Training Pyramid Question

[SailleCinza]

The training pyramid goes: rhythm, suppleness, contact, impulsion, straightness, collection.

Here' s my problem. When I warm up before beginning true "work," I do so on a rein of long length on loopy circles at the walk and trot. I've always accepted the fact that as we did so she resisted my inside leg and went about crookedly. However I realized (duh) that doing so she might be relaxing, but it would be more difficult for me to align and balance her afterwards. Plus she wasn't truly working thorugh her back. So I've been taking a shorter rein so that I can half-halt and push her off my inside leg, or push her haunches out, and the result is that she takes a steady contact on the outside rein and works through her back. Once she understands what I want (I've only been doing this a few weeks and I need to remind her at the beginning of every ride) I can let her take the reins to the ground and work long and low to stretch and supple her.
Okay, I haven't gotten to my problem yet. The thing is, I don't understand the pyramid! It seems backwards to me! (Well, not entirely... collection clearly belongs at the end) How can you keep your horse in a rhythm without a light contact? How can you create a contact without straightness? This problems ESPECIALLY plague me at the beginning of a ride, when Coolatta needs corrections involving half-halts. I would understand if the pyramid was an ideal (like that you need a light contact to maintain a rhythm but you don't have TRUE contact until your horse is supple) and this explains away my correction-problem but I have NO idea how a horse can have impulsion and be moving supply and on a contact without being straight! It seems like body alignment (straightness) should come right after rhythm!

For clarification: When I mention straightness I don't mean working in a straight line. I'm talking about working the horse on a single track, with the body properly bent or straightened according to the figure you are working on. For example, circling with the haunches in or body over-bent would not be straight.

[Shiny McShine]

The training pyramid goes: rhythm, suppleness, contact, impulsion, straightness, collection.

How can you keep your horse in a rhythm without a light contact?

...This problems ESPECIALLY plague me at the beginning of a ride, when Coolatta needs corrections involving half-halts.

Rhythm refers to the horse taking even, rythmical steps, something he is capable of in the paddock and thus does not require contact to perform.All you need witness is a good western rider or if you have ever seen one of the masters of the Spanish Riding School riding piaffe with the reins on the horses neck to realise this is possible.

The whole principle of putting rhythm first is that the horse learn to carry himself in rhythm of his own responsibility, something he will not learn if you hold him from the bridle continually. A horse with true rhythm should be able to maintain that rhythm on a loose rein, and this is how the young horse first learns a correct rhythm, without constraint. If he rushes then yes the rein may be taken up and a half-halt/outside rein aid applied, but when he regains the rhythm he is given rein and the responsibility again and thus there is no consistent, correct or true contact required at this stage, in fact it may be detrimental.

How can you create a contact without straightness?

...I have NO idea how a horse can have impulsion and be moving supply and on a contact without being straight!

Contact is the soft, steady connection between a horses mouth and the riders hands and nothing more. I have Klimke's Dressage in Detail series which shows some very good examples of crooked horses that have otherwise perfect contact with their rider's hands. I'm sure there are many dressage tests been ridden where the contact has been unfaltering, yet the hindquarter's have been trailing to left or right at some stage.

.....

I really love the idea behind the training scales and I believe it has a vast application in training horses for performance riding, however it is very difficult to explain it in this context, so I hope I haven't confused things more.
I can definitely see how it might seem a bit backward in a regular training scenario... and I don't think it was meant as a hard and fast rule, but it can be helpful and to me does make a lot of sense. I generally work with natural-horsemanship principles and I think it correlates very well there, but I used to primarily ride dressage and obviously that is it's intended application.

[Willingbe]

I think the articles in the Horse Magazine have a good explanation of the scales of training, so I won't try and elaborate on them but just give you the link to the web-site:

http://www.horsemagazine.com/ARTICLES/D/Dierks,%20Clemens/Part%201/PART%201.html

The articles are in six parts, first part refers to rhythm, links to parts 2 through 6 are at the bottom of the first part.

[SailleCinza]

Shiny, what you said about rhythm makes a lot of sense in theory, however while I understand that a horse does not need contact to have rhythm in the pasture, a young horse will be inclined to speed up and slow down as it balances itself under a rider (as will an untrained/spoiled horse) and it will need minute corrections consistently in order to remain in rhythm. Obviously they should be made mostly with the seat after a feather-light half halt, but if you continue giving the reins after a correction you won't be able to pick them up quickly enough to correct the horse immediately when it changes its rhythm. Also in Willingbee's article they show the younger horse going into a rhythm while clearly on a contact (I do not mean in any way being held onto it, but rather a light and elastic contact which the horse accepts with its head in front of the vertical.) They associate rhythm with working supply through the back so that the horse becomes like a fluid metronome, without tension. The only way I know how to work a horse to stretch through its topline is through holding a light contact and encouraging the horse to reach for it by creating a tiny bit of impulsion in its hind legs.

Clearly I'm the one here who needs to learn something. I'm not arguing with you :) you must be right because the German training scale is agreed upon by masters of the sport, and compared to them I have no experience whatsoever. Also, what you said about a horse having contact while being crooked made sense and I've been overcomplicating things there. Thank you, and I'm going to keep looking for answers.

[virtuallyhorses]

.... So I've been taking a shorter rein so that I can half-halt and push her off my inside leg, or push her haunches out, and the result is that she takes a steady contact on the outside rein and works through her back.

How can you create a contact without straightness? When I mention straightness I don't mean working in a straight line. I'm talking about working the horse on a single track, with the body properly bent or straightened according to the figure you are working on. For example, circling with the haunches in or body over-bent would not be straight.

