Parelli - is it really that complicated?

[jenren!!]

Hello

I'd just like to talk about all this 'parelli' business. I have taken an interest with all this parelli and NH stuff and would like to start with my horse. I have nothing against his methods, he seems to have a good approach to horsemanship.
However i have seen the prices of all the level 1 dvds and equipment and i am amazed that one would pay so much just to get a better relationship with their horse. I believe that true bonding with your horse should not cost anything, if not, cheap. What does everyone think? I only need to read the theory from my books and several websites to know what to do with my horse to create a bond. I know they are out to make money, but the high price is only because of, what, over 10 dvds and books?! Is it really all that complicated? Shouldn't just you, your horse and a good NH book be all you need?
Also, in order to obtain more information, can anyone reccomend any good sites or books which will help me start groundwork and bonding? I'd just like to know what everyone's views are on this. Thanks for looking.

Jenny

[Kimo]

Yes, it's good to be skeptical and take a look at all aspects. I, myself, did just that a few years back. You're correct when you say that bonding can occur without spending $$, but PNH is more than just a bond. It's practical groundwork, catching/loading your horse, saddling, mounting, riding, etc. It's the whole enchilada.

An easy answer is that you don't need to invest in all Parelli offers. But if you're interested, start slowly by reading and borrowing from others. Then, if you feel dedicated to it, buy the materials, or take some lessons from a Parelli instructor, or attend a clinic. Don't go in debt, though!

Good luck with your search!

[Kimo]

Jenren--

Here's a link to Parelli articles on their website. Maybe worth a look...

http://www.parelli.com/info_page.php?page=article&lit_num=y&title=Articles&t=lit

[Yann]

Shouldn't just you, your horse and a good NH book be all you need?


It can certainly go a long way towards it, but my own view would be that there are a lot of small but important things you can't pick up from a book, I think you learn just as much if not more from watching competent people working too or getting some instruction and advice. The PNH programme addresses this to a degree because it sets everything out in great detail and makes it easy to follow, but I agree the prices are ruinous, and I personally find the approach too dominant. You can end up with a very attentive and responsive horse and do some very clever and impressive things with them as a result but in some cases this can come at a cost if you don't get it quite right. The approach is quite 1-2-3-bang if the horse doesn't do as it's asked, and you can potentially end up being surprisingly tough with it at times.

Not all NH is the same, most do the same thing but it's the way that you go about it that varies, its best to look at a few different trainers and schools of thought and see what you fancy and what suits you personally. There's Mark Rashid, Intelligent Horsemanship, Mike Peace and Silversand to name a few as other names to look at. For me, as good a starting point as any would be to have a look at Perfect Manners by Kelly Marks, there are some basic exercises in there which are easy to do and well explained, and a lot of good background information.

[Crystal Fire]

I don't think Pat Parelli would agree that his programme is simply about bonding with your horse. I think he believes that it is a foundation for the entire training of the handler/rider, and in later stages the horse. He believes that what he does would be a basis on which to build horses able to perform in all levels and at all disciplines.
There you go, and I'm not even a Parelli student. :)
If you don't think it's worth the money then scout around the net looking up natural horsemanship, or horsemanship, and see if you find something that suits your aims and budget better. There's plenty out there, although not all is as easily accessible.
One thing I will say, it costs a heck of a lot to get an clinician, any clinician, into the UK and run a tour of clinics and lessons for them. Mark Rashid, Lesley Desmond, the Parelli instructors... and so on... the rates to learn with them in person are pretty similar, and there's a reason for that.

[Kimo]

Crystal Fire--You're right about the cost--I didn't think about it. Here in the US you can go to the weekend PNH tours when they come near your town for a very small price. (Savvy club members are free.) Auditing a clinic is always fairly cheap. I've never participated so I can't say what that would run, but I know going to the PNH centers gets pricey.

Yann--I have a different viewpoint of the phases but it's OT for this question. (You say one-two-three-bang! but I say the goal is 4 oz. of pressure and the phase four, the strongest one, is not a "bang!" unless you're in danger of being hurt. In a nutshell the phases are resting your fingers on hair, then skin, then muscle, then bone. If you try it on yourself you'll feel it. Sorry to ramble on about this in Jenren's post.)

