Kung Fu Connection

[LodgeRopes]

As we read more of different Natural Horsemanship clinicians, are we the only ones that note the common backgrounds in chinese martial arts?
Tai chi, bagua, h'sing I and other internal martial arts seem to be mentioned.

Me, myself, I have many years involved with Hung Fut, a shaolin temple animal based style that involves low stances and internal power. Horse stance was the first thing i learnt..........and 15 years later, i am still trying to master the horse stance.

I have some ideas, but does anyone else have any thoughts on the relevance/importance/benefits of martial arts cross training.

[teabiscuit]

sally swift's book "centered riding" mentions Tai Chi I think

[LodgeRopes]

Sally Swift uses a lot of 'grounding' from martial arts......a strange concept for some, but a real experience for others.
Balance is the aim...

[teabiscuit]

i love her approach

[LodgeRopes]

Sally Swift has an approach that is aimed at totally involving the rider into the equation of horse riding.
Any other contributions???

[cvb]

Sally Swift also uses a lot of Alexander technique ideas.

PP reputedly did Kung Fu
Mark R does Aikido and is black belt somethingth dan... (can't remember what exactly).

Anything that requires physical control and promotes good "use" is going to be a candidate for a good fit with riding. There is always some comments about ballet using different muscles but I wonder how much that is gripes ?

[ambatt]

As a method of training and body discipline and the use of energy to achieve a closer relationship with your horse, it seems valid. Although Rashid has lost me a little on his current theories and training as I do find them a little esoteric.

[LodgeRopes]

Esoteric?????
Try being a Taoist horseman hippy biker buddhist scumbag...now that esoteric

[LodgeRopes]

lol.......not really a scumbag :0)

[teabiscuit]

not well up on NH stuff, just read the sally swift book some time ago and loved the soft eyes, the building block, the breathing and the video camera ideas and i wish i was able to carry out one third of her suggestions. i keep trying and some days i feel really part of the horse , others i feel like a block of lard.

[LodgeRopes]

I have been joking on this thread.......... only to disguise the deep feelings i have in relation to horses and martial arts.
How can you explain the meaning of life.........42 but the question was incorrect....ok, lets get past that slight error...........
balance...emotional & physical.

[teabiscuit]

i have no idea what you're on about LR please make yourself clearer? Life the universe and everything :)

[LodgeRopes]

Tea... all this was bought on by my sifu asking what has my interst in horse training contributed to my "kung fu". I find the evaluation process interesting and open for input from anyone that has a horse or a thought.
.

[cvb]

ambatt - have you seen Leslie Desmond ? <image of head exploding>

LodgeRopes

I don't "do" a martial art. I DO "do" management and find myself reflecting often how what I learn on one side lends to the other :o I had a colleague who was.... passionate shall we say... about certain issues. This led to conflict with another colleague, and I ended up "piggy in the middle" (as project manager of a project they were both working on). I didn't handle it as well as I might... and as such it got suggested I should do some work on "emotional intelligence". (Interestingly the original colleague left, and the suggestion then got lost/dropped - so where exactly was the problem ???). Anyway, in slightly different language "emotional fitness" is something that is part of the PNH journey (if not the n.h. journey).

I suspect I deal better with "passionate" horses than bolshie work-mates ;)

[teabiscuit]

i've participated in a handful of karate lessons and a couple of tai chi sessions and found the suppling exercises helpful for riding, the centering and balancing invloved was helpful too. the awareness of your body that martial arts develops is excellent for riding- i can think of lots of good things that way round but horse training contributing to martial arts?
builds strength in your legs, teaches balance, not much help, sorry but thanks for making an interesting link between martial arts and riding.:)

[LodgeRopes]

Cathy, your ability to equate an esoteric concept to reality is amazing..... no wonder fi apreciates you.
emotional & physical fitness dictates our training programe....that is why we have Gypsy being bitted at 5 yo after 2 years on the hacksamore.

[cvb]

LodgeRopes

I loved an idea someone else had of using PNH "phases" in email correspondence :D

[raingodz]

When I was 11 my dad thought it would be a good idea if I did Kung Fu and Tai Chi, to improve my balance and cordination, and did find it did benifit me in this way, but it was another thing I gave up 16 years ago...

I did do Tai Chi and Kung Fu (in the form of Chinese Physical Culture) when I was recovering from an accident and it was quite good, but sadly I did not get on with the politics of the organisation so I gave it up.

