How do you use your leg to trot in school?

[Skib]

I am asking people to say what they do, without prejudice. My asking is not a criticism of my own instructor, nor of anyone on this board. But from genuine interest as the question came up three times yesterday.

1. I reported that, guided by an instructor who had been to a demo by the Hoys, I used my heels, but only if the horse fell below the speed I had asked for.
2. DavidH posted video of his OH in trot and canter. This is really useful for new riders. It is so hard to get film of a normal rider in action. I have seen many instructors ride this way. The rider seems to be using her heels in trot, but at every stride.
3. I am taught in my regular lessons not to kick the horse, not to turn my toes out, nor to use my legs behind the girth since this signals sideways movement to my dressage trained lesson horse. I do not use my heels on any horse, (unless told to by a teacher as in (1) above).
4. Does anyone use only their calves? cvb explained to a new rider yesterday that one should not squeeze the horse's rib cage with ones calves. But can one bring ones calves in and then release them, without flapping one's legs?
5. Is there anyone in the UK who thinks it practical not to use leg at all? I could have left this out, but in the USA horses are expected to maintain the required gait without more leg. cvb and I are influenced by the American mark rashid and my teacher's dressage approach is similar. When I have loosened up my lesson horse these days, with luck, she will trot round the school with no leg at all, just a verbal clucking encouragement. Trotting a horse, using breathing and with no visible aids is the best experience, but stressful as one cant guarantee the result.

[Mehitabel]

i aim for 4. my calves are in contact with the horse, so i can just squeeze in slightly with no visible movement at all. when i figure out how to use the video setting on my new digicam i will sweet-talk someone into videoing a clip and then see if i canwork out how to put it online.
in an ideal world, all my aids would be invisible - so calves on without visibly moving, hands just closing and resisting slightly, and the majority coming fro mshifts in my core muscles. i am not in that ideal world, alas, but working on it.

[Pegasus]

I give a gentle nudge with my caves and if the horse ignores it i give a harder nudge and then if it is still ignoring my leg i give the horse a flick with a schooling whip. I aim to get the horse going forward with impulsion and tracking up. If it starts to loose it's implusion i repeat the above. I think in the uk horses should maintain the required gait it just depends on how they are trained. Riding school horses are particually bad at breaking their gate because they are ridden by so many people and they know that they can get away with it.

[Dummer&Drummer]

i dont really use my legs as in squeezing sense anymore - did for rupert - but with drummer it you put your inside leg forward and outside on the girth, slightly shorten the reins and sit tall (slightly back) he will canter - not learnt the downwards as good - i think with drummer a pat means job done :)

[DavidH]

2. DavidH posted video of his OH in trot and canter. This is really useful for new riders. It is so hard to get film of a normal rider in action. I have seen many instructors ride this way. The rider seems to be using her heels in trot, but at every stride.

Sadley there is no single answer. It really depends on the horse, rider and what you are trying to achieve.
In the vids it was my wife riding Ed. Some specific conditions apply in this case.
1. Very large horse
2. Very small rider ;)
3. Ed is a Grade B showjumper who hasn't learned to balance in trot properly as show jumpers dont need to trot.
4) Ed has been used to being in a strong bit and ridden with spurs (prior to coming to me) so has developed the habit of going way behind the bit.
5) This was the first time my wife had schooled Ed.

What Alison had to do was to get him to balance himself in trot accepting him going behind the verticle initially. Once she had conmnection from back end to hand she then had to really push his nose out and up with her leg whilst maintaining the balance and connection. Hence the constant use of legs.
This is just a transitory step. Aim is to get him in to self carriage without having to use leg constantly. If she rode her own dressage pone this way she would be on the deck as the mare is now very light to the aids and maintains what is asked for without constant encouragement. Eventually Ed will perform this way but for now we need to overcome some issues developed duringhis SJ career :o
So, as I said at the start. You do what you need to do at the time to get the desired result. As things change so does your style of riding for the particular horse.

[cvb]

4. Does anyone use only their calves? cvb explained to a new rider yesterday that one should not squeeze the horse's rib cage with ones calves. But can one bring ones calves in and then release them, without flapping one's legs?


Just typed out a whole reply only to have out internet connection do weird things :mad:

Should clarify - the squeeze thing was a person on their second lesson who had squeezed until they were sore :( I'm not against calf per se - a hug is fine, a bear hig which stops you breathing is not ;)

The "flap" comes from taking the leg away. Some instructors do teach this way of using your leg. Sam M (western) suggested that way to me last year. The aid comes from lifting the leg away and letting it fall back. As a small movement this is not going to look very different from starting with a soft hig and doing a small nudge in.