[Crystal Fire]

I've been there and done it. The way you get to the soft 4 ozs of pressure is by being prepared to go 1,2,3,4 bang in the first place. You have to have something to back up if your 4ozs of pressure doesn't work, and that's the purpose of the 4 phases. It is the way that Parelli can teach a way that all students can be effective when they ask their horse to do something. Pat certainly doesn't wait until he is in danger to use phase 4, he uses it if the horse doesn't respond to his request as required. I don't see the big deal with it, people all over the world use this approach when training horses. Others don't, and that's their (our) choice.
Oh... sorry... I promise not to digress again :)
I am involved in bringing a very popular clinician over from Aus to teach. I have also been involved in organising Parelli clinics. You need to pay for air fares, transport in the country, accommodation, food... The clinician also has to make a living, bearing in mind that they don't exactly work full time. Most clinics need to have at least 6 riders just for the tour to break even. And that doesn't give the clinician any massive income. It's nice to get some full with 10 riders, because they make up for the ones where people drop out at the last minute etc.
It's a nightmare. Good quality equipment is also difficult to get very cheaply. All very stressfull :D

[jenren!!]

Thank you for all your replies. The article is very good kimo, i may try these games with my mare. There are so many different trainers out there, it's hard to pick! I have to say i agree with everything that has been said. Could anyone give me a list of all the trainers i can look up? I only know of a couple. Would a mixture of exercises from different trainers be a good idea? For example, using the seven games by parelli and perhaps mixing in a couple of exercises from Mark Rashid? Thanks again

Jenny

[michelle c]

pat states in one of his dvd's that the phases are different for different types of horses. for instance he says that if your horse is sensitive phases can go like this: phase 1 Lead the horse, phase 2 Lift the stick, phase 3 Wiggle the stick, phase 4 swing the stick (in his personal space)!! for phase 4 it can be swinging the stick and string from about 3 meters away from the horse to actually touching the horse, it is not meant to hurt the horse it is meant to make it uncomfortable for the horse so it learns to react to lower stumulus. some horses feel uncomfortable with the stick swinging 3 meaters away while others will not even notice it and react when it actually comes in to contact with them. I think it is up to the owner to know their horse and its sensitivity and make judgement on how to use the phases!!!

[ponylover88]

Watch what you look for, its no longer PNH over in the UK its Equine Ethology. Parelli and the BHS fell out, and the UK no longer has the rights to call it Parelli.

[Crystal Fire]

some horses feel uncomfortable with the stick swinging 3 meaters away
What, even after they've perfected the Friendly Game? :)
I don't think Parelli and the BHS fell out, I think the people who ran the UK Parelli agency decided to go in a different direction, and PNH decided that it wasn't compatable with their agency contract.
I haven't been to a PNH Savvy Conference for years, but I'm going to the Equine Ethology one this year, as I think that it's great that they will now be able to host a variety of different trainers who use different approaches. Ray Hunt should be really interesting.

[blackhorses]

I agree with the cost side of things, I went to a parelli demo and then a workshop and I have to say what a load of rubbish!! I was certainly not impressed with the "games" I was given 2 horses to try it out on and they were fed up and switched off totally after 5 secs, I have never seen horses use this kind of body language to each other, you don't see horses physically pushing each other around, they just use posture, facial expressions and contact, in the form of a bite or kick if absolubtly necesary and generally it is the low ranking horses with little confidence who resort to physical contact. I would certainly never use any of his methods on my horses as I would only bore them and show them I was of a lower rank. Sorry that's just my opinion, I do like other means of NH training, I'm a fan of some of Claus Hempflings ideas, and some of the old style trainers who favour the less gadgets the better philosophy.

[Crystal Fire]

Where was that blackhorses? Are you in the UK? Never heard of an accredited Parelli trainer giving people horses to use as part of a workshop... and certainly never two horses.
My mare is definitely top ranking horse in my field, and she must be very unusual because she does make physical contact if the others don't wake up and move quickly enough. She generally bites their bum :)

[99E]

No, it's not that complicated.
Actually, the underlying principles are quite easy to grasp.
The rest of it is basically "just" exercises and little games to help you remember the theory and get comfortable using it.