I also had quite few alexander technique session to balance me out after learning to walk again. I did find it very frustrating to begin with, but my starting point was not very favorable.

I would be very interested in doing some riding lessons with an alexander technique trained RI as I know I am a little uneven at the moment if I am not careful, but it can be a bit hard to tell while I am riding.... *thinks* must get some photos of me riding so I can see...

[Kimo]

My husband asked PP once if he did martial arts, and Pat replied with a wink and said, "Aikido." What tipped us off was the 4 oz. of pressure, which is a common idea in Kung Fu.

I've done the martial version of Tai Chi and it has amazing similarities to natural horsemanship.

The willow bends a thousand ways... ;)

[raingodz]

I suspect I deal better with "passionate" horses than bolshie work-mates ;)
I agree with that, if I get problems with bolshie work-mates I tend to hide in the server room :rolleyes: - but it is the right of technicians to hide in a server room at the first sign of trouble, it was one of the first things they taught us at techie school (along with how to solve 90% of problems by shrugging your shoulders, rebooting the computer and shuffling away quoting lines from Monty Python)

[ambatt]

ambatt - have you seen Leslie Desmond ? <image of head exploding>


Have I? Do I need to? Will look on t'internet and report back.

[teabiscuit]

quoting cvb "loved an idea someone else had of using PNH "phases" in email correspondence"
is this what you NHers do in this forum? no wonder i can never understand what you're on about :D
controversial thought-what if the horses feel the sme way ?
please don't take offence

[ambatt]

Ah yes, I have found the Leslie Desmond website (and the Desmond Leslie website which was far more entertaining and esoteric).

I thought I was getting to grips with Monty, Pat, Mark and Ga Wa Ni and now there are hundreds of the little NH blighters. How can I ever hope to understand it all and be objective??

This is without the added distraction of martial arts, zen philosophy, chi and yin and yang (although I have been know to hang out on the Zen dressage site, I kid you not!)

I am of to perambulate my canines and give this some thought.

[cvb]

Leslie Desmond reckons the action happens on the release - not on the cue. She is AMAZING to watch in action...but it will blow your mind...

[cvb]

quoting cvb "loved an idea someone else had of using PNH "phases" in email correspondence"
is this what you NHers do in this forum? no wonder i can never understand what you're on about :D
controversial thought-what if the horses feel the sme way ?
please don't take offence

teabiscuit - actually the horses are far less backward in letting us know when that happens :o

We have a 4 yr old that came to us in Dec. If she doesn't "get" what we are asking, she just stands there and looks at us, from under her forelock, with that knowing look :p

We have a 34 yr old (horse) that has that look down to a T

and the two in between just do what they think we want them to do, which can have some interesting results :cool:

[ambatt]

I see that Leslie Desmond will be coming to the UK - there is a clinic about an hour and a half away from me.

[Yann]

Isn't the mental discipline a big part of it, if not the biggest part that can be transferred to dealing with horses? Never done martial arts, not my pigeon, but my reading of Mark Rashid would certainly seem to suggest this?

[cvb]

Yann

I guess ANY sport done "seriously" requires mental discipline, but martial arts give you an approach to that discipline ?

[Francis Burton]

I have some ideas, but does anyone else have any thoughts on the relevance/importance/benefits of martial arts cross training.
Teabiscuit mentioned the benefits for riding in terms of improved balance and body awareness. I think there are similar benefits for ground handling too. Because horses communicate largely with body language, an increased awareness of the position and movement of one's body in space, that of the horse, and how they relate and coordinate, must be helpful. Knowing what a horse is doing in every moment, anticipating where parts of the horse (e.g. head) are going, and being able to react swiftly to sudden movement - these are all likely to improve safety around horses.

Peripheral vision is important too. Mark Rashid talks about this in his latest book. It is amazing how much more you are able to notice going on around you if you train up your peripheral vision (for me, simply a matter of resisting the temptation to look directly at everything, and practicing directing attention away from the direction of gaze). By making more use of peripheral vision, you are becoming a little more like your horse.

I think it may also also about being able to sustain a higher level of awareness continuously without putting in a great deal of effort to do so. Although I haven't done martial arts myself, I imagine this is one result of the training.

