HELP! re Danny rearing

[Tots N Dots]

Sorry this is long
before it is suggested, Dentist and Physio are on way out! ;)
Danny has often half reared in hand, such things as if I move my right leg while doing the girth up, (think he has been kneed in the stomach while the girth is being done up) he has done full rears with the Dentist, he uses rearing to resist things, just before he rears he gets the most horrid look in his eye, I dont thinkits pain or fear, its more like resentment,
he started being slowley brought back into work just over 2 weeks ago we have had no problems and only been walking with very short trots now on grass, in fact he is bomproof with traffic and has been a pleasure to ride, On Saturday he didnt want to go over the railway line and I had 5 diddy little half rears and a little buck, which I coped with fine, (have a bit of a history of being nervous as a horse went over backwards and damaged my spine 12 years ago) we rode out on Sunday with his sharer riding he was excellent. Monday I hacked out with my frind who owns one of Danny's field companions, lovely ride, we were going to trot 20 yards up the hill, Sky was in front and started to trot, Danny danced a bit so I asked him to wait a second then asked him to trot after Sky, Danny ran backwards spun and then reared vertical, I shouted to my friend, she turned just in time to see Danny go up a second time, I swung my feet out of the stirrups dismounted in mid air, landed on my feet next to his head and really let rip, I did smack him and the village probably now knowa every swear word i know in every language, Danny looked very shocked, I got back on and rode him the rest of the way home, last night I decided to do some groundwork with him, he resisted and went up repeatedly till he went over backwards, he also manouvered my friend who was there, into a corner and really threatened her, but was fine against me no matter if he was on leadrope or not apart from the rearing. (he was untacked and in a halter only)
As I have said, Physio and dentist are on the way and i have rung our local place that has a Monty Roberts Associate.
But I am at a loss, most of my friends are saying I dont owe Danny anything and should just get rid asap? I dont really know what to do, I dont have an unlimited bank account, your opinions would be appreciated
a very sad and worried Bev

[Jay.o]

I know how you feel, in a way.

My mare had a nasty habit of rearing. But this was due to her back and saddle in the end. I had her back sorted, her teeth looked at and wolf teeth out. i bought a bitted bridle (as my bitless caused her to rear aswell) and a brand new treed saddle as my treeless caused pressure points.

So after vets bill, back bill, new saddle bills and everything, I think we have it sorted. She has gone up in over 8 weeks (touch wood, fingers crossed, blah, blah). Going down hill caused her pain in her back and too much pressure (from me) on her head from her bridle, becuase she used to rush down the hill very unbalaced.

Now all is sorted, I am having to slowly slowly build up confidence to hacking her out again and find the right bit for her.

Until everything has been checked, like you are doing, I would seriously lay off riding him. He does sound like a troubled horse either in pain or scared. Check what you are feeding him aswell. Try lunging him, long reining and leading out inhand, see if he still rears.

Try just really boning with him. Just being with him, brushing him and talking to him will build his confidence in you and see that you arent going to hurt him. Try a form of natural horsemanship maybe, like something similar to the parelli games. There are looks of book on these exercises and also on the internet too.

I dont really know what else to suggest until the cause has been found.

[Tots N Dots]

thanks, as i said to someone, just when everything seems perfect in my life, BigBird from Sesame Street comes and does a big poo on my windscreen of life! everything was so great, had found a really wonderfull sharer for him, my confidence was coming on in leaps and bounds, the sun was shining. now everything has gone to pot and its raining hard! (sorry folks loosing the plot somewhat here)
we have made the field a bit smaller to rest some of it, he is on quite a lot of food for one feed a day, but it is 95% fibre, I do wonder if he is getting bullied a bit in the field, I have noticed a few things, I could bring him home to the little paddock here? but he would be on his own, not that this has seemed to bother him before, I could then give him 2 smaller feeds a day and I could spend more quality time with him,
I know I am probably reading too much into it, but when something flicks that little switch he seems so calculated, cold hearted and really nasty about it.
Yesterday I got so close to saying "to heck with all this, sell both of them and give up completely" :o

[Tots N Dots]

anyone else got any ideas how I should tackle this one?

[KateWooten]

Hi Bev,

sorry you are feeling like this, and everything looks bleak. I know it's hard but you can look ahead, and yes, there is light at the end of this tunnel whichever way it turns out. I know I have a habit of always bringing my own horse into someone else's thread but .... I know exactly how you feel (well, I think I do), because my wonderful little 4 yr old Rosie, I was about to give up on her last September - the 18th actually, because for the previous 6 months I seemed to have got nowhere with her, and just when everything seemed to be working well, she could just rear up high, wave her arms about and I'd be scared discouraged, and it would seem we'd made no progress at all for the last 6 months, and after half a year of this every day, and a trip to casualty, I could se no way forward either.