You have already answered many of your own questions :) In your first para you acknowledged that you created a contact by asking for a bent horse - haunches out. Contact and straightness are not in any way related. I've ridden many wiggly, diagonal, unstraight horses that are happy to take a contact. That's why straightness is so far up the scale - simply taking an elastic contact on the mouth doesn't mean that the rest of the horse (or even the shoulders!) are under your control.

As for straightness, you are perhaps missing what true straightness means. Its not just correct bend. Straightness involves each foot being in the correct track. The vast majority of horses will have one or both hind feet tracking inside the track of the front feet. Straightness involves having a foot at each corner AND having the hind feet track up behind the fronts. This is much harder for the horse (and rider). Take a look at your horse at canter - the inside hind will often slide under the body - sometimes so much that it uses the track of the outside front. This is a horse's natural way of going because its easy.

Err and I presume you don't mean I'm talking about working the horse on a single track :D This would mean that all four feet would be on the same track - like a gymnast on a balance beam. To be straight the horse must be on two tracks - one for each side :) Most horses however, are on 2.5 tracks or even 3 tracks in the canter. This is why exercises like shoulder-in etc are performed to teach the horse (and rider) to move shoulders or haunches as desired. Only then can the rider place the neck in line with the shoulders in line with the haunches - each taking weight evenly and finally creating true straightness

[virtuallyhorses]

Found a photo that might help

http://www.finnflyinge.com/images/05syyskuu/Tristan%20canter.jpg

This horse has a nice contact, good impulsion but not straight - look at the back leg sweeping UNDER the body at canter this is fairly typical of most horses esp on a circle - even when they have correct bend and flexion the horse will try not to be straight because that is harder work .

Compare that to this horse, Salinero - who despite a loose contact is remarkably straight in the canter - the hocks are correctly bent and remain on the side of the horse that they belong on - not swinging under the body of the horse.

http://www.anky.nl/images/cms/DW_Salinero_erelijst.jpg

[Shiny McShine]

...a young horse will be inclined to speed up and slow down as it balances itself under a rider (as will an untrained/spoiled horse) and it will need minute corrections consistently in order to remain in rhythm. Obviously they should be made mostly with the seat after a feather-light half halt, but if you continue giving the reins after a correction you won't be able to pick them up quickly enough to correct the horse immediately when it changes its rhythm.

Why won't you be able to pick them up quickly enough? I'm not talking about throwing the reins away here, just giving with the elbow to make sure the horse has nothing to lean on. Also I guess you wouldn't be using a loose rein in terms of "on the buckle" loose, but something like a long rein without the contact. I guess the ability to quickly make a correction is something that a rider become progressively better with over time.

Also in Willingbee's article they show the younger horse going into a rhythm while clearly on a contact (I do not mean in any way being held onto it, but rather a light and elastic contact which the horse accepts with its head in front of the vertical.) They associate rhythm with working supply through the back so that the horse becomes like a fluid metronome, without tension. The only way I know how to work a horse to stretch through its topline is through holding a light contact and encouraging the horse to reach for it by creating a tiny bit of impulsion in its hind legs.


What I see in that horse in the article is one that has progressed through the stages of rhythm, looseness and contact, and they are going back to improve the rhythm further. This horse would have had his initial lessons learning to travel with rhythm in his first months of being ridden, and I can only guess from looking that this horse has progressed past that stage. Lessons on rhythm and looseness should come quite soon after a horse first begins proper ridden work in the school as they are indeed the fundamentals and I would hazard to guess that when this horse first learnt a rhythm he did so on a much longer and less established outline, without a proper contact.

There is no reason why a horse that has progressed through the stages should not go back and work on the basics, infact it is of great importance. If there is ever a problem with one stage of the training scales, chances are something lower is not working.

I think we are all here to learn something, I certainly am, and you don't do that by keeping your ideas to yourself, so no hard feelings to anyone who doesn't agree with me on this or anything. I wouldn't call myself and expert and have been known to be wrong in the past :P.

Cheers,
Shiny.

[SailleCinza]

To clarify for virtuallyhorses, I misused "single track." I do indeed mean that each foot is in the correct track for the figure - two tracks on a circle, instead of the three you are on in a shoulder in, for example.

[cvb]

you must be right because the German training scale is agreed upon by masters of the sport

yes - but its defined in *german* - the article that willingbe posted a link to comments that the german version of rhythm is "takt" which has more to it than simply rhythm !

One other comment - you seem to be using "straight" as in "unbent" where as I believe in this context you need to think "uncrooked". i.e. you can be straight around the corner if you have the correct bend etc. If you were actually straight-like-a-line (not bent) "-----" around the corner, you would be crooked and hence "not straight" !!!

[SailleCinza]

One other comment - you seem to be using "straight" as in "unbent" where as I believe in this context you need to think "uncrooked". i.e. you can be straight around the corner if you have the correct bend etc. If you were actually straight-like-a-line (not bent) "-----" around the corner, you would be crooked and hence "not straight" !!!
Yes, of course. Did you read my original post? I said:
For clarification: When I mention straightness I don't mean working in a straight line. I'm talking about working the horse on a single track, with the body properly bent or straightened according to the figure you are working on. For example, circling with the haunches in or body over-bent would not be straight.
Another example, Coolatta tends to avoid bending properly travelling with her haunches a bit to the inside and escaping through the outside shoulder - often I can correct this by riding shoulder-in in large arcs.

[cvb]

Saillecinza

should have been more precise with me "you"s ;)

I have a migraine today so am not going to attempt to explain anything...it would be a bad idea right now.