My Pretty Rearing Horse

[KateWooten]

I have a question. It's a genuine question, not a test :) What should I do if I ask my horse to trot around a circle - lunging - and she pins her ears, shakes her head, maybe she'll trot a circle grudgingly, then maybe she'll fall in and attempt to barge me.... then at some stage, if I don't 'give in' to her bullying attempts, she'll stand right up on her hind legs and wave her arms about. All the posturing and faces beforehand tend to disappear when she rears up. It's never a 'panicky' up and down, stressed looking movement on her part. It's very calm, looks incredibly graceful, ears are forward and alert, and she can hang there beautifully balanced for ages ... difficult to describe well, but it's as if she knows just how stunning she is ... to me (and I may be wrong) it looks like "Ok, lady, I've tolerated your pathetic attempts to be lead horse long enough now, show's over, this is what a real horse looks like'.

I guess I need to highlight why IMO I have such a problem getting my head round this issue. It's because my whole methodology says 'make the right thing easy and the wrong thing difficult' i.e. just before she goes up, I should put her to work - forward, backward, left and right until she finds it's easier just to go and do what was asked of her in the first place' ... well, what should I do if 'what was asked of her in the first place' really is the hardest work I can think to ask her to do?

I get to watch a bunch of TV trainers doing all sorts of groundwork with all sorts of problem horses - lazy ones, nervous ones, high-strung-ones ... but I have never seen one like Rosie. They almost never rear on TV, or in the live clinics I've seen, or with any of the local trainers I've watched in action. And even when I have seen a rearing horse it's been a panicky rear, not this very calm, very 'final' gesture. I wish I had a picture to show you. The one time DH was with me with the camera, and she went up, he just stood there gawping too, going 'wow, she's so beautiful'.

Fire away - pick holes in my argument - any and all suggestions welcome - between the greatest minds on both sides of the pond I'm sure we can fix one 14.3 pony-mare :)

[Tootsie4U]

...not this very calm, very 'final' gesture. ...

Couple questions -

I *think* you do Parelli, so is this the circle game? Important question...

Do you interpret her rearing as a threat to you and your authoritative position? Or do you think she's just expressing her disfavor?

If its not the first but more so the last and she's not threatening harm, I'd basically answer back to her "Yeah, ok, now get on with it".

My horse is entitled to his opinion but that doesnt mean he can't do as he's asked.

The other thing is; we assume she knows whats expected of her, correct?

[KateWooten]

I *think* you do Parelli, so is this the circle game? Important question...

I'm not a parelli fan as such, but yes, this is the circle game.

Do you interpret her rearing as a threat to you and your authoritative position? Or do you think she's just expressing her disfavor?

hmmm... can I answer 'both' :) Yes, she has threatened me in the past, yes, I think this is a threatening gesture on her part now, and yes I do think it's a direct challenge that I need to handle (much more) effectively. And yes, she's certainly telling me that she does not like this exercise at all.

The other thing is; we assume she knows whats expected of her, correct?

I think so. I have a hesitation here. We are looking at a little horse who is sufficiently advanced in every other area of her training, that this exercise appears totally trivial. I mean, under saddle, she can sidepass and do halt-canter transitions, but more than that, on the ground, I can hold her on a 30 ft line and send her over an obstacle with no problem at all. At liberty we can do transitions from halt to canter and back just on body language, with inside and outside turns fluidly. She can figure-8 at liberty. And on a line, if I set up an obstacle course, I can send her in and out of barrels for example, at a trot, without this reaction.

It's just the circle game she reacts to so violently !

To me that's plain weird. I must be doing something - or have done something in the past - that provokes this very deep-seated resentment. I just can't figure out what it is, and how to say to her 'ok, I understand, I won't do that any more'.

editted to add : I can send her round on a circle her at a walk without a reaction... it's just if I ask her to up the pace at that point, so I think she does know what's expected.

[Tootsie4U]

Its the circle game, pure and simple.

Mine reacted with aggression as well. Even though he's trained to death on the ground (and relatively well in the saddle - he's young and green) he found the circle game in its more advanced stages confrontational. I dont know if you've ever chatted with Harry Hobbes (NR member) before, but he can give you the reasoning 10x better than I ever could.