And yet you NEED the Savvy Systems...
Because, unlike what a LOT of people think, Parelli isn't about training horses - it's about teaching people to train horses.
And that's what you are tought, effectively and quickly, through Savvy System 1-3 - because you get alle the principles AND how to use them - and your told again and again, in different ways, how to be "natural" around your horse.

If you think the Savvy Systems are THAT expensive, try thinking of them all as being AT LEAST 3 years of teaching!
Then they seem rather cheap, I think!!!

(The same amount of money I have to pay for a Savvy System would buy me 10-12 lessons by a local non-parelli "classical dressage" instructor or a western instructor - my husband started off completely green with a completely green horse with the old L1 package about three years ago and now we're "somwhere en L3"...)

[KateWooten]

books which will help me start groundwork and bonding?

For an easy, quick and extremely cost-effective start to groundwork, you can't do much better than Clinton Anderson's 'Downunder Horsemanship: Establishing Respect and Control for the English and Western Rider'. It's $16.47 on Amazon, really easy to follow, great pictures, with real life examples of 2 students following the program. Information for money, this is the best material I've bought.

Last year I investigated as many different triners as I could (here in the US) and wherever I could, bought their entry-level book, dvd or whatever. Almost all were just introductions to their program - hooking you in by the theory, but not giving much away that you could actually go out and do. CA's book was the only one that you can really work from. I started my first colt just using this book, and he worked out superbly. It's not even a colt-starting book, but he explains his theory and methods so well that you feel that you can create appropriate lessons for your horse without being hand-held every step.

Kate

[Just.Jump]

I agree with the cost side of things, I went to a parelli demo and then a workshop and I have to say what a load of rubbish!! I was certainly not impressed with the "games" I was given 2 horses to try it out on and they were fed up and switched off totally after 5 secs, I have never seen horses use this kind of body language to each other, you don't see horses physically pushing each other around, they just use posture, facial expressions and contact, in the form of a bite or kick if absolubtly necesary and generally it is the low ranking horses with little confidence who resort to physical contact. I would certainly never use any of his methods on my horses as I would only bore them and show them I was of a lower rank. Sorry that's just my opinion, I do like other means of NH training, I'm a fan of some of Claus Hempflings ideas, and some of the old style trainers who favour the less gadgets the better philosophy.

Totally wrong. Go to your local library and rent out some natural geographic videos of wild horses. Go watch your lead mare at your barn. "contact" is pushing physically.
Stallions physically drive their mares forward when moving them or removing them from dangerous situations. Horses like lead mares push any unsavory horses away from them physically, as do any other horses when they want space from an offending horse.

Horses don't read facial expression- granted, they do make facial expressions, but unlike people, they do not read those. They may notice ears going back and teeth barred, but not pursed lips, bumpy skin around the mouth, etc. They read body language, body direction, and body energy (in the form of moving, yet not outright herding).

In NH, the act of chasing the horses is supposed to have the effect of herding.

Whether or not it is a matter of not working, you don't know what natural really is yet.

[Yann]

There's always lots of talk about horses driving, kicking and biting each other when discussing training methods, but very little about their cooperative nature and their desire for a quiet life and companionship. I think that aspect is sometimes underestimated.

[horsecrazychick]

I agree that all of the expensive equipment and dvds is stupid, but if Parelli put everything in paperback books and sold them for 10 dollars each, then he wouldn't make as much $$$!!! I know we'd all like to think that every horse trainer is out there to just help horses, but they have to make money too. =)

Anyway here's what I did:
Research parelli and NH in general on the internet and print out all 7 games and whatever else you can find.(I also liked the join-up, but parelli doesn't do that). Try them w/ your horse and just see how it goes. You don't have to stick right to the book- you can mix things up, alter them to suit your individual horse better, or whatever. If you decide you absolutely LOVE parelli and must have more than you can buy the lvl 1 packet, but I have to warn you that the DVDs are a LOT of extra talking and EXTREMEly boring(in my opinion, no offense!) Also I found that if you've done really well w/ the 7 games, your horse is already done w/ level one and putting them thru the complete program again would be terribly boring. If you do buy the lvl 1 don't write in it at first, because if you later decide you don't like it and it's still in good condition, you can sell it for almost what you paid!

