rising trot without stirrups a bad idea?

[Susara]

I'm taking extra riding lessons from a pretty old-style :-) instructor. To a large extent I enjoy his very structured and conservative approach to riding, but sometimes his opinions are just so different from what I'm used to.

One of the things he's very strict about is not clinging with the thighs, and he explained that when doing the rising trot the weight is on the stirrups. Now I've made it my goal in life to try and get _away_ from relying on my stirrups (a very bad habit I have, or so I thought) esp in rising. In my astonshment I asked him what one is supposed to do when practising rising trot without stirrups; his answer surprised me even more. He said it makes no sense to practice rising trot without stirrups, it only teaches one to cling with the thighs and knees. In fact, he said rising without stirrups is just fooling around. Stirrupless work is wonderful for developing the seat, he says, but then you do sitting trot, not rising.

Any opinions?

[Bay Mare]

I don't know the 'correct' answer to your question but we always did some 'rising' trot work without stirrups and I don't know if it's just me that's weird or what but I couldn't do it if I was gripping. If anything it was really good for getting the 'forwards and backwards' movement rather than the 'up and down'.

[Whatanejit]

Like bay mare, I am not an expert but I love doing rising trot without stirrups. I always grip with my lower leg, not my thighs and knees (like all students I used to grip with thighs and knees).

This practice came in very handy at new year when I was hacking out an ex race horse who took off on me from a standstill in gallop - his spin meant I lost a stirrup and boy did I put that stirrupless lower leg on. Ok, this may have made him go faster but at least I didn't fall off - longest 90 seconds of my life!

I'll be interested to hear what the others think.

xx

[Susara]

the idea of gripping this guy's horse (I have lessons on his OTTB) with my lower leg is terrifying! This horse will go trot-gallop in one stride if you try that :-) I think in part it is because he's recently off the tracks, but also his owner rides with almost no leg aids; you can quite easily transition up with only your seat. It's a bit scary for someone like me without a very quiet seat, because the horse will start trotting just because I've moved my weight back a bit, sometimes without intending to.

[Mehitabel]

when i do and teach rising trot with no stirrups, it is all coming from the stomach muscles. it is a 'pelvic thrust' done by tightening the lower stomach muscles and the back muscles and moving the hips forward over the pommel of the saddle - ther is inevitably some gripping just above the knee, to give some leverage for actually moving the backside out of the saddle, otherwise you just shuffle round, but i dont; grip with my knee or lower leg - i'd be in orbit if i did on petal.

i think it is a useful exercise in moderation, to give the lightbulb moment of the correct technique for rising trot. i don't like using it for hours and hours and forcing people to bump around until they are exhausted - that just tears muscles and sets up tension in both horse and rider.

when you sit normally, your weight is across your inner thighs, mostly, and you think about pushing it down through your heel so you dont grip up.
when rising, yes, more of it transfers to your stirrups, because your thigh is moving.
if you push too much weight down through your heels and past your stirrups in rising trot, you pivot on your knee, the lower leg shoots forward and you lose balance backward. this is a common side effect of 'heels down' - instead, i say 'knee and heel down and back' - which is better for maintaining leg position and balance.

rising trot with no stirrups is very easy to get wrong, and there are ways of teaching what you learn from it without it - so i can see where he is coming from. often peopel confuse 'weight in the stirrups' with 'push up off your stirrups' which loosens the leg position and makes your lower leg wobble.

[Afellpony]

I too have done rising trot without stirrups and it certainly teaches you not to rise too high, also to use balance instead of grip. Gripping with the lower leg is rather unusual to say the least, as well as being incorrect. Apart from anything else gripping pushes you out of the saddle. As the lower leg is used to give the horse the aid to go faster, I wonder why you employed that method of staying on when the horse took off. If I did that on Falcon, we'd beat the train into London!!

[Rob26]

I wanted to have a go at rising trot without stirrups but my RI wouldn't let me.. she said it'd encourage me to grip with my knees.

My rising trot is improving no end and crumbs do I ache after yesterday.. I was really put through it!

I still get confused by what should be gripping and what shouldn't. I get told to imagine touching my heels underneath the horse which gives my lower leg a reasonable contact with the horse.. but I wouldn't wanna ride another horse and for it to shoot off cos my leg was too tight.

People say sitting trot is hard... I find it really easy and could do it all day, I have to be told to 'go rising' by my RI cos im so comfortable in sitting trot. Out of all the gaits, its the rising part of trot which i'm having to work most on... it's not bad but there's room for improvement.

So what exactly should be gripping? if anything.. damn legs!