In the experiments I did with my boy to resolve this, I found that body language played a HUGE part (duh) - so much that even just making eye contact or laying my eye on him made him defensive. He is a super intelligent horse, level 2, and very sensitive to what I ask him to do. The rules of the game didnt have to change, I just had to make sure I wasnt sending him any adverse messages with my body. When I got myself sorted out, we were able to do that game again without any hitch.

While it seems over the top not being able to even look at your horse while you play this game, it actually meant that he and I were so tuned into each other that we could play this game with only our eyes.

Try altering how you ask her to depart and see if that helps.

[KateWooten]

ok, I'm going to mull that over for a week or so (and let the ground in the round pen dry out ) and then report back. I'm absolutely sure you're right. Rosie is the same - super intelligent and willing little horse - and very very sensitive to my inept body language. I feel like I'm talking to her very very clumsily in my attempts, and she can only tolerate this massacre of her language to a certain extent.

I should keep my eyes pointed to where I want to send her, right ? And just send her by my positioning relative to the drive line ? If she moves in towards me with her shoulder, should I step towards her to 'push' her out ? Or should I just hold up the stick to block the inward movement ?

(btw to anyone reading, thinking 'well, if she does everything else just fine, why bother ?' - the reason for persuing it is because Rosie has taught me everything I know so far about horses ... she's an amazing teacher, and I guess I'm just in it to learn all I can !)

[Tootsie4U]

Think of it this way - you want her to go down a few pegs in her responses. So you need to go down a few pegs in your requests. Not so much energy out of either of you.

As I said, none of the rules need to change. You can still send her off the same way (look, lift & all that jazz) but just tone it down a little.

If you're playing the game, then why worry about what track she chooses to trot or canter on? Let her come in, just so long as she still plays the game she's supposed to be playing (traveling in the correct direction at the pace you've choosen until asked otherwise). That alone may be your problem. She thinks she's doing her part but you keep reprimanding her for reasons unbeknownst to her. I dont remember reading that she needs to use all 22 feet of the rope. Resist the urge to apply conventional riding principles to the 7 games. They're games, not rules. :)

[KateWooten]

That alone may be your problem. She thinks she's doing her part but you keep reprimanding her for reasons unbeknownst to her.

ah, now there's a nail and a nailhead you just hit.

every time I ask her, she does what she thinks I ask, and almost immediately gets some negative reaction, however slight. That alone, if it happens every time is going to sour her against the game.

Hmmm... and it's a game ! (funny, I can have the same lightbulb moment over and over again, and it's new every time !!!)

In the meantime, I went away and watched this week's Parelli show. Guess what he did ? He sat on a barrel and he showed me (again) how to play the circling game. It's game 5 isn't it ? And it follows game 4 - yo-yo. Aha! ( I said, silently, again). I think I can do that. I think I can yo-yo for a few minutes (as long as it takes to have fun) and then circle a bit. He said to play a game - 'don't make me pick up that stick' - see how little I can do to ask her to come in and go out, see how little I can do to ask her to circle.

(I suspect you might actually be PP - how spookily close your answer is to his)

I think I may acquire the new level 1 pack. I have no big desire to be a Parelli devotee, but along with everything else, every other source of info, it certainly seems to make a huge amount of sense. Every time I watch it, and every time you tell me, it all sinks in a little further.

[Jaimee]

Are you sure she is not in pain of any kind?? Remember circling or lunging is very hard for them to do, and As you get smaller and smaller the inside hind must step infron of the outside hind. I have a pony who started being aggresive when worked (was on the lunge cos he's too small for us too ride). It was out of character for him since he is sweet too handle and has never been a problem. He is only four but his handling is established. Anyway, we knew he wasnt right so two days ago we took him to a specialist and he had some major issues with the sacroiliac joint. He is on rest now and will come right. I believe this is the root of the behavioural problems. If the horse is fine in all other areas why would you think they are just doing it to be difficult? They dont want arguments anymore than we do, I always look for an underlying reason that might not at first be apparent. Check you groundwork language, but most horses wont in my opinion go THAT mad over a slight difference or incorrectness in you body language. If that is the case will that horse ever be safe for less knowlegeable people to handle?? I would be worried.