Well, there is hope, and you can sort this out, but for a solution, you have to look back to a much more basic level in his and your training together. I mean, ok, the symptom is that he is rearing, but the problem is much more fundamental than that. At this stage, if you 'cure' his rearing, in a week or two, you'll need to cure his bucking, then his biting then kicking or whatever.

The underlying cause is most likely he needs to trust you more. He needs to respect your leadership more. He needs to know that what you ask him to do is the best for him and you. He's a herd animal, and he's programmed to either take orders from the herd leader as to where to go and whether it's safe here.... or to be the leader. If in his mind, there isn't a leader around that's better than him, then he'll step up. One very common, and very frightening situation is where the horse sees you as a good enough leader up to a point... and then in scary, or uncomfortable situations, decides, ok, enough's enough, and he'll take over the job.

Sounds like you have some flexibility as to how you set up your facilities. I would make sure he has adequate space to move around, and the company of other horses, and isn't too fat. Apart from that, don't worry about the feeding and pasture issues, forget them, they're not the problem. Set up your facilities so as to give you a nice flat, safe place to work. Go there every day and play with him in a very focussed, and progressive way - achieving something, some forward progress, however small every day. This is the way you two will build confidence in each other, step by step, day by day, always moving forward together and always being calm and happy, never pushing either of you too far outside of your comfort zone. Follow a good, long-term lesson plan, and learn to communicate with him using 'pressure-release' - that's the natural way that horses communicate with each other to determine who's the good leader, and to sort out any squabbles before they get out of hand.

The easiest way to figure out a progressive, calm program is to follow one that's already been figured out - no point reinventing the wheel until you have to. Used well, Parelli's is very good, but it's expensive. For a very cheap easy to use practical plan, just buy Clinton Anderson's book 'Establishing Respect and Control for the English and Western Rider'. The reason I say that is because it has just enough theory that everything makes sense, and lots of step-by-step full colour pics. All he does is give you some fairly basic groundwork exercises to do, and you think 'ok, but what is all this to do with rearing' but what happens if you folllow the program, after a week or two you go ahead and ride out, and where he would have reared before, now all of a sudden you find he doesn't feel the need to. The problem seems to have sorted itself out without you actually working on it. And that's because all the while you've been working on the underlying cause - respect and leadership - without really realising it.

Whatever plan you choose, commit to it wholeheartedly. Start at the very begninning and don't miss a single step. You might start out thinking 'well, this is very basic, it's too easy'. Good. That gives you a starting point that's easy, calm and hapy. keep it that way and work from there.

[Tootsie4U]

Bev, next time you sense he's about to rear, step a few feet outside his left shoulder and twirl the end of your lead rope toward his flank. You want him to snap his hind end away from you which will cause him to heaftily step one leg under and across the other. He physically wont be able to rear. Continue this until he settles and then thank him for realising that standing still is a better option than trying to manipulate a human again.

The key is getting him to snap that hind end away. Plain circling isnt enough. If you need to, let the twirling lead rope "tickle" his rump. But he must snap his butt away and he must do it when you ask him to. Keep yourself at a relative distance to his front shoulder so that he can't strike out at you.

Good luck.

[Tots N Dots]

I am feeling a lot more positive today, probably seems a strange thing to say but I am a great believer in fate, I think Danny is here with me for both of us to lay our ghosts maybe?
12 years ago as I said, I was left unable to walk with no feeling in my legs for 6 weeks bue to a horse going over backwards on me, may be due to luck or judgement but I have not had the pleasure of a horse rearing with me since, (I dont count front feet 6 inches of the ground ;) ) its been 12 years and I thought I would completely go to pieces if a horse ever did that with me, yes I got off, safest thing to do in the situation at the time but I got back on too :D so I am really proud of myself.
I know I have a habit of always bringing my own horse into someone else's thread but ....
Dont worry Kate I always use my horse as a way to explain things, its easier,
I was hopeing you would post on this as I have been reading alot of your other posts about rearing on my search through the previous posts,
Bev, next time you sense he's about to rear, step a few feet outside his left shoulder and twirl the end of your lead rope toward his flank. Good luck. thanks, good point on that one.

