rathe than using several at the same time, it seem to end up that I use several in quick succession

Where you use the whip & how much force depends on the horse & your ability. The RI should tell you how to use it.
Some times my RI forgets to tell me some of the basic stuff, because I rode as a child (then had a 15 year gap), I have a little knowledge in exeses of my current abilities and then some quite big gaps where I have forgotten simple things that I really should know - but NR is helping fill the gaps :)

[Wally]

If I am driving out more than one horse we can hold a conversation on the cart and the horses will not react, If one of them is dropping back in his collar and being lazy he knows it's him I am speaking to, I can chase him up with voice alone and not upset the guy who is working well.

A lesson of horses won't...or shouldn't react to one rider using the voice.

I like the idea of using your leg as though you are tickling the horse in the ribs. Not an unyeilding squeeze, but a little shuggle, done really fast and then release.