[teabiscuit]

FB i thought of that last night- both martial arts and horse training involve developing an intense awareness of another living creature, and developing the ability to read their body language almost instinctively. its somethjing you can't help because if you don't develop this awareness you stand a chance of getting hurt, and there's no teacher like pain :)

[Tots N Dots]

Isn't the mental discipline a big part of it

(please forgive strange sounding mindset, too much coffee / not enough sleep)

I have done Ninjutsu, I chose this as it is full contact, no padding, and deals a lot with history etc, it makes my mind work not just my body, getting the s**t kicked out of me twice a week was great for my stress levels, and blimy was I fit,

I wonder if it is more the understanding of the inner self than the mental discipline side? I feel that to get the best out of a horse I have to be calm and "at peace" with myself to be able to focus properly, I find the horses a great way to escape the stresses of life, but if I am hassled or upset then can get nowhere, if I am happy with my inner self, all things horse just seem to flow rather than be an effort,

off to get chocolate to suppliment the coffee ;)

[Francis Burton]

if I am happy with my inner self, all things horse just seem to flow rather than be an effort,
Yes! When I started with horses, I noticed that there would be good days when everything just seemed to flow, and bad days when it didn't. For some time I wondered what was making the difference between good and bad days. Eventually I came to the conclusion that, while random external events did have an effect, it mainly came down to how I was feeling on the day. On good days, I was relaxed and at peace with myself and my surroundings. Having things go badly would me feel less peaceful, which would tend to make things continue to go badly - and vice versa. Recognizing this was the first step in being able to influence the situation, and now it comes more or less naturally (though being thrown 'off-balance' because of something else that happens, not related to horses, still has potential to mess things up!).

[Greentchr]

What an interesting thread!
I have never thought about it before.
I practiced Aikido when I was younger (25 years+ ago), and learned a lot during those few years. Besides being able to subdue annoying people("grab my hand, will you":) ) in a painless (if they did not resist) manner, it gave me a 'feel' for people and things around me. I am not sure how to explain it... I guess it allowed me to develop an awareness that I never knew existed. One of the exercises that occured later on in training was to have multiple attackers on the one being tested. It has been a long time... but I remember the different state one had to be in to be successful. One had to be completely relaxed, but totally aware. Complete stillness, but able to join instantly in motion. The same abilities are what make a safe and effective horseman.

I think Aikido is a good fit with horsemanship, because it is a very 'connected' method. Perhaps that is not the right term... It is totally defensive in nature, never offensive. There are no offensive moves in Aikido. The idea is to join the 'attacker', using his strength/motion to resolve his aggression. It is a very peaceful, almost gentle, 'sport', done correctly, yet very strong and effective.

Horsemanship requires an innate awareness. It is what keeps us safe and able to be a good leader. In examining this idea, I think I am better able to connect both with humans and horses as a result of my martial arts training, no matter how long ago it was. It gave me a sensitivity not only to body language, but to the infinitesimal changes in intention and attitude. It even made me a better sailor, able to 'feel' the wind.

:) Thanks for bringing this up. It made me think.

[MelanieD]

I used to do kung-fu and as I'm quite small and don't break easily the instructor used to like to use me to demonstrate throws and really send me flying, good way to impress the beginners :D It does seem to have had a very good effect on how I land when falling off horses. Did some full contact kick boxing as well and got pretty good at ignoring pain which comes in very handy when fatso is bouncing on my foot :D

[katefarmer]

As we read more of different Natural Horsemanship clinicians, are we the only ones that note the common backgrounds in chinese martial arts?
I have some ideas, but does anyone else have any thoughts on the relevance/importance/benefits of martial arts cross training.

I've certainly heard the comparison before, too. However, as others have said, I think it's really about focus, feel and timing - those famous cornerstones of just any sport. Any sports psychologist can tell you that these are the factors that will make the difference between winning and losing - and will often override physical skill.

I haven't noticed that people with martial arts experience learn to read and interact with horses any quicker or better than anyone else... but there is a difference between those with more mental and physical self control and the rest - and these tend to be sports people - and usually those in competitive sports. What I mean there is it's not just physical fitness, it's mental attitude and discipline. Centred riding, Inner Game of Tennis, martial arts, NH, - they all have certain things in common. I guess to that extent, cross training may be beneficial in as much as the more you practise, the better you get - even if it's in different contexts.

Cheers

kate
www.harmony-project.net

[Fizz]

:p have to say the only thing my teaching kung-fu has done for my horse is i have good balance & a not bad bank balance :D