Geting head UP!

[WelshJumper]

Go on the Andalusein {sp} today she was really nice to ride but found that she goes with her head right down, i meen down. Very over bent.
I think she has had a peossa aid or somthing on in the past.

Any idears how to get her head/neck up and in the right outline. Or is this how dressage horses go? LOL.

She is in a little losering french link

[Tootsie4U]

A horse behind the bit is tons harder to fix than a horse above the bit.

My only suggestion is to ride her on a very loose rein for awhile and PUSH her forward.

[WelshJumper]

Yer, I droped my rein on her neck and she was the same. So tryed lifting my hand's and asked her to move from the hock more. She came up for a few strids the back down.

[Skyhuntress]

Gah, that's almsot the hardest problem to fix. It's such a pain in the ass.

Anyways, really drive forward. You also want to hold contact with the reins, not let it go because she can only lean on the contact (and go behind the bit) with the amount of rein you give her. every time she drops her head too far, you want to lift your hands up in a quick movement (what this does is lift the actual bit in her mouth) Don't hold and don't do it harshly (because you don't want to hurt her mouth) and continue to drive her forward. You might have to do it every 4-5 stride, but with patience and consistency, you CAN break the habit.

[prettybluepony]

This is the reason why we shouldn't use things that make the horse go into position. It should be done by good riding. The dressage outline can be acheived by careful, skillful work, which creates a lot less problems then these "aids" do(no damage to spine etc.,)
If she has been lunged or whatever on this the it will take some work to get her out of the habit. Drive her on with your legs, and keep riding as best you can, keep nice, loose reins, and avoid over contact with the mouth. Keep a light contact. Try long reining, and lunging her, with nothing from her mouth to back, or anything, hacking out etc., get her to relax and know that if her head moves out of the position, no one will gab her in the mouth, or force it back down again. (any photos, it may help if we can see the problem ;) it's easier to find the root of the problem.)

EDIT; thought i'd add.
If she has had the peossa aid used on her, she will be trying her hardest to stay behind the bit. This aid attaches then bit to behind the leg. Every time she strode with this on, with the "side reins" on, not only could she not move her head up wards, her spine was being forcefully, (maybe painfully) bent, but she was gabbing her self in the mouth. All this = Poor horse. Can't blame her can we ;) I'm not accusing you, as it's clear you haven't used it on her, just explaining why she will be unwilling. To get her out of this, you must make her see she doesn't need to try and escape being gabbed in the mouth anymore. :)

[casey]

.)

EDIT; thought i'd add.
If she has had the peossa aid used on her, she will be trying her hardest to stay behind the bit. This aid attaches then bit to behind the leg. Every time she strode with this on, with the "side reins" on, not only could she not move her head up wards, her spine was being forcefully, (maybe painfully) bent, but she was gabbing her self in the mouth. All this = Poor horse. Can't blame her can we ;) I'm not accusing you, as it's clear you haven't used it on her, just explaining why she will be unwilling. To get her out of this, you must make her see she doesn't need to try and escape being gabbed in the mouth anymore. :)

The Pessoa is actually designed to ensure a correct frame by engaging the hindquarters. I haven't known any ill effects from using the pessoa.

Most likely to be draw rein damage.;)


The Pessoa engourages the horse to work over the back, not forcefully bending the spine. :(

[Tootsie4U]

every time she drops her head too far, you want to lift your hands up in a quick movement (what this does is lift the actual bit in her mouth) You might have to do it every 4-5 stride, but with patience and consistency, you CAN break the habit.

Will you help me think this through?

With a horse that is having trouble going BEHIND the bit, how will this work? Think of the mechanics of the bit and pulling. If the chin is tucked to her chest (extreme case) and you bump her head up, the bit will just raise in her mouth. I only see that making her raise her head - not come back to verticle or even above, which I think would be ok for this remedial case.

She has to be retrained to accept the metal in her mouth and not tuck behind the pain/restriction it causes.

[cvb]

Go on the Andalusein {sp} today she was really nice to ride but found that she goes with her head right down, i meen down. Very over bent.
I think she has had a peossa aid or somthing on in the past.

Any idears how to get her head/neck up and in the right outline. Or is this how dressage horses go? LOL.