[horsecrazychick]

There's always lots of talk about horses driving, kicking and biting each other when discussing training methods, but very little about their cooperative nature and their desire for a quiet life and companionship. I think that aspect is sometimes underestimated.
Please tell that to my horses! Go watch my horses out in pasture and the words 'cooperative', 'quiet', or 'companionship' will NOT come to mind!
I'm not disagreeing with you though, my horses are just abnormally insane. Oh well I luv 'em! lol

[Jumping Genius]

in my opinion no not when you have a good trainer. Pat parelli made it hard sometimes but when my trainer explained it it helped a lot i would have to say that it reall yis a good thing.

[Yann]

Please tell that to my horses!

Fair enough, but it's worth remembering that the way we keep them can have a strong influence on how they behave, things like the amount and type of turnout, feed regime and the size of the pasture to name but a few. I'm lucky enough to keep my horse at a place where the turnout is large enough to allow the herd to roam to different places during the day. Fight injuries are extremely rare.

[Francis Burton]

There's always lots of talk about horses driving, kicking and biting each other when discussing training methods, but very little about their cooperative nature and their desire for a quiet life and companionship. I think that aspect is sometimes underestimated.
It certainly is if you only have National Geographic documentaries to go on! They are, of course, edited to show more of the exciting stuff (births, deaths, sex and violence) and less of the more subtle (=boring) stuff which takes up 99% of horses' time budgets. The commentaries tend to sensationalize behaviour too, and they invariably witter on about how equine society revolves around the dominance hierarchy.

[cvb]

in my opinion no not when you have a good trainer. Pat parelli made it hard sometimes but when my trainer explained it it helped a lot i would have to say that it reall yis a good thing.

sure - but what does that trainer cost you, say, in a year ?

And what if you are in an area where there aren't any local NH trainers - how do you get "the next best thing" ?

In order for distance learning programmes to really work, they need to be designed in a way that will allow people with different learning styles to work with the same programme. The course design costs money, the printing, duplicating etc, costs money. The ship, distribution etc... costs money...

[Afellpony]

The book 'Perfect Manners' by Kelly Marks is excellent. I've been reading this book for a while now and have applied a lot of it to training Falcon. She speaks very good sense. I can thoroughly recommend this book to anyone who is considering schooling and/or breaking. She talks a lot of sense and has some wonderful ideas! I used (and still use this book).

[smaggi]

For an easy, quick and extremely cost-effective start to groundwork, you can't do much better than Clinton Anderson's 'Downunder Horsemanship: Establishing Respect and Control for the English and Western Rider'.

I'm not trying to start a war but, I agree Kate. Clinton's videos and books are a lot cheaper and worth the money. I bought Clinton Anderson's 'Downunder Horsemanship: Establishing Respect and Control on the Ground DVD and Riding with Confidence I DVD. It was the best money I ever spent. He gives lots of information. On the DVD he uses his own horse first to show the end result of the exercise, then he teaches a lazy horse and a flighty horse on a lot of the exercises, so that you can see how to modify the method for your horse. Then he discusses toubleshooting potential problems with the horse and the exercise and how to correct them. Then he discusses potential handler problems with the exercise.

I wanted to start the Parelli system and went to one of his clinics. I didn't because his stuff was so expensive. Also when anyone asked a question during the clinic, he only told you what level it was answered in. He didn't give you any other help or suggestions. He also did not explain in any detail the steps he was using to work with the horses in the clinic. Most of the clinic was watching a bunch of his students work with their horses as a group.

In Clinton's clinic, he esplained what he was doing with the horse in detail. He took questions and answered them thoroughly during the demo. At the end of the demo he had a question and answer session.

[jenren!!]

Hi, thanks for all your views. I have to say i am a fan of Kelly Marks, am thinking of saving up and buying her 'perfect partners' book but then someone suggested the 'perfect manners' book, erm...what's the difference between the two?!