For some riders the very act of taking their leg away can destablise them. There is some research to suggest that people have different balance mechanisms. Some literally balance "by the seat of their pants" and others from where their feet are (put them on dodgy ground and they will struggle).

If we take this as true, some riders will balance based on the saddle, and others based on the stirrups. I do not mean that this is where their weight is - but where most of their sensory feedback comes from.

So it may be that "feet balancers" are the ones who are destabilised if they take their leg away...

I think I use the whole of my leg. I know (from the grease on my boots) that I turn my toe out more than I should, bringing the back of the calf into play. I can explain this in part through being over-weight and under-fit so not being able to get the open hip and flat leg that I would aim for as an ideal :( That and a slightly dodgy knee :o

[Purple Hugs]

I'm pretty new to riding, and have had to do different thigns according to the horse.. :p

Kappa - squeeze on sitting with calves, and occasionally when she's extra lazy in a lesson needs a kick - which I struggle with as end up kind of flapping i suppose. :rolleyes: She wills stop when she wants to really anyhow.. although last week, with just squeezing she was fab, but we were busy doing trotting poles and other bits.

Bertie - forward going 16.3hh long stride gent, you NEVER need to kick, he'll walk trot etc on squeezes. It was un-nerving the first time I rode him.. but you get used to it, and he's a love.

then I've had others that trot when you want, walk when you ask and are great.
And others that need a tap with a whip... all depends on the horse. :rolleyes:

[Peace]

3. I am taught in my regular lessons not to kick the horse, not to turn my toes out, nor to use my legs behind the girth since this signals sideways movement to my dressage trained lesson horse. I do not use my heels on any horse, (unless told to by a teacher as in (1) above).
4. Does anyone use only their calves? cvb explained to a new rider yesterday that one should not squeeze the horse's rib cage with ones calves. But can one bring ones calves in and then release them, without flapping one's legs?
5. Is there anyone in the UK who thinks it practical not to use leg at all?

3. Right. To my horses, pressure from one leg means turn or move away from pressure. Pressure from both legs means stop, and continued pressure means back up. Heels would only be used after several other aids if the horse drops back a gait.
4. Yes, if the horse drops back a gait then I give a quick pulse with *one* calf as a secondary aid if verbal clucking or kissing is ignored. (If this is ignored too then I use one heel.) It's just a quick pulse inward and back to normal position. Not a flap - I hope.:)
5. I'm in the U.S. and as you say I expect the horse to keep going at that gait until I tell him different. Not to say my expectations aren't often disappointed;) , but that's the plan anyway.:) Quanah will pick up a trot from a verbal "cluck," so no leg required. Until I do something klutzy, at which point he stops.:o

[Dummer&Drummer]

Arr my horse keeps to the gait once asked until i say different, once in canter you can take you legs off and he'll stay in canter, tight turns requires legs back on and going down transitions requires legs back on but your upper body is different - thats what i learning so far anyway ....lol so diff from my last one, bit hard work and dead to the leg - strong riding :)

[Skib]

DavidH, I had wondered if using heels more arose from spurs, so influenced riders who used spurs - as I imagine eventers do, including the Hoys?
I am a bit nervous of turning my toe out in canter, as had it catch slightly in a school fence when I got too close in canter. And I think that is how Laetitia hurt herself. But it might be the best way.
Your explanation is very good. About teaching Ed. I like that. I'm interested in what real riders actually do in real situations.
As, face it, the usual scenario for novices like me who want to hack, is to ride a school assessment on an RS horse one has never met before and I need practical understanding of how riders handle that.

[Katharine]

It often depends on the horse.
If I am riding a green horse I often need to encourage it to keep going in trot, especially round corners - find it more difficult to balance themselves. So in this scenario...gosh I don't know...! I used to have a pretty bad habit of curling my leg up so I suppose I was using my heels (incorrectly). I like to think that I just give a squeeze with my calves and if they don't respond then I give them a tickle with the stick. However I'm not sure if this is the case - I (like you cvb) find that the collection of grease on my boots is more towards the back of my calves indicating that I am curling my leg up (need more lessons so someone can spot it from the ground! :o ).
However, if I am riding a more experienced horse (providing it is fit) I expect it to be able to continue trotting round the arena til the cows come home! :D So I can keep the (hopefully) subtle leg movements for more lateral movements.
I'm not sure if that makes any sense! :rolleyes: I hope this may answer some of your questions though!