She is in a little losering french link

I know its not always easy to see from on top, but what angle was her nose at ? You don't seem clear whether this is "too far down" or "ok" ...

What is her level of training and what is the "right outline" that you want ?

As Tootsie says, its an interesting dilemma as to how you get a horse that has learnt to back off the bit to trust it again. What sort of contact did you have ? there are some sneaky remedial things you can try, like combing/stroking the reins (I've described it somewhere else - if I can refind it I'll post a link).

Casey - the sustainable dressage site says something similar to prettybluepony about the pessoa - I'll see if I can find that link as well !

[cvb]

the pessoa link

http://www.sustainabledressage.net/tack/gadgets.php#pessoa

[cvb]

copied from previous thread where we were talking about getting a horse to stretch down....

1) stroke the neck. In some dressage tests you get "stroke the neck" and what they mean is release one rein forward. But in this case I really DO mean stroke the neck - with one rein only. If he has a hard and soft side, stroke the "hard" side first (so the remaining contact is on the soft side).

2) stroke the reins. This time its both hands. Also called combing the reins. If you haven't done this before it can take a few times to get a rhythm. Normally you hold the reins with them coming up from the little finger to the thumb... take the reins in one hand, turn the free hand so the back is "up" and put your hand on the reins below the other hand and ahead of the wither, so that your first finger is between the two reins i.e. the rein is coming from the thumb and out by the little finger. Now you can let go with the "first" hand and comb or stroke the rein with your "second" hand, bringing the hand back towards you. As the reins slip through your hand, put your "first" hand where the second hand started, and comb with that one. So as the "second" hand reaches the end of its stroke, the "first" hand is already in place and moving. repeat in a rhythm. Try it at halt first to get the idea, and then at walk. (May even be worth trying it with the bridle off the horse and on a hoom first )

You may find the horse reacts by snatching the head down, but they do settle.

3) massage at the third vertebrae. You know that point on the neck where horses get a "kink" when they've been worked in draw reins ? Well, as you walk around, reach forward with one hand (reins in other hand) and use thumb and forefinger to massage either side of the mane. The horse may lean into you at first. Be firm but not aggressive.

[casey]

the pessoa link

http://www.sustainabledressage.net/tack/gadgets.php#pessoa

Thanks for the link. It is interesting to get other peoples views. Though I must say, i'm not a fan of sustainable dressage. IMHO its extremely biased towards dressage and anything else is either torture or completely wrong.:rolleyes: So I keep that in mind whilst looking at that site.

However, I do have a Pessoa, so can speak from experience. It certianly doesn't pull my horses head below the verticle, the horses are flexible along the back and I much prefer it to side reins (as I dont like a fixed head):)

[cvb]

casey

I've not used a pessoa so its all anecodotal from my point of view.. there are stories of people over-tightening them too early and having horses flip over. I don't know if thats urban myth or not ? any piece of equipment we use incorrectly has a risk factor....

In theory an over-tight side rein could equally well have a "tick tock" effect on the head and mouth as the horse moves...

[Skyhuntress]

Will you help me think this through?

With a horse that is having trouble going BEHIND the bit, how will this work? Think of the mechanics of the bit and pulling. If the chin is tucked to her chest (extreme case) and you bump her head up, the bit will just raise in her mouth. I only see that making her raise her head - not come back to verticle or even above, which I think would be ok for this remedial case.

She has to be retrained to accept the metal in her mouth and not tuck behind the pain/restriction it causes.

Normally, with a horse that is tense and resisting of the bit, you would recommend letting them go forward and downward, making them learn that they could step into contact while still going forward.

The problem with giving her LOOSE contact though is that she's only able to tuck behind the bit with however much contact she is given. Ideally, if you have a horse who has a severe case, you shouldn't even be caring about getting him ON the bit, your goal should just be to raise his head (even above vertical would work right now, and lifting the bit in their mouth does tend to have this effect) so that you can work on getting in the proper head position through forward movement instead of overdependance with the bit. When the horse’s nose is behind the vertical, the thrusting energy of the hind legs does not travel through to the poll. Now that's not to say you really want a hard contact either, because then she'll probably constantly pull to revert herself again

I do really agree with cvb in stroking the neck. A lot of times, they get so stiff in their vertabrae and neck muscles that they CAN'T straighten out and it can help loosen it. In extreme cases, chiropractors are called out to help :)

[Tootsie4U]

Normally, with a horse that is tense and resisting of the bit, you would recommend letting them go forward and downward, making them learn that they could step into contact while still going forward.