[teabiscuit]

sitting trot easy? Rob26 you lucky b*gg*r! i'm speechless with envy and admiration :)

[Whatanejit]

Oops! Wrong choice of words on my part :o :o

My RI always asks us to wrap our lower leg around the horse and to feel the contact - try not to wobble leg etc.

when we do rising trot without stirrups I try to concentrate on the feel of the lower leg position but yes you are right I do just push my hips forward I don't grip and jump out of the saddle:eek:

She has spent a long time trying to get our knees off the saddle - apart from the jumping classes.

I hope I havn't got this all wrong:confused: :confused:

I agree with Rob 26, though - who what where why with the leg contact???

xx

[1 morejump]

humm, I'm not entierly sure on this one. I haven't ever heard someone say that about posting without stirrups. I guess the mentality behind it is since your legs hurt when you finish then it must be good for you. Humm, requires more thought.....

[Just.Jump]

From what I've been taught, your trainer is a fool, pardon me for saying so. The goal at *my* barn is that if your posting, you are not relying on the stirrups, because it produces a leg that wobbles around (because obviously, stirrups are mobile) and an unbalanced rider- you are riding the horse, not standing in stirrups. As an extensive bareback rider, posting without stirrups is perfectly fine- the purpose is to strengthen the rider, and spare the horses back if they bounce like a sack of potatos.

You don't grip with the knees- you let your thighs transfer the motion of the horse into your seat and propel it in the posting style. It's not particularly hard, though it tends to look a little stupid if the rider is over enthusiastic.

Learn to do it. If you ever go to a show and lose a stirrup, instead of losing out on placement for stopping and replacing the stirrup, you should know how to make due without it- I've watched Spruce Meadows competitions (grand prix) where the rider has lost his stirrup and kept going- and didn't do half bad!

[Susara]

What you guys say really makes sense, but I have to put in a defence of the guy :-). I was really surprised at his opinion, not only because it doesn't fit with what I've learned, but also it doesn't fit in with his general way of doing things.

Like I've said, he is pretty conservative; we've had about 6 lessons already and I'm still only working on my position and seat in the walk! (I don't mind, my whole point with taking extra lessons is because I've been riding for a few years but the basics aren't in place.) He is one of those 'there's only one right way to do things' people - sometimes I find this irritating, but it's also a relief to see someone really serious about doing things correctly. Just weird that he'd see rising with your weight in your stirrups as correct.

[Wally]

My take on rising trot is, you should't have the weight in your stirrups overly on the rise phase, neither should there be any tension and gripping in your thigh.

Rising without stirrups is not a rise out of the saddle, this would disturb your, and the horses' balance. A rise without stirrups is a soft, easy, effortless roll forwards and up, not out of the saddle.

You thigh has to be soft and relaxed, Rising trot and canter are things which always seem to make learner riders try just too hard. Stop putting so much effort into it and give the illusion of rising.

[Rob26]

Like Wally says.. i've found the less effort I put in the better the rising trot gets.

I'd like to have a go at rising without stirrups but if the RI says no i'm kind of stuck. :(

[de_Stille_een]

I think the rising trot without stirrups helps improve your strength and such, but I personally never saw the point of it-- you have to cling with your knees and thighs to push yourself out of the saddle-- it doesn't make sense.

However, the seated trot is very beneficial, especially without stirrups. It teaches you to relax into the horse's gait and move with the horse, instead of clinging and trying to force yourself into the saddle.

[teabiscuit]

it is very benificial,(sitting trot) i find it quite challenging though

[Rob26]

sitting trot easy? Rob26 you lucky b*gg*r! i'm speechless with envy and admiration :)

I think my long legs seem to help, I love sitting trot without stirrups too.

The other thing I seem to be able to do is get myself on the right diagonal in rising 95% of the time.. and I can 'feel' when i'm on the wrong one.. It just doesn't feel right, so I sit for 2 and I can feel the difference right away.

My RI says i'm lucky with the sitting trot and feeling the right diagonal :D

[Floob]

I have a really good instructor, very open minded and experienced, but she refuses to do any rising trot without stirrups until a rider can do a rising trot with stirrups, a good sitting trot with and without stirrups and a balanced position at walk trot and canter. Her idea being that if you do not have a good basic seat to start off with you will just grip with your legs when trying too hard to rise.
So maybe if he is going right back down to esatblish the basics with you, then he doesn't want to go into rising trot without stirrups.

I don't know really

[ConfettiPony]

I've done rising trot without stirrups before, but it was only an occasional thing. I think my instructors would only do it once your seat was already very balanced and steady (I'm not saying that anybody's in here isn't, but I have no idea what level anybody is).

I think it's a good exercise as a more once in a while thing, but if you were doing it for long periods every lesson it could be harmful... But then again it would also depend on the rider (and how good he/she was at not gripping, etc.)

I hate it though. Kills my stomache muscles. Ouch!

[Just.Jump]

So what exactly should be gripping? if anything.. damn legs!

If you're going to grip with anything, it has to be the thighs. Obviously, if you are on a rampant horse and you bind your calves around the horse, that is the go signal.

