Tom thumb bits - confused

[mu0ljk]

Having read an earlier thread entitled tomb-thumb bits verses kimblewicks I'm a little confused.

This is the thread where they show tom thumbs, http://www.newrider.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=78088

but, I thought this was a tom thumb,
http://www.thesaddleryshop.co.uk/product_info.php/cPath/153_241/products_id/972?osCsid=8e9a0a28242413dda6b4c3e6d483dcb2

this is what I have been advised to use on Sid when I go out for a canter or x-country as he has a tendency to just go flat out in open spaces and I really just cannot stop him. They suggested a pelham or the tomb thumb. But having read the other posting it sounds as though the tt is really harsh? Is this so, or is it perhaps what I need in order to get him to listen and slow down if we go out anywhere? Some advice would be great as I am not an expert on bits at all.

When I took him to the x-country ride he was in a Dr Bristol and he had a flash on. (His teeth back etc are fine).

:confused:

[Pink's lady]

That looks more like an Argintinan snaffle with horrible tounge pressure rings on it to me. Tom thumbs have a curb.

Tom Thumbs are horrible bits if used for direct reining. The Argintinian snaffle works more like a dutch gag.

If you need more brakes, try eithe a pelham or a dutch gag, both using double reins. Dr bristols aren't nice bits - they put soooooo much pressure on the tounge.

[mu0ljk]

The pelham was what I was advised to use first - I think the only reason they (I keep saying they - the yard owner and friend) suggested the tom thumb/argentinian bit was because they had one in the tack room but no pelhams. I'm pretty sure I have seen somebody with a dutch gag though that I could borrow to see if it will work. I intend to ask my instructor as well when I go in a couple of weeks.

He's usually ridden in a loose ring french link snaffle but he tends to lose his head in open spaces - I know he was hunted a lot and his previous owners I know used to just let rip on beaches and up hills. In any other situation he's lazy! If only it was the other way around! :rolleyes:

[mu0ljk]

Pink's Lady you advise to use double reins for the pelham and dutch gag. Would I be able to use roundings or would this negate the effectiveness of the bit?

[Tangle]

The advantage of using double reins with pelhams or dutch gags is that you have much more of a choice on the bit's action. Most of the time you can ride off what is (approximately) a snaffle, but with the 2nd rein to bring the curb/gag action into play as and when you feel it's needed. If you use roundings on a pelham then that flexibility is taken away. I've never seen a dutch gag used with roundings - more often with a single rein attached to a lower ring so that the gag action is used continually. In both cases, riding off a single rein will make the new action "standard" so its effectiveness will be reduced.

Does he tend to run with his head up or down? Pelhams & gags have very different actions - pelhams ask a horse to lower his head while gags ask the horse to raise it (have a look on sustainable dressage (http://www.sustainabledressage.com/tack/bridle.php) for a good overview of what the different bits are doing).

How quickly does he try to run in open spaces? If you stay in walk, does he still try and charge off? A stronger bit might help in the short term, but helping him to understand that "space" doesn not equal "mad gallop" might be a better long term solution ;).

Good luck :)

[DavidH]

I have a 5 1/2 inch dutch gag and an american gag (looks like the pic of tom thumb but without all the rings etc) that you are welcome to borrow and try.

Whilst in theory it is best to use 2 reins on the dutch gag or pelham I would advise against it for XC. You really don't need the complication of two reins baering in mind that you will have to slip them on every drop fence. Going xc you will be either running with a loose contact or applying brief checks to set up for a fence so the snaffle rein is really not needed.

[mu0ljk]

DavidH that is so kind of you to offer a loan of that bit! Having been doing a little research the pelham sounds like the better of the 2 (pelham v gag). But there seem to be so many different variations, should I get a mullen, ported or arch-mouthed!?!

From reading around it seems the jointed pelhams are contradictory in their action, and the mullen may not be enough? But of course I don't want to over bit him?

I also am a little concerned about being able to handle all the reins whilst everything may be going pear shaped which is why I asked about the roundings and think DavidH I agree it is one less thing to worry about!

Tangle Sid puts his head right up in the sky and occasionally evades by twisting his head to one side.