[Colorado Sunset]

3. Right. To my horses, pressure from one leg means turn or move away from pressure. Pressure from both legs means stop, and continued pressure means back up. Heels would only be used after several other aids if the horse drops back a gait.

This seems very strange to me, born, bred and taught in england!

Pressure from both legs to stop? As opposed to move forwards?!?!

How do you move forwards then?

(not being rude, but genuinly interested! :p)

Jo

[Peace]

This seems very strange to me, born, bred and taught in england!

Pressure from both legs to stop? As opposed to move forwards?!?!

How do you move forwards then?

(not being rude, but genuinly interested! :p)

Jo

No problem - I think Skib had an interesting idea for a thread. I had no idea really that riding styles were so different between countries.

Anyway, to answer your question, to move forward you: cluck; or cluck and push down and forward with your hands; or just say "walk on"; or, if none of that gets a response;) , you pulse *one* calf against the horse and release (because if you don't release he might move sideways or turn.:) ) If the horse still won't move, then do all of the above but substitute a nudge with your heel for the quick pulse with your calf.:)

With a very responsive horse, sometimes just nervous tension in the rider's legs will cue the horse to stop. Never mind how I know that.:o I reckon that's better than the opposite reaction, though - I'm glad Quanah's not trained to run off when he feels nerve-inspired leg pressure!:D

[Montana]

HI Skib,

Well, you've seen me ride, so you can tell me if I'm saying one thing and doing another:p

You're right in saying that in Western, we expect the horse to keep the gait themselves once you put them into it. Having trained Monty this way (with help from Mark R all the way!), I can't imagine any other way of riding, despite having ridden English for 18 years previously. But like Peace said, that's what we aim for;) . Not neccessarily what we always get!

The trick, as Mark explains, is to use the level of cue neccessary to get the job done (ie, the transition within a pace, or from one pace to another). Initially, this may be a fairly large use of leg against the side, not the subtle cue we'd aim to use eventually, but an interim measure. The crucial part though is to then allow the horse to continue un-cued, until they offer to slow down/break gait, at which point, you cue again. The difficult part is to ensure consistency, being clear in your own head about what speed you're aiming for. They can make the mistake of slowing/speeding up, but you need to be alert enough to spot it just as it's about to happen, and say something about it to them.

Have you seen what Mark says about the horse's barrel swing? And can you feel your legs move with the horse's barrel? If I want to maintain a pace, or increase/decrease it, I find this crucial. If I cue as his hind leg leaves the ground, it's much easier to influence the pace. The barrel will swing away from the hind leg which is stepping through.

When I do a trot transition for example, I'll very slightly exaggerate my leg swing with his barrel,and aim to 'roll' him up into his jog. It's not even a squeeze really, more a change of pace in myself. And of course, as you said, you need to breathe through it! 'Exhale on the exertion' is my new catchphrase.

Peace - I wonder if you could explain a bit more about the pressure from both legs to stop too? Is it adding weight in the heels that transfers to the seatbones. Or do your legs 'block' the forward movement? I ask because I've used bringing both legs on slowly to block a rein back that's gone on after I intended to stop. I use pressure from individual legs in the same way as you though, to move away from the leg.

[Skib]

Jo
Personal reply - at a riding school known to us both and from their regular instructor, I learned from my first lessons to halt by closing my legs round the horse. No rein. I regarded it as gospel. I regretted the way in which I was taught, but never regretted the matter I was taught, if you see what I mean. Taking the leg on method to extremes, one dressage trainer who has given clinics near here, says that, if you want a halt, all you need to do is to go rigid on the back of your horse. Works instantly.
I dont use leg on in halt any more. I was persuaded to add rein to maintain contact through the halt. Finally to get a halt with no brace, influenced by Mark Rashid and my current teacher, I've stopped using leg at all and just use exale and a little rein if necessary. But that's because I like to ride that way. I guess what I was taught in my first lessons is ultra correct.

[msp]

Well my understanding, for dressage is that a halt mainly comes from a slight bracing of the back and slightly less following hand. Then like ALL aids when/as the horse responds the aid is relaxed a bit, this is then followed up with a bit of leg to encourage the horse to step under with the hind legs into the halt and the back to come up under your seat - should feel a bit like stepping up onto a small podium as you stop.

Sounds like a mixture of the other techniques mentioned to me. Key thing is to not just brace and hold, or just pull on the reins. Whatever aid you do (assuming you want the horse to halt square and up underneath you), you need to relax as the horse responds and allow the horses back to raise, rather than press down on it.