I have a theory? I think there is a problem with his neck? I know this is a long shot, and would take a lot of explaining in full.
Danny is a bad loader, I think someone at some time someone has tried to haul him into a lorry or trailer by force? maybe passing a lunge line through the ring on the lorry and trying to load him like that by pulling him in? I have not had him long and have only travelled him once, we had trouble getting him in lorry but didnt resort to those kind of methods and never would, but know of people that have, when I got him he had rested for a year due to a leg injury.
could a neck problem show up as lameness in a front leg?
ANY kind of pressure around the top of his head over the last couple of days has sent him into orbit and he is trotting up a little lame, same leg as supposed injury. no heat, no swelling in his leg, nothing, it seems more shoulder related, he was ever so slightly stiff in this side before he started this rearing?
Physio will be here in the morning so will know more,
I led Danny the mile to the house paddock last night, several times on the way home he stopped and I know would have reared had i forced the issue, I just took a few steps forward ignored his stance, and said "are you coming then?" he tootled up to me and we carried on,
Danny and I have worked through quite a few issues together, up till the rearing had (have) a very good relationship, he follows me round the field like a puppy, our local farmers who come in the field with tractors to do various things, (deliver hay, harrow field etc) have commented how with no head collars and no contact from me, my two stand one either side of me while they bring the tractors in the second gate, Sky who I have less to do with goes barrelling round the field, Danny does have a bit of a respect issue he uses his size to try and intimidate, but has been doing this less and less, the trust side isnt perfect, what is, but it is pretty good, we have both come a long way since he arrived, I am really beginning to think it is physical, will let everyone know more after physio has been, :D (unless anyone had had this lameness neck thing? and can tell me if I may be right or way off mark?)

[NoviceNic]

Bev I hope the the backman, physio and MR assoc can all be of help to you. In the meantime take care of yourself and here are loads fo hugs for you and Danny. <<<<<<<>>>>>>

[julia gulia]

Bev?????? I so admire you and wish there were more people like you!!!!!!!!!!! :)
I read and reread your posts , you are obviously trying so hard to listen to your horse and trying to figure out why he is responding this way.One thing is for sure...he wasn't born this way, whatever experiences he has had in his young life have left him fearful and distrusting of humans. So far, you have set your horse up for success by calling a dentist and a chiropractor. You also said you called a Monty Roberts instructor so you have already formed a plan of action!!!!! You will get to the bottom of this and when you do?????? Oh Boy, think about the bond you will have with your horse.
You are a perfect example of the phrase" Don't look at the problem, look for the cause and you will find the solution".
I know many people who would just turn their back on all of this and they would move on.Thank goodness it isn't so easy to do that with children!!!!:eek: I believe from the bottom of my heart that you reap what you sow. My hat is off to you!!!! You are special and that is why this horse ended up with you!!!!!
Please, please keep us updated on his progress , just take it easy, baby steps and you will find the solution!;)

[Silver1]

I think I'm going to agree with Julia here, she said it all. I really think you're on the right track, chiro, dentist and a NH instructor will surely sort the problem out, especially when it is combined with your thoughtfulness and sensitivity. :) You're the kind of person I would allow up on my own horse. Keep up the good work.

[julia gulia]

You Know Silver, I agree with you!!!! I wouldn't hesitate to let her sit on my boys back!!! And I can count on one hand, the people who have had That honour!!!! L.O.L.:p

[Tots N Dots]

julia gulia and Silver1, in a 3 words WOW! THANK YOU!

Well physio came this morning, checked him over, wrote on his pad and asked for my theory on it all, he agreed with everything I said, :cool: , even to my theory of how this has happened to Danny, plus he found a couple of extras (;) well I never said I was perfect lol). He thinks Danny has had these problems for some while but it wouldnt have shown up due to the time he has had off, He also thinks that these problems would account for his rearing, (phew lets hope its that), plus he also thinks that Danny may never have had a tendon problem, as a tendon would swell and/or produce heat, so why test for ringbone and navicular? it may have been his neck causing the lameness all along, as the lameness which showed up on exactly the same leg that was looked into, appeared at the same time as I realised there was a poll problem and has disappeared into thin air. :D

so it is Danny's
C0/C1 (just behind the poll area)
C3 (middle distance down his neck)
near side scapular (shoulder)
L2 (lumbar just behind saddle area)

Danny wouldn't let him fully do the poll thing, but he thinks he may have manage to sort it in a different way, when he was doing the L2 Danny stood stock still but bucked like stink, I did ask him not replace his rearing with bucking ;) , he did look very comical, Danny was a bit resistant to him doing his stuff, I have been given the all clear to ride him, but I will lead him out in hand a few times 1st just to gain confidence again, Danny is pretty clear in telling me if he wants me to get on and ride :D , I was also advised to use the treeless and an elevator bridle for him, Physio sees no need for him to come back untill Danny's 6 month checkup unless I think it is needed, which as I had picked up on so much already then he is sure I will notice if there is a problem quite quickly :D
I hope I am not counting my chickens but I really hope this has sorted things for Danny, I was so convinced it was his poll rather than anything else, keep your fingers crossed folks, will update with inhand work and ridden as we get there :D

[raingodz]

Hi Tots N Dots, Sounds great news :)

It will be interesting to see how he improves from now :)

[Bay Mare]

You will get to the bottom of this and when you do?????? Oh Boy, think about the bond you will have with your horse.

