What colour is my mare

[traadilooar]

After a fascinating trawl through this forum I`ve decided I have no idea what colour Katie is.

http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0RAABA9ITP6H46qQGFslfLYiY3rvRPRgXSgNkH9a2bhbSAHivR8rt0UqA3LnxFfyzN63uhBFIP!vboBAttf9CaqQeHJWm2FRASfO MjqCyib8/Kate1.jpg?dc=4675449669770067579


I started with five pics on this but the others won`t work for me

[The Flying Irishman]

Looks like dark bay to me:)

Kath x

[traadilooar]

LOL Absolutely<g> I buy a beautiful bay mare and 15 years on that`s not what I have now.If I can just get these other pics to work.

[traadilooar]

http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0RADmAtQTu6GF3W2jaFSpri1vBiwlbWT9fwsgE1HjA0NdmaocsSdJHsRsRmyP7IP!kuaq15yOb!5jBqTbwhXvPnbcstgzTJ!msJg 77xEfVTU/Kate3.jpg?dc=4675449670429011006

Ok here`s another one,still struggling with the others.

Totally frustrating,I can`t seem to get the others up whichever way I try and they are kinda necessary to the thread :(

[chev]

She looks like a bay with some roaning or other going on there.

What's her breeding? How old is she? How has her colour changed over time? Is that white I see in her tail, and if so, is it up at the top of the dock or down at the end?

[ambatt]

Rabicano going on?? H'mm maybe not.
She looks like she has been dipped in icing sugar bless her!

[traadilooar]

In the pictures she`s five and six, she is allegedly out of a grey(white) welsh/TB mare by a chestnut TB stallion.
She has very much changed over time,now 19 yrs,which is why it`s so frustrating that I can`t get the other pics to load.

There is white in her tail at the dock mainly but salt and peppered now.

Any suggestions re. pics?

[jowyles]

try putting them on www.photobucket.com and then putting the links on here

[traadilooar]

Wonderful,that worked a treat,thanks Jowyles.Posted in order of age roughly 6 years,12 years,17 years and now,19 years.

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g216/traadilooar/Kate2.jpg



http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g216/traadilooar/Kate4.jpg



http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g216/traadilooar/PIC00020_edited.jpg


http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g216/traadilooar/Photo-0025_026.jpg



http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g216/traadilooar/Photo-0047_000.jpg

[pico]

She's grey. But she's one of those greys who greyed out very slowly at first, so she still looked mostly bay as a six year old - except you can see even at 6 she's greying on her head. It's just you'd more often see that shade of bay going grey on a horse that's much younger.

[chev]

Yup - she's bay with the grey gene. So she started out bay, and the grey has gradually taken over and replaced the bay with first of all black and white hair, and then just white, so she has ended up grey.

All greys go through teh same proccess; your mare has just been one of those who greyed out more slowly. I have a friend with a mare of about six who's greying at about the same rate; but because she started out black, she's much more obviously grey (she's a very very dark iron grey right now). The bay base does confuse things with greys that are greying slowly!

She will have got the grey from her grey parent (who was also either black or bay base under the grey).

[traadilooar]

Thanks everyone,so in essence I`ve never owned a bay or even a bay roan,she`s always been grey?

She`s regaining a pink tinge as she`s shedding her winter woolies.

Do I have grounds for a refund do you think? ;)

Must say I bought her from a friend,riding her in first pic,who just laughs at me when I demand a refund for my `fake bay`.

If it`s all the same to you guys though I`ll stick to my far less technical term of `pink pony` rather than admit I own a grey. :D

I`ve never had any desire to own a grey cos they are such dirty beasts <g>

Madam taking advantage of having her rug off yesterday.

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g216/traadilooar/Photo-0052_054.jpg

[chev]

Well, she is still genetically bay ;) - grey isn't really a colour, so much as a colour replacer. So if you were to register her anywhere now, it would be as 'bay gone grey'.

It works like this; she has one E allele (that gives her a black base) and one e allele (that gives her a red base - if she had two of these alleles instead of just one she'd be chestnut) at the Extension locus (that's the gene that dictates whether a horse is black or chestnut). She also has at least one A allele (that makes her black base into a bay colour). She also has one G (grey) allele, which has caused her colour to become grey over time. So her genotype is bay with grey.