He was ok in walk unless another horse is in front moving at a faster pace in which case he has to get in front and will get in front and then he is ok. But when there were no horses in sight I asked for a canter and he just exploded and went flat out and I had absolutely no control. He has also done it at home in the bridlepath field too on his own and in company. I thought it was because it was in the direction of home but he has done it in the opposite direction too! :rolleyes:

[1 morejump]

You are right, a jointed pelham defeats the purpose. Use it with two reins as roundings only confuse them. I would suggest a Mullen mouth, it is curved to fit the contures of the mouth. You can always add more (port, etc.) later. I like starting out gently and working up from there.

[Lgd]

You can also get Tom Thumb Weymouth bits - which are just a very small weymouth for use in a double bridle set and are just a smaller version of conventional Weymouth. - now you're really confused! :D

[tasha]

I've used a dutch gag with roundings on snaffle and bottom rings which worked well for Kal at the time. It meant I had some feel on her mouth still, but with the gag action for brakes etc. Single reins on the middle ring wasnt strong enough and on the bottom ring was too strong (yes she is a complicated mare!) and the roundings were the happy medium. Double reins not an option for XC with me either as Kal is a difficult ride, strong and anticipates shortening reins to mean go faster.

To be honest its horses for courses so I'd pick one and give it a go!

[mu0ljk]

Thanks for the replies guys! I am going to try a mullen mouth pelham tomorrow :eek:

I feel as though I must be a little mad to be deliberately getting on board a horse to see if I can stop him from galloping off with me but hey ho!!! I guess its the only way to do it! At least it'll be in an enclosed area (large but enclosed!) and I won't have to worry about other horses.

Gulp...I'm not looking forward to this!!

Having said all that I bet Sid will be perfectly well mannered tomorrow!! (well I can hope anyway!) ;)

ps, LGD yeah thanks, you did really confuse me!! :p ;)

[eml]

Just to add to the confusion I have always regarded tom thumb as associated with a pelham with very short sides ie gentle ... a bit like Lgd's weymouth!!!!

As regards your problems have you considered a split rein on a pelham then you can adjust the effectiveness of snaffle v curb action. I must confess however I am a fan of kimblewicks, easy to understand, lowered hands give curb action higher hands give snaffle action.

[vimto92]

Not to be funny or anything but don't always rely on the stronger bit... this is going to harden your horses mouth and we all know what that means.

Ideally you want to be softening his mouth. But in this case maybe a stronger bit is the best option.

When he is going flat out how do you try and stop him? By giving and taking or a continuous pull?

[mu0ljk]

Well! I did it this morning after a lot of putting off! (I got a lot of housework done this morning! ;) ) I used a straight bar pelham with roundings (sorry all those that don't like roundings! :o )

I decided to ride him for 10/15mins on the school to get used to the feel - and for him to get used to the feel and then take him across the bridlepath.

To begin with I just walked him around with no contact and then gradually started to take up the reins and he did start to search for the contact which was great. He actually moved beautifully in the pelham - really using his back end. When I asked for canter he was a bit reluctant and tossed his head a bit. I think maybe that was my hands upsetting him so again I loosened the contact and asked again and then we got a canter. Again I then gradually took up the reins again as we were cantering. I tried some transitions the 1st of which we went directly from canter to halt!! So I tried again a little softer with better results.

Then across the bridlepath!

Again I had to really encourage him to go forwards and tell him that it was ok to canter. We had a lovely slow collected canter. I did this few times and then Sid decided to test the bit out a bit and we set off fairly fast. I let him move forward and then started to try to slow him again whereupon he very politely (as always!) ignored me. :rolleyes: So I asked a bit more and bit more (by which time the gate was coming up) and then I said no, stop.

And he did.

:o

Unfortunately, it was such a sudden stop that guess who went over his head?! Yup, I ended up on my knees but still holding the reins!! It was a good fall! Quite flashy - I felt like one of those dancer that go sliding across the floor on their knees! :D I got back on and had another shorter canter away from home and then called it a day.

All in all it was a success but I think we both need to get used to the pelham before we go out and about with it. Sid needs to get used to it and I definately need to play around with it to figure out how hard I need to go. Because I also don't want to create another problem where he starts backing off of it or rearing because I am being too hard with my hands.

Thanks for all your replies guys I was really at a loss with all the differrnt types that were around!

Oh just to answer some questions, Vimto, Sid does have a hard mouth - from beginners and from hunting probably. When he goes I have tried simply asking him to stop, a give and take, long hauls on the rein, feeling with each hand, throwing all contact away, circling (which usually works in the end but I would like him not to run in the 1st place!).

eml, yes I have read about the split reins and they seem like quite a good idea. Now that I know the pelham works I might invest in a pair.