That is a great way of looking at it! I hadn't even realised until I read your post (I HAD a rearer, still got the mare, she just isn't a rearer anymore :) ) but the traumas that we went through have resulted in a fantastic bond and relationship for us. I trust her as much as I can trust anyone now and have almost got a telephathic communication with her. We've still got a way to go but I can see now how helpful her vice was, I certainly wouldn't be in the 'place' that I am now if she hadn't have been let's say 'difficult' when I first got her :) She was obviously meant to be, rears and all :)

Bev - I'm so glad that you've found a reason for the behaviour. I'd still get the RA out (they're not that expensive) as there could be some residual negative associations which need to be worked through.

All the best and I hope that you come out of it as well as I've come out of it with Saff :)

[Tots N Dots]

I'd still get the RA out (they're not that expensive) as there could be some residual negative associations which need to be worked through.

I have them on standby, the one thing that surprises me with Danny, and its a bit hard to explain?
Once Danny understands, that I understand, that he has a problem, he is pretty OK, although he remembers the pain or someones previous action I can show him I wont do that, I am just now trying to let him know that there are lines of communication open other than rearing. :D
I said to the Physio as he was working that if Danny moved he moved, I wasnt going to pull on the leadrope to keep him still (not that I tend to haul on the rope anyway) as this would make him uncomfortable with his head, I am glad to say the physio was ok with this, Danny didnt rear once while we worked although he gave the look a few times, each time I looked straight at him and said "no", when he didnt rear I told him how well he was doing with lots of fuss :D

[raingodz]

How is Danny doing? Just wondering if he is back to his normal self again :)

[Tots N Dots]

oh what a day yesterday! we have been leading out Danny in hand, not had a chance to ride him yet as need a girth for the treeless, but oh my is he full of the joys of spring, he is responsive in hand but talk about striding out I only have little legs and just cant walk that fast, he seems sooo much happier and is putting much needed weight on now, but Pickle decided he had to try and climb into the metal water trough yesterday :eek: :confused: . quite a nasty injury, so had to take Danny to big field and swap him for Pickle, not done much with Pickle due to getting Danny fit, so the walk to the field was a megga pace with no stopping with Danny and the walk back with Pickle was mainly circles and backwards, oh and the poor ladies face when Pickle nearly sat on the bonnet of her very nice BMW was a picture :D :eek: :D , she was very good about it maybe as I ran round and placed myself between him and the car :eek: he was pretty good with the traffic though, oh was I wishing I had borrowed a trailer instead of the mile (maybe 4 miles with all the circles) walk, Pickle has a quite nasty puncture wound to his leg and has removed loads of hair off it, so his leg is now cleaned (and he suddenly learnt how to kick) and covered in purple spray, and he has had some antibiotics,
will take some photos of a much happier rounder looking Danny and will update as soon as I have had chance to get on him :D
Pickles leg looks good today hardly any swelling but he is tender on it :rolleyes: I need a holiday!

[Tots N Dots]

Just thought i would post a quick update on Danny. he has had 2 sessions of physio and although I havent ridden him yet, due to a muscle spasm in his neck and shoulder that has now passed but now we seem to have a touch of cracked heals, and boy is he laying it on thick that this hurts :D . but on top of all that he is doing really well and hasnt reared once in hand since the physio, he is beginning to look a bit plump :eek: , his general attitude to life just keeps on improving, with help today I managed to hibiscrub his bad heel, (if no help we go round in circles and I get dizzy cause I dont want to tie him up and then him pull back if his heel hurts and hurt his poll again) he looked uncomfortable a couple of times but stood (with food) like a good lad. I really cant belive the difference in him since he arrived both in looks and his attitude. Just need to sort his heel out and we will be back to our getting fit routine :)
Thanks to everyone for your support with him, without this board I may have given up due to lack of confidence. :D

[julia gulia]

Excellent news Tots and Dots:D Good for you!!!
Thanks so much for taking the time to update us.
Pictures of Danny would be nice (hint hint);)

[Tots N Dots]

Danny on Boxingday. not underweight really, but not happy :( .
http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c34/totsndots/Danny/dannyboy1.jpg
and Danny a couple of weeks ago, after the physio, his loosing weight was down to the fact he couldnt chew properly with his poll problem, so couldnt digest his food properly. saying that it didnt show up at all in his droppings. but a happier Danny all round, looking might I say very handsome :D
http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c34/totsndots/Danny/Sam27apr.jpg
I would go as far as saying he is getting too chubby now, and its only been a few weeks since his physio. more of a "good doer" than I thought!

[julia gulia]

Oh My!!!!!!! He is a stunner Bev.:) He does look sooooo much happier now, doesn't he??
Now don't you feel good? You put that smile on that handsome boys face;)

That is one good looking Hoss:p

[Tots N Dots]

Thanks, he is getting to be a bit of a cheeky chappy now too :D

[julia gulia]

L.O.L. I like Cheeky, Cheeky can be good:D