Genotype is the colour she is gentically.

Her phenotype is grey. Phenotype refers to the genetics you can actually see on her body.

So... she looks grey; but under that grey, she is still bay. :)

Although looking at that last pic I'd have to see it looks like you've got yourself a genuine bogalino pattern there :D :D

[traadilooar]

OK so no refund then?<g>

The lady who bred her insists that she was born chestnut,is this a possibility?

Or is it more likely that she is confusing Kate with her older sister Sid,who has always been a more orangey roany colour with orangey legs,mane,tail?Apparently Sid is graying out as well and is now a `mucky` colour.Out of the same mare but allegedly by a Bay Arab stalion who is in his thirties now and still the most gorgeous think on four legs. LOL

Sorry no pics of Sid.

[chev]

Definitely never been chestnut. Some bay foals can be mistaken for chestnut at birth because the fawn coloured baby fluff can hide black points (although most foals born bay that will later go grey actually tend to have very dark or black points, even at birth) but it's usually obvious very quickly that they're not chestnut.

She could well be remembering Sid; who has obviously got the grey from mum and a red allele from both parents. Chestnut is a reccessive colour; to be chestnut a horse must have two copies of that allele; if they have only one, they won't be chestnut in colour. But they can still pass that chestnut on to a foal, which is how you get chestnut foals from black and bay parents.

The pics attached show the transformation of Rhodri from an apparently chestnut foal at birth, through light bay as he dried off, to the dark bay he ended up. He always was dark bay; he's never been chestnut, but baby fluff can be ever so deceptive.... :D

[coblover26]

She looks like a bay to me too, she is very nice as well :)

[Just.Jump]

Definately a slow grey, despite any rosiness now. That's the thing about greys- I'm only fond of the color before it starts drastically fading out.

[traadilooar]

This is brilliant,thanks Chev.

So will grey always be passed on? I know Corrie was white as was her full brother Gren, then we have Sid from Corrie and bay Kamari who is orangey roany, so presumably chestnut greying out?

Then there`s Kate from Corrie and chestnut Habitual,who is bay going grey.If it wasn`t for the height difference I`d suspect these to have been given the wrong daddies.

There is another sister that I know of who is by a dun Section D,Llanarth Brio,who threw mainly duns.She was born dun but I`ve lost track of her,will she stay dun or is Corries grey dominant?

[chev]

Grey is only dominant in the sense that it'll be expressed if a horse has it. If a horse has one grey allele, they'll be grey; but there's only ever a 50/50 chance they'll pass the grey on. If on the other hand they have two grey alleles, then they can only pass on grey and not non-grey, and any foal they produce will also go grey.

So in your mare's case, we know that only one parent was grey; so she can only have one copy of grey herself. That means she'd have a 50% chance of grey foals.

If a horse is not grey to look at, they don't carry grey, and will never have grey foals unless bred to a grey that passes it on.

Llanarth Brio was not dun, but buckskin - that is bay with cream. The cream is the same gene that makes chestnuts into palominos; it's Brio's palomino sire that gave him cream, and it's the cream gene that he's passing on to bay based foals to produce more buckskins. Brio didn't have grey; so he'd only produce grey foals when used on grey mares. If Corrie had two grey alleles, the foal would be grey; if she only had one, there's a 50% chance the foal would get grey, and a 50% chance it wouldn't.

Most foals that will end up grey show definite signs of greying by weaning when they shed the foal coat; it's usually first seen around the eyes, like grey spectacles.

[Imp]

How interesting, I've read this with interest!!!!

My pony is a 'very' dark bay (most people call her black). She has white hairs on her wither, and under her tummy, which I can see when she rolls, it is really quite greyed down the centre. Her tail is also greying from the dock. She has two white rear socks so I can't see what's going on there.

When I bought her in January people asked if she'd had badly fitting tack because the greying withers :eek: She's fine though and it is throughout her body.

She's between 8 and 9 so could she also be 'greying'? I don't know her breeding I'm afraid as she was bought over from Ireland last July by her previous owners. In her passport photo she looks like an ordinary dark bay and as she's moulting now I can see orangy dappling which makes me think she'll lighten up more over the summer even before clipping.