As a bareback rider of 4 years, you really shouldn't need to grip, you should be constantly following the motion of the horse. Stirrups or not stirrups, rising or sitting, saddle or bareback. Horseback riding is not piggyback riding on a friend =P

[kedwards]

In my opinion, posting without stirrups is not a panacea, but it isn't a sin either.

Like most exercises, it's usefulness (or harm) depends on the needs of the rider and the manner in which it is introduced. I do agree that it can encourage or exaggerate pinching knees in someone already so inclined. However, if it is done correctly, it can be very helpful for people who are rising too high or are too loose through their thighs and knees.

[Luv 2 Trot]

Im sorry, but i must disagree with him on that one. At our barn, we have no stirrup months in which we completely remove the stirrups from the saddle. We practice both sitting and rising trot, canter, etc. We do rising because it teaches us, as my RI says, that it doesnt matter how high we post, its about the rythm and correct movement. So basically, it helps teach you how to feel the motion of the horse without relying on anything but balance.

[julia gulia]

I find posting without stirrups helps to stregthen my lower back as it works the core but also really helps me feel a lengthening in the legs. After a stirrup-less work.out, I feel like Nicole Kidman!!!!! l.o.l. (long legs and all! ......still got the Scottish accent though tee hee)

[ajhainey]

Do you only ride one horse maybe Rob? I'm fine at sitting trot on some horses I've ridden - several it is easier than rising - but there are some horses I just CANNOT do it on - usually big warmblood/tb types with a hellavu stride or stiff backed horses that have hollowed away from you due to overuse with beginners bouncing around/me being incompetent! If you can manage it on the big wb types though - I am awed and impressed - after 3 years I still don't have it! :) aj xx

[Wally]

Riding without stirrups uis fine, is small doses, unless you build up to it over a long period of time.

It is darned hard work, if you do an hour without stirrups when you are not accustomed all that will hapen is you'll do 10 minutes of good work, and the next 50 mins will be appaling as you will get more and more tired and so will the horse as a consequence. It is important to warm up yourself and the horse, if you are not an really fit rider doing this without stirruops will not help, it will hinder.

Have to agree, you can improve a rider using the proper length stirrups and technique rather than bad work without stirrups.

[L34NN3]

I was taught to ride like your instrutor says. I have been riding for 15 years and have just started having lesson off a friend (who events for a living - jammy). She explained that you need to have a contact with the horse with you lower leg. I had always been taught to balance on and keep my heels down and not grip. Well all of a sudden (literally in the space of 15 minutes on the lunge) I could ride properly. I suddenly "got it". All those years of feeling I was rubbish but it was how I had been taught!

[Wally]

If you ride my horse with constant contact from your lower leg he'll do whatever he thinks you want, usually 90mph, or 90mph to whichever side you are sitting squint to!

[L34NN3]

a horse will only move from the contact if you leg is flappin. simply closin your leg around the horse does nothing apart from secure you. Bear in mind that i used to ride riding school ponies and used to get put on the slow ones because i was pretty rubbish...now i'm riding horses that are competing at medium level eventing (eventing is graded differently from sj) and they dont run from my leg. There is a difference between grippin to stay on and closing you leg around to stop it flapping....

[rabbit]

I found that stirrupless rising trot reinforced the idea that its not a rise upwards, but a rolling forward movement from the hips. It was one of those moments where suddenly it all made sense for me :)

I have lost a stirrup in the middle of a dressage test when my horse pigrooted at canter, and I continued to ride the test. I did the downward transition to trot at the marker, then contined in rising trot while fumbling for the lost stirrup.

Having said all that, I haven't got much hope of sitting trot or rising trot without stirrups on my horse... too bouncy - big movement.

Ive ridden some horses where its easier to sit to the trot than to rise....

[trina]

Hello

The disscussion about 'what do you grip with' is interesting. You should check out stuff written by Mary Wanless. I've had a few 'lightbulb moments' when reading her books about the dynamics of horse riding.

Trina

[ponylover88]

On my horse, Paddy, id rather sit than rise. Its too much hassle to rise. I can rise with/without stirrups and also bareback but hes so comfy i dont need to rise. :D Theres a horse at college who has the same trot and hes quite flighty - tiny bit of leg and you can easily make halt to gallop! You have to wrap your leg around him to keep your leg steady and i managed to to walk to canter, canter to walk, halt to trot and trot to halts and stuff on him without stirrups. Few issues stopping from canter but its life, one thing you just have to get over! Lovely pony, cant fault him in any way, just like my own pony. :D

[Wally]

a horse will only move from the contact if you leg is flappin. simply closin your leg around the horse does nothing apart from secure you

Not the really sensetive ones! Ride my horse with a closed leg and you'll get a violent reaction.