Chev your sooo good do you know this colour?

[welshbeauty]

Hi Chev very impressed with your knowlage of colours wondered if you could help with this one im thinking dun roan if there is such a colour:rolleyes: this is a pony i will hopefully be getting for my daughter next weekenhttp://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e335/welshbeauty/Photo-0145.jpgd

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e335/welshbeauty/Photo-0144.jpg
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e335/welshbeauty/Photo-0143.jpghttp://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e335/welshbeauty/Photo-0142.jpg
Or maybe just another slow growing grey:o i really have no idea no dorsal stripe that i have seen but black tip in ears and muzzle

[Shiny McShine]

I would say he is either a dun or bucksin based grey. If he were roan you would see more obvious dark areas around the bony parts such as the face and his lower legs.

He appears to have a dorsal stripe which would suggest a dun, but while duns always have the dorsal stripe they must have it in combination with other primative markings in order to be a confirmed dun, as solid colours can also have the dorsal stripe alone and have no dun heritage. There seems to be some hint of zebra markings on his legs though it is a bit hard to see from the photo, if so that would confirm him as dun.

[chev]

Hmm... I'm not sure about dun. The tail does seem to have some sort of end of a dorsal stripe but as you say there isn't one along his spine. The markings on his legs could be liver chestnut type barring, grey at work, or a combination of these (or dun factor leg barring!).

To be honest, if it wasn't for the black tips to the ears I'd have said palomino going grey; most bay-based horses would have a lot more pigment in the tail than he seems to there. It's difficult with ponies to say for definite whether they are dun sometimes; I've seen a number of ponies with no dun in their breeding who do have dorsal stripes and leg barring; primitive markings don't always mean dun.

There are also ponies like the Exmoor, who come in a pattern called 'dun' but who don't show any of the striping or dorsal stripes associated with dun as we now know it. And yet they are dilute in some form; but the shade seems confined to that one particular version (you never see any type of dun in Exmoors other than the 'sooty with toad marks' version) so dun really remains a bit of a mystery. There is, I think, a difference between dun factor markings, which can crop up over time in wild herds, and 'dun' as a recognisable colour as seen in Fjords and Highlands for example.

Either way; this one is not roan. He may or may not be dun; he shows some dun factor markings, and there were possibly more hidden under the grey, but it's almost impossible to say whether he is Dun or just has primitiove markings. He may or may not have a cream dilute in there. I don't think he has both dun and cream.

Any idea of his breeding and/or parents' colours?

[Pinto mad!]

hi. sorry if i just waste your time but a friend has a horse that looks EXACTLY like that and she is a grulla.

[welshbeauty]

I have no history on this pony although i am inclined to think there is a definate new forest streak in him and on closer inspection today he does have a dorsal stripe on his back to look at him from a distance he looks like a very stained grey :p maybe its a new colour STAINED GREY ;) all i know about him is that a young inexperienced girl had him and used to tease him with his feed so he is a bit of a grumble weed and needs a lot of tlc oh yeah and a diet but would be really keen to know what his colouring is.

Pinto i have never heard of a grulla what is that ??? a breed or colour? please excuse my ignorance:o

[welshbeauty]

Pinto i have just looked up on the internet gurallo and you could be right what do you think chev? I must admit it is not a colour i had herd of or ever seen here in england but as i have always said 22 years in the horse world and still got so much more to learn:rolleyes: hi. sorry if i just waste your time but a friend has a horse that looks EXACTLY like that and she is a grulla.

[Aphrodite]

Hi.

Not sure if u have figured this out for certain. If not, there is a recognised term of 'odd-coloured grey'. It is recognised in the horsey world as a 'correct' term for horses with similar pigmentation as yours. Can't find the magazine i saw it in though, sorry!!

Hope that helps anyway. :)

[Shiny McShine]

To be honest, if it wasn't for the black tips to the ears I'd have said palomino going grey; most bay-based horses would have a lot more pigment in the tail than he seems to there.

That's why I would have placed him as a dun base but as you say these things are hard to confirm, especially where the horse has already greyed out to such an extent. The dark hairs on the ears and in the mane/forelock rule out palomino in my mind, and if he were a buckskin I would have thought the tail would be a lot darker. To me he has the look of typical Fjord dun that has greyed out.

[chev]

The dark hairs on the ears and in the mane/forelock rule out palomino in my mind, and if he were a buckskin I would have thought the tail would be a lot darker. To me he has the look of typical Fjord dun that has greyed out.

Agreed on the bucksin (like I said, not enough dark hair in the tail for bay base) but I wouldn't rule out palomino on teh basis of dark hair in the mane and tail, or on the ear tips. Black pigment would rule out palomino; but in Welsh ponies for a start sooty or chocolate palomino is quite common, complete with dark or grey mane and tail hair. And if it is palomino greying out, the grey would also add dark hair to a blond mane and tail to start with - which confuses the issue.

A good example of palomino with darker mane and tail is Llanarth Braint (http://homepages.manx.net/welsh-cobs/pages/llanarthbraint.htm) who was chestnut with cream dilute. Another amazing example is on this page (http://colormorgans.tripod.com/palomino.htm) - scroll down to Metigoshe Mariah. She is red based with cream dilute. She is an extreme example but she does show how dark mane and tail can be on a palomino. The liver variant of chestnut does have shades and patterns all its own, and in combination with the cream dilute does throw up some very 'untypical' palominos. It is very common in Welsh ponies.

One thing he definitely isn't is grullo. Grullo is black dun, and very distinctive. Soem good examples of grullo here (http://www.mustangs4us.com/Horse%20Colors/dun.htm) - as you can see when you compare this pony to the ones on this page, he still lacks a true dorsal stripe, has absolutely no dun factor markings like the cobwebbing on his face, mask or leg barring, his points are not dark enough and his coat is too pale. Even with grey, I'm still not convinced he has dun at all. Duns greying out still have dun characteristics for a long time; greying does in most cases actually exaggerate leg barring and dorsal stripes. Someone here has a Highland called Roddy who is dun greying out; I have a picture she very kindly let me use for my talk which does show how clear his dun markings are in spite of greying.

If I can remember who it was I'll see if the pictures can be posted here to show them....

[welshbeauty]

Thanks for all your help guys still a very confusing colour one thing for sure i am definatley getting this pony next weekend (transport depending:rolleyes: )
Hopefully going to see him again tomorrow so will try and get some better pics of him i.e back and close up leg shots i must add this pony is in a very natural state at the moment as lives out and is very grubby and maybe my pics are a bit light on his colour as taken on a very sunny day, if i get a few more shots it may help , really appreiciate the input been very educational:D thanks once again

[Shiny McShine]

Good luck with him... it is always easier to see the true markings and colouration of a horse in smooth summer coat so time may tell :).

[welshbeauty]

Well Raggs has finaly arrived going to get him cleaned up an settled then get some better pics:D
here are a few of him in his new stable and meeting his new neighbour

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e335/welshbeauty/Photo-0000.jpg
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e335/welshbeauty/Photo-0146.jpg

[Shiny McShine]

He looks like a sweet fellow, I love the second picture... how tall is he?

[cobloopy]

He's lovely!!! I would call him a rose dapple or rose grey. My friend has an ID his colouring and that's what she calls it. :)

[chev]

He's lovely! Congratulations :D

Definitely greying out!