[teabiscuit]

my ethic is pretty much the same as yours KW and it always worked for me until the one came along that blew it all up in my face. she was homebred and had no bad history, her full sister is a saint. this mare is not unridable or untrainable, but she is tricky and will not bend her will if she doesn't want too no matter what tactics you use(never resorted to violence-she'd fight to the death i think). she refuses calmly and deliberatly like your mare does. she's just very self reliant. she came along after years and years of experience with youngsters and starting horses, when i thought i had it all sorted. i don't have it all sorted, how arrogant of me to think my tried and tested methods would work with every horse, this one wouldn't play ball and i'd had her from birth. she's the reason that i now accept that there are many ways round a problem and i believe an open mind is crucial when looking for answers.

[KateWooten]

Thanks for that guys. Jaimee, I will look further into pain issues. SHe has been doing this since she was not yet 3, and is the same at just turned 4... I know it's not saddle-fit/backpain because obviously she was the same before ever wearing a saddle... could be other joint pain etc though ? Knowing it was an issue for her, I've found I've been making the circles smaller and smaller - giving me more control ! I'm going to try backing her out to the end of a long rope and then asking for a big actve circle. That should give me more time to react progressively if she decides to barge in to my space.

Your story gives me hope teabiscuit. When I started the two of them last year, the little boy was all plain sailing. He came to me as an abused baby with scars all over his head. i told him I would never hurt him, and he said, ok, you're the boss and just tried his heart out for me all the time. My, what a great horsetrainer I was. Then came Rosie. Rosie does not forgive a single mistake. She cuts me no slack. But, when I get it right, oh wow ! Rosie is really the best teacher in the world, but I could have done with meeting her a few years down the line.

I can imagine, years ago, Rosie would definitely become a 'problem horse'. I can imagine a very good horse trainer with a 'method' that works great with most horses, coming unstuck with Rosie... honestly I do think that the seemingly minor nmistakes in body language, if repeated often enough can build up to cause quite a deep resentment - like constantly rubbing on a sore.

Jaimee, you're right, she is not likely to be a horse for a beginner ever. And that's fine, she's my forever horse, so no worries there. And remember, this is now the only issue we have together. Last week I rode her out along the road to a new place. I went even though this was the first time she'd been out in very high wind. We stood and chilled out in a field with a tumble-down barn. When a large chunk of the tin roof blew off, she spooked and ran 3 steps before turning and facing it and asking me for direction.

She's a very very good horse, but she only has a novice for a trainer.

[teabiscuit]

i wouldn't take too much hope from it KW, she's still hard work!
ETA by that i mean there isn't much "give" from her, though she's pleasant natured. i want to say i guess thats just the way she is, but that sounds a bit defeatist :(

[Tootsie4U]

...most horses wont in my opinion go THAT mad over a slight difference or incorrectness in you body language. If that is the case will that horse ever be safe for less knowlegeable people to handle?? I would be worried.

And rightly so.

But, these horses are the victims, not the villins. Your average horse owner wont have the education to deal with horses like this - or see a need to further their education. Instead, horses like this end up shackled beneath garbs of tack and other oppressive devices. I worry for my horse because if I ever find myself in a situation where I cannot keep him and need to sell I know my options of appropriate buyers would be limited.

In the meantime, I accept my responsiblity and do my best to make him a good all around solid citizen. In hopes that one day if circumstances lead us to parting, he'll have a better chance. Thats the best I could ever offer him.

Kate, go slow and be soft. Change the game and look for ways to play it with less obvious (ie. softer) cues and see if she appreciates the variety.

[teabiscuit]

i won't sell this mare on for that reason exactly T4U.
But my mare has never been a victim. before her, i would have blamed other variables, like inappropraite handling, inexperienced people etc, now i know that the horse is a variable too, even a "blank sheet" horse.
i'm not so quick to lay blame just at the humans door now, sometimes the horse is just not right.

[Tootsie4U]

Genetics, environment.... definately. Its not always the human 100% of the time.

For further discussion,

Placing blame on past occurance does no one any good. How can your horse move past a problem if you haven't? The past is better left forgotten, especially if you're dealing with horses. If you regard him/her as a rearer and constantly handle them as such, then how do they grow past it? I dont think they can.

Im not saying I cant sell my horse because of what happened to him in the past. Im saying that because he is such a smart and sensitive soul, that finding a new owner who will understand that quality in him and not confuse it with stubborn disobedience (ie. seeing his confusion in the circle game as a retaliation against authority) will be difficult. You're right, you cant change their personalities (shame on us if we do) but you can mold their behaviors into acceptable and unacceptable traits.