To some extent it doesn't really matter what aids you use, the key is that the horse understands and accepts the aid and that you then remove it (ie. acknowledge that the horse is obeying). Then the horse will stop itself, probably in a square halt.

If you keep a strong aid, typically a pull on the rein, the horse will tend to halt hollow pulling against your hands with its legs whereever they happened to be at the time:)


opps hit the wrong button and lost the rest of my post, oh well..

[Peace]

Peace - I wonder if you could explain a bit more about the pressure from both legs to stop too? Is it adding weight in the heels that transfers to the seatbones. Or do your legs 'block' the forward movement? I ask because I've used bringing both legs on slowly to block a rein back that's gone on after I intended to stop. I use pressure from individual legs in the same way as you though, to move away from the leg.

The halt is cued the same way as Skib describes - "closing the legs round the horse.":) But I've noticed that Quanah doesn't really need this so much and will stop if, as you say, I drop more weight into my heels (and I guess seatbones as well) and sit a little taller.

If I keep both legs on Quanah after he's stopped I am actually asking him to continue to rein back rather than blocking him. In fact, I've been having quite a problem getting him out of reverse and back into forward.:o But now I think I know why - I think I was unintentionally keeping leg pressure on because it made me slightly nervous for him to go whizzing backwards.:o :rolleyes:

Last lesson we had to work in the barn due to a sudden downpour, and being in such a small space slowed down his reinback - which made me relax more, and presto, horse popped out of reverse and back into forward when I intended!:D

[Mehitabel]

i close my leg on and drop weight into seatbones to stop too - and i expect madam to carry on trotting until i tell her otherwise. the stopping is fairly universal, i think, the carrying on trotting at the same speed and impulsion is a showing thing - when the judge rides, we want them to have to do as little as possible.

it's the same theory in every pace - most horses need a bit of help and reminding to get round corners or on a smallish circle, but we expect them otherwise to carry on until told to do something else.

[cvb]

Skib

with respect to getting on a completely new horse to me... I think I do something similar to what Mark tells riders to do - tho I only just realised it :p You know he says to people "use the amount of pressure you want to use in the finished result" (or words to that effect).

I will start by using "my" normal set of cues and normal amount of pressure and see if that works. In 90% or more of cases it does work - but I can tell from the response how to adjust.

For example if I get a sharp response, I will tone down and be quieter. But also probably more consistent as the "sharp" horses are often are those that people ride "legs off" on and they often improve with a more consistent leg ;)

If I get a slow response, I often start by using a "quicker" aid rather than a bigger or stronger or "more" aid... and maybe back that up with some escalation. Often thats enough for the horse to tune in and go off to a lighter aid again.

I do an awful lot of listening with new horses - I know from what you've said that sometimes your instructors don't give you that time. You talked before about trying out light aid with a horse and the instructor interpretted it as not beign assertive, rather than being a "ranging shot". Please don't give up on your ranging shots - just try and sneak them in when the instructor is looking the other way ;)

You may find that actually this is easier in an "assessment session" than in an lesson. One of the things you have to do in later BHS Stage exams is assess the horse. That basically means checking out their response to aids, basic paces, ability to do lateral work. So it legitimises that "tuning in" phase as you need to be able to say "the horse does/doesn't move away from the leg" etc.

[Skib]

I asked this question and have since regained the ability to trot large.
I'll report honestly, that I used more leg than for many a month.

I was influenced by seeing four riders:
DavidH's film clip of his OH on Ed,
Pippa Funnell riding on the flat in the DVD, The Funnell Factor
the first section of Mark Rashid's DVD Finding the Try,
and in particular seeing my teacher trot and canter my lesson horse.

These are all experienced and talented riders. All used more leg than I expected. New riders get told so often not to kick their horse that it seems I went too far. None of the riders I watched rode a horse forward with no leg at all.
David and Montana spoke wisely when they said one uses what is needed for that particular horse at that moment.

[Trewsers]

Once I have asked Storm to trot on (verbally) and given a light tap on her side with my heel, she maintains the pace and rarely needs kicking or squeezing on. But then, she is an amazing horse.......:D :D (can you tell I'm just a little bit pleased with her??????!:D )

[ajhainey]

Interesting.

I aim for calf 'pulses' to trot on..I often end up on heel as I turn my toes out something chronic! I have a habit of asking every stride, it's not intentional TBH just my unstable lower leg seems to be more stable if I 'push in' as I rise, however this ask every stride seems to be what many school horses expect anyway, lucky me huh...

Both legs close around and sit deep to stop.

aj xx