Jenny

[Yann]

Perfect Manners is the best book to start with, it covers all the basics of how horses tick and how to work with that and includes a set of basic groundwork exercises which are well explained with lots of plan B's to try if plan A doesn't work. You won't get your horse performing impressive manoevres at the wiggle of a finger from doing them but they should help improve your relationship. There's lots of advice on dealing with common difficulties too.
Perfect Partners covers the day to day relationship with your horse in more depth and contains lots more help and advice with a slant towards ridden problems as well.

If you're in West Yorkshire there's one of Kelly's accredited trainers (RA's) based there who you could always have out to give you a groundwork lesson to help get you started, you'd definitely get a lot out of it:)

[mayS]

"I have to say i agree with everything that has been said. Could anyone give me a list of all the trainers i can look up? I only know of a couple."

There are MANY great trainers who follow NH principles. If you looked you could probably find a few locally who can do session with you & your horse.

" Would a mixture of exercises from different trainers be a good idea? For example, using the seven games by parelli and perhaps mixing in a couple of exercises from Mark Rashid? "

Noooo... Parelli stuff is very rigid. With Parelli it's a step-by-step thing and they won't let you go on to Step B until you've completed Step A exactly the way Parelli specifies. You also have to commit to doing alot of Parelli before you can expect to solve a given problem; you can't just pick one of the "7 Games" and expect it to suddenly solve a horse who won't trailer-load. Expect to invest ALOT of money & time into Parelli before you should expect results.

I have to say of all the methods Parelli has got to be the most expensive. Even group lessons with only a Level 1 certified instructor are $25 a lesson (and it takes MANY of these before you even finish the 7 Games properly). Then they almost demand you buy all Parelli-brand products. Don't think about showing up at a sanctioned Parelli Clinic with an offbrand rope halter. :D

In order to get the most out of the different trainers, you'll need to have some basic understanding of the how's and why's behind their actions. Don't always assume all NH will agree either. For example some feel horses automatically give to pressure, some say horses must be taught to give (or not to give) to pressure, and I'm just finishing up Monty Roberts one book where he says horses may lean *into* physical pressure in certian circumstances.

You can't just open up a book, do Exercise 1-2-3, and expect to be communicating with your horse better. Even worse is trying Trainer A's Exercise 2 and then trying Trainer B's Exercise 7 and then Trainer C's Exercise 11... if nothing else you may end up confusing your horse (and probably yourself)

For a study-at-home training program, John Lyons puts out a nice one. For books that seek to explain horse thinking, herds, communication, etc I enjoyed the Mark Rashid books. I just got a neat book with lots of pictures called "horsemanship through feel" (?) which shows step-by-step different ways to convey things to a horse.

But despite all the nice books and videos, nothing replaces seeing these techniques done in person. Look for seminars at Expos, clinics, and trainer-specific lessons. Also here in the US we have a TV channel called RFD-TV which features many, many great horse trainers & shows.

[FRED]

I think{although I hate the word} savvy can't really be taught, its something you know from practical hands on experience and helped by studies.

Look at a 'horse licking and chewing' in a real herd, I wouldn't want that from my horse ever caused by me, not when you see how it works in a real life environment.

Look for the positive,no you don't have to 'bang' your horse, so much negative stuff is writen and nonsense too, only a fool would believe horse are all sweetness and light, but you don't need to be rough/harsh to get a healthy understanding.

Today I have been watching the fell ponies in Cumbria,food is very scarse at the moment and inbetween finding food, the ponies still had time to play.
Ring any bells that...

[Jumping Genius]

sure - but what does that trainer cost you, say, in a year ?

And what if you are in an area where there aren't any local NH trainers - how do you get "the next best thing" ?

In order for distance learning programmes to really work, they need to be designed in a way that will allow people with different learning styles to work with the same programme. The course design costs money, the printing, duplicating etc, costs money. The ship, distribution etc... costs money...
well i understand that but luckily my trainer is very inexpensive and doesnt just train me in parelli. and the thing about the area you are in...well that cant be helped but the videos do help sometimes. the thing is nothing is better than just working over and over. adn i was lucky enough to learn from a horse that knew how the games worked so i learned the correctr weay by example but for those who dont have that example well the books and videos are the next best thing and a program isnt that easy to make if you think about it. i mean everything in this world cost money but we could make a cheaper way to distributea easy to use program.