[teabiscuit]

suit yourself T4U eta you're making a lot of assumptions about my mare-for a start she doesn't rear

[ajhainey]

I don't see anything aimed at you or your horse teabiscuit - I think tootsie is mainly drawing on her experience with her own difficult horse (how is he btw tootsie - not seen anything from you recently)

Anyway what I really wanted to ask teabiscuit was what are you using eta to stand for? It's driving me nuts and I can't make anything fit because my brain keeps giving me 'estimated time of arrival' :D

aj xx

[teabiscuit]

edited to add-only just found it out myself :)
ETA my point is this - if i sold this mare she'd get every expert in the vicinity trying out anything they can think of.She'd have a rubbish life and people would think poor horse she's like it because she's been mistreated. she hasn't, she's just difficult and thats her nature. she's been handled slow and soft and with so much patience and time its not true.
most people would have got rid of her, i won't cos i know what will happen to her, what i'm saying is this, don't automatically assume its the handling.its misleading. T4U was getting back to the handling thing again, and i accept that in a lot of cases bad handling causes horses to have problems, just sometimes be aware that it could actually be the horse.this doesn't seem to be a palatable point of view to have on this board.

[KateWooten]

No, no, hold on guys, hold on ... I had to go away for the day, now I'm back and my e-buddies are all falling out :( Don't fall out guys - we're all saying the same thing here ... teabiscuit - I didn't read anything in T4U's words that were saying anything against you or your horse at all .... she was just saying 'we' as 'better', more interested, more concerned horse people, who have horses who are smart, sensitive etc (Rosie for example, your horse, T4U's horse ? I don't know, but the sensitive less-forgiving of my mistakes type of horse-onalities) have a duty, having understood them, to also go on to ensure they can have long happy productive lives in the human world... and not get labeled as problem horses at any stage. She was including you and your horse, me and my Rosie, and everyone else that has, and has recognised this type of horse personality ... because whatever made them that way they're not 'problem horses' ... any more than a highly intelligent 7 yr old child at school is a 'problem child' ... maybe misunderstood, and sometimes bored, but in our hands, if we keep our eye on the game and commit to constant learning, they never have to go through being passed down the line of increasingly desperate homes.

At least, that's what I think I read anyway... we're all just here helping each other out and sharing our experiences of what works to communicate more effecively with these type of horses.

Having met joe first, and then Rosie, I have been really lucky because joe, although he came with his abuse issues, really was a great 'first horse' in training terms. He's a born follower. His whole life is spent being pushed around by women (Rosie, me) and he loves it. Of course, when you look at the other relationship in this trio - Rosie and me - obviously that one is going to be a more dramatic one ! Rosie certainly does not look out for someone to lead her ! With Rosie, it's about me raising my game. Joe is so forgiving, that as long as I mumble along at all, he tries to make sense of my attempts to communicate. Rosie, at the other extreme, will ignore me, or otherwise find ways to evade or resist .... but she makes me get it right in the end ! That's whay I find it so rewarding to work with her - she's forcing me to become a much better handler.

[Tootsie4U]

...this doesn't seem to be a palatable point of view to have on this board.

Palatable? Not sure... but its probably uncommon. And it leads to a good discussion - how do homebred horses acquire issues that would classify them as 'problem horses'? Would they exhibit the same traits if you stuck them on the ranges of Montana in a herd of 100 wild horses? That'd be an interesting thesis for someone's graduate degree.

Teabiscuit, I wasn't phrasing a single word in any previous post on this thread relative to you and your mare. I was merely saying, objectively, that many problems arise out of misunderstandings between the species gap. Kate's interpreting her mare's behavior as defiant, but what about the possiblity that the mare is merely frustrated? Kate's speaking Japanese and the mare's speaking French - of course someone's going to get a bit frazzled.

And as far as my attempt to discuss why its sometimes hard to get beyond problems- try this analogy:

If I were a recovering alcoholic but everyone around me continued to treat me as a drunk - how difficult would it be for me to kick the habit? Quite.