Could she be greying or is she just a mongrel of unknown breeding who has a variety genes muddled up in her coat?

Happy to show pics but don't have any over 12 months old as I've only just bought her ;)

:D

[traadilooar]

I think I`m confusing myself now,either I`m trying to hard and not getting it or I`m not trying hard enough<g>

If Corrie had two grey alleles would she still have a different colour base?

Does the high incidence of grey in the family, both Corrie and Gren(full siblings) being white and Sid and Kate (Corries foals) greying out,give any indication as to whether Corrie carries one or two grey alleles?

I always thought Buckskin was what cowboys called Dun<g>

So Brio was in effect a yellow bay?And all his offspring that everyone refers to as Dun are Buckskin as well.I think all the Brio progeny that I know about are some form of yellow from golden to cream,with a few chestnuts as well.

Imp I`d love to see pics of your baby.

[Lucyad]

Oh thats realy interesting - I had a little welsh section A who was born chestnut then went grey! her mum was grey and her dad was chestnut and she ended up a bit of both! I couldnt believe when I saw a baby pic for her on her stud web-site, I thought I had been sold the wrong pony! Then I looked more closely and saw her trademark cheeky expression.......

[chev]

Imp - it sounds more like your mare has some sabino roaning than grey. Are her socks ragged at the edges? Does she have a ragged blaze or white under her chin? Are there any splodges of white on her lips?

Traadloor - it's almost impossible to say whether Corrie has one or two copies of grey. How many she has makes no difference at all to what colour she is 'under' the grey, just to what genes she can or can't pass on to her foals. She's only had two foals anyway, so it's very difficult to guess on the strength of that. You might like to read this (http://www.newrider.com/forum/showthread.php?t=47385) thread on grey - that explains how it works. :)

Brio is a buckskin. Buckskin and dun are two separate colours, both to look at and genetically. More about them both in this thread (http://www.newrider.com/forum/showthread.php?t=47377) - dun, bay dun, blue dun, golden dun and so on are all caused by the dun gene; buckskin, palomino and so on are all caused by the cream gene. Part of the problem is that it's only recently been acknowledged that there is a difference between them in this country; we've called buckskins golden dun for years. We also assumed that the US 'buskskin' was another name for our duns - it's not. They're two separate entities! Brio also threw palomino; same cream dilute gene, on a different base colour. :)

[Imp]

Chev, I'm not sure what you meen by 'ragged' so would literally interpret that as meaning not straight... in which case, yes, she has two socks on her rear legs which are ragged and her blaze is a bit too. Here are some pics of her withers and her hip to show the 'ticking' throughout her coat in parts.

Withers and base of her mane greying:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v296/lynda788/Megan/8290f852.jpg

Hip:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v296/lynda788/Megan/33225a97.jpg

Here's her face showing her blaze: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v296/lynda788/Megan/867eacb4.jpg

Under her tummy is really very grey and between her back legs you can see her white knickers when she's walking away from you and her tail is swishing.

She is also greying significantly on her dock similar in pattern but less extensively to traadilooar's picture of her mare's dock on the first page of the thread.

[chev]

Looks a lot like sabino. :)

Sabino causes ragged socks, roaning, ticking and all sorts. This little mare was one of ours, a Morwyn bred section B - she has absolutely classic sabino stockings and the roaning too. Not all are as obvious as this but that's the kind of uneven edges you get with sabino markings.

[Imp]

Chev: I'm learning by the minute! Only one rather embarrassing question though... what's sabino? :o

[Danyele]

Imp: how is that an embarrasing (sp?) question? oh, and Chev, what is sabino? :)

[neen]

Look in this thread for an explanation of Sabino... (http://newrider.com/forum/showthread.php?t=47366)

... and if you're anything like me you'll be lost for a good while! I'm becoming a bit of a colour anorak now thanks to Chev. Well, I always had it in me, I suppose, being a bit of a geek at the best of times...

[Danyele]

It is REALLY interesting. horses you would just think of as "bay" or "Grey" have all these secrets... I wonder what else the horses hide...hmmm...