And thats how it is with alot of owners and their horses. The horse did something in the past (rear), the owner become preoccupied with the possiblity that the horse will rear again so she advertently or inadvertently begins to treat her horse as a rearer. But as ajhainey said; this is me speaking from my own experience. I let my horse's past issues place reservations on us. It wasnt until I learned to keep the past out of the picture that he (and I) began to improve. I just wanted to throw in that extra tid bit of info for conversations sake to those who may be reading this thread and find themselves stuck in a rut desperate for a way out. I'd be willing to bet that 99.9% of us out there dont own problem horses with blank canvas' and so I thought it might be interesting to discuss that further.

Hope you all are having a much better day than I am here. Its raining buckets and I was hoping for some time in the saddle :(

ajhainey, thanks for asking :) Bon's been wonderful. I moved him home with me a few months ago and he's either finally grown up or the move has proved to be just what the doctor ordered. He's a saint - hasn't given me an ounce of trouble in months. I dare say it, but he's been much better behaved than my trusty ol' QH lately. He's made me very proud!

[teabiscuit]

i hear what you're saying, i agree a lot of that happens. i just think that some people get a raw deal and get the blame when sometimes its just unfortunate that the horse is not amienable to training. people can be thoughtless and it can hurt.
i've been trying to think how i can best describe my mares temprement. she's such a mass of contradictions.
i can leave her untouched running in the field with her mates for months, then tack her up and go for a ride and she'll be fine.
she can take or leave human company.
she can't get used to the sound of rain on the stable roof- it makes her very tense.
if she spooks at something she takes all day to get over it even if the spooky thing is removed immediately.
her spook-heart beats wildly, eyes on stalks, shaking-at things she should be ok with.she's genuinly scared.
if she doesn't want to do something she calmly and deliberately uses her size (she's shire x tb 16.2hh and chunky) to ruthlessly stop you, its quite cold blooded. the request is reasonable. if you persist over days a bit at a time (ie give her every chance) each day she reverts to the beginning so its tough to progress.
but if she learns something, it stays with her - like i said i can leave her untouched for ages and have no worries about riding her again as long as its within boundaries she sets. she won't "go with you" if you know what i mean, ther is no give on her part.
Odd....
she was three weeks overdue and i do wonder if she has some brain damage?

i also know of a very experianced breeder, a lady who had a 6 month old foal put down as it was completely unreasonable, even as a baby. she was scared it would kill someone eventually.that foal had no trauma in its life either, no reason to behave like it.
so i apologise for being over sensitive about this, but i do think its important to say that sometimes it is the horse, and the owner may be at their wits end and its not right to say a certain method works with all horses. that is unfair and untrue.

[Tootsie4U]

...i do think its important to say that sometimes it is the horse, and the owner may be at their wits end and its not right to say a certain method works with all horses. that is unfair and untrue.


I agree(d) with you. 100%.

But, then I ask, is the horse a hopeless lost cause? Is the only option to accept them the way they are? Accept that some days, they'll fight you to the end and your only option is to throw in the towel and hope for a better day?

Serious question without implement. This isnt a new topic either. I made a thread months ago on this very subject. I dont think there's a defined answer.

Good discussion :)

[teabiscuit]

tbh i think my mare is a lost cause, i wouldn't sell her (risk her being passed from pillar to post) i won't breed from her in case she passes on this weirdness and i frankly get so much more from my other horses. she doesn't enjoy humans either! she's quite happy to munch away in her field. luckily she runs on 15 acres of rough grazing so she does have as natural a lifestyle as possible in captivity :)
i think the core of the matter for me ( and i've only just realised this) is that NH demos like monty roberts give the impression that all the horses need is the right handling, by their very nature all you see is a dramatic change in the horse he's demonstrating. you don't see that he's already picked suitably responsive horses

[KateWooten]

Mark Rashid, in one of his wonderful 'Chicken Soup for when you're feeling down about your whole horse handling abilities' books ( :) ) tells of several horses that he personally felt he could not 'help'. Mostly, I think, it's the handler, but in the very very rare case .. it's the horse ! I mean, it's like with children isn't it ... almost every occasion we see a child acting up in Wlamart, we also see an inconsiderate, or uncaring, or can't be bothered to learn how -parent. But occasionally, we just see a 'differently abled ( :) )' child.

Anyways, guys I have an update for you on the actual pretty rearing horse, only I just have to go and run errands ... hold on !

[prettybluepony]

(btw I've only really red the first post, and scanned through the others but here goes)

Does she barge past you in the stable, field, as you lead her, does she nip you, and try and push you around? By the sounds of things she is very smart, and seems to be trying to take control of things.

[KateWooten]

She's very smart ! And adorable. Nope she doesn't barge or push at all ... she has, and I'm gloating, ... almost perfect ground manners. I can leave her ground tied anywhere (that doesn't have grass underfoot) or she will 'stay' on a patch of grass where she's put ... she'll tie and wait for me for hours... when I lead her anywhere, I put her head at my shoulder and there it stays no matter what I do, I never feel a horse on the end of the leadrope. I can slam to a halt, or take off running full pelt, and she'll follow perfectly never reaching the end of the leadline at any point. She stops and waits before walking through a door or gate, always. She'll move her shoulders or hindquarters over on just a bush of the fingers, and she'll sidepass quite happily on the ground or under saddle. She always comes in from the field when called. The only one thing I would admit to not having quite got right yet is that she does look to me for advice if she sees something scary, and she will just occasionally get too close to me with her shoulder ... it's not a barge me out of the way thing, it's more a huddling behind me for protection !!

And guess what too ... thanks to Tootsie and Pat Parelli...... drum roll ....... She will TROT AROUND IN A CIRCLE :) :) :) :) OMG I am so excited about it !!! You would think I could have got over this by now !!! I Had to learn to 'drop the big stick and walk softly'. The breakthrough came in conjunction with buying my own trailer :) :) :) Now, I really have a proper job to do, and I really have to get her circling good, else I'll never get her trailer loading happily. So I thought and thought about it, and dropped my eyes to the ground. After the first time gosh it was so easy. I just looked at her feet and concentrating on one foot moving the way I wanted it too ( Very John Lyons) and before you knew it I was where I should have been all along, behind the drive line and gazing softly... .and one step at a time, before you know it you have a circle.

Next came 'upping the pace' and because I didn't have my proper whip to hand, I had to just grab a dead twig out of the hedge. OMG it was a transformation. I was wrong about 'the right equipment'... it really does matter how springy the stick is. My long dressage whip is far too whippy even when I use it ever so gently - it is still 'punishment'. This new twig is 4ft 6, straight and rigid. Tapping her bum with it is just that - a slightly annoying tap. She trit trots around her little circle just fine now with just a smile and a 'let's go' from me, and the resistance never even flicks across her mind - it's just easier for her to trot a little bit for me and then come in for a hug. See, I had to learn to 'pick up the big stick again, and still walk softly !!!'

She's doing great figuring out the trailer. We've been at it Sunday morning and evening, then Monday morning and evening, then it's rained since then. We've gone from no feet anywhere near to 2 1/2 feet inside confidently, and all 4 feet nervously. One more session and I think we'll have all 4 feet calmly, but it doesn't matter how it takes because we're on our way :)

[prettybluepony]

Thats Great!!!! I love smart horses, just love them. Good luck with the trailer!

[Tootsie4U]

Happy to hear it!

It sounds like we have two like minded horses. Let me know if I can ever help further :)

[teabiscuit]

well thankyou for the kind words, what makes me wonder about her is the fact that she never gets used to anything! like the sound of rain on the stable roof.
she finds it very hard to cope with new experiences, its sad because she's a stunning mare, jet black with a white blaze and two white socks behind.
ETA just reading this back, my description of her behaviour reminds me of certain behaviour patterns of an autistic boy that i look after! wish i hadn't thought of that :(

[herbyhorse]

You breifly mentioned being late due and brain damage this is something I have considered with a few "peculiar" and unhorsey foals I've known, who have turned into untrainable/slow steads.

does anyone know more about this?

HH

[teabiscuit]

i don't know any more about this other than what i've experienced with my mare.
i think most people will sell such horses on (no criticism, they won't realise that the problem is with the horse and may think it needs a more experienced home), maybe through a sale, and the buyer will assume that the horse has been abused in the past and put it down to that, so any history will be lost unfortunately.
i think there will be very little research into problems like this, which is a shame.
if you do find out anything, i'd be very grateful if you'd pass any information on to me. i'd be glad to know i'm not on my own, and interested to hear about anyone elses experiences too.
if i can help with descriptions of her behaviour etc i'd be glad to.
thanks xx