The problem with giving her LOOSE contact though is that she's only able to tuck behind the bit with however much contact she is given.

...still struggling with this.

But she's tucking because she thinks contact is bad. No matter how much contact she's given, she'll still feel it and in her mind even an ounce is going to hurt.

I appreciate you trying to help me through this. :)

[Skyhuntress]

Ok, well this is my rational.
And I wonder if we arent getting tied up in my wording (and if so I apoligize) I don't mean "up" by lifting the hands straight up. I mean it to be lifting the hands up more towards the heck...so forward up the neck.

Say you have a horse who is SLIGHTLY behind the vertical. You'd want him to engage his hind end more so that he literally pushes himself out through forward motion. However, you also need a place for that foward motion to GO, so you'd maintain some contact to prevent the horse from falling on the forehand, right?

Now, the OP said that her horse was extremely overbent...probably caused by draw reins, would be my guess. The problem with horses behind the vertical is that they tend to really pull on the rider. So she is probably shy on contact, which would lead to the thought of "let's really let her out long and loose", which is good in theory. So you have a horse now who is really tense and constantly pulling to get her head down, and then tucked in. You want to prohibit her from doing that, because chances are, she'll pull and pull to the point that you have NO contact and she'll be unbalanced because she'll be on the forehand so much (which is also why, even when doing free walk in dressage tests, you are NEVER supposed to completely throw away your contact)

To correct her behavior, you obviously don't want a LOT of contact, because then it will result in a major pulling war, but you want enough so that you can really drive and have that energy going somewhere-and also provide a half halt in able to check her from constantly pulling. When a rider lifts her hands up (ie forward up the neck) every 5-6th stride, lifting the bit in the mouth (and also loosening the neck for a split second) and also causing direction, she is basically checking the horse (almost like an inverted half halt) and lifting the head for a brief moment and letting the horse understand that she'll get a release even while still maintaining contact.

I hope that explains a bit better LOL


The other option you can try is get some loose side reins and longe her, concentrating on really getting her loose and swinging. The side reins will still provide some semblance of a contact, but they should be loose enough that if she really DOES want to stretch, she's able to, so long as she maintains a forward rhythm (which she can't if she's ducking)

[parsharainbow]

You might want to PM MeMe I think she had this problem with Zak when she first had him :) I'm sure she wont mind giving you some help from her experience :)

[WelshJumper]

LOL, I jump Zak for meme!

Her head is right in {if her head was up it would be touching her chest} but its about 1ft off the ground. and in.

Thanks for all the idears and tips! any more

[parsharainbow]

what a coincidence :D didn't she have that problem with Zak originally :confused: except I dont think his head was down, I think she said before it was overbent :) Anyhow I'm not going to say anymore incase I say something else blindingly obvious hehe :p :p :p

[Tootsie4U]

Say you have a horse who is SLIGHTLY behind the vertical. You'd want him to engage his hind end more so that he literally pushes himself out through forward motion. However, you also need a place for that foward motion to GO, so you'd maintain some contact to prevent the horse from falling on the forehand, right?

Ok, after your clarification, I dont think we're that far off.

Anyway, re. the quote. That I dont quite agree with. If the horse is TRULY engaged and pushing from behind, then he physically can't be on the forehand. Its impossible. The only exception would be a horse who has some major conformational fault. In your example, the reins only 'capture and contain' the energy, it doesnt create balance or the headset.

And this seems like a remedial case. The horse is knowingly backing off the bit - a conditioned behavior it has learnt from previous riding/training experience. The best way, IMO, to *uncondition* that behavior is to remove the cause. In no uncertain terms, you have to tell the horse that what bothered her before is no longer part of the picture. Ride on the buckle and get her moving out under you.

Its worked very quickly with the few I've helped retrain, including my own horse who wasnt all that bad to begin with. In truth, its an amazing exercise that does so much more than just recondition a horse. Its great for the rider too!

But thats why this sport is so neat. There's so many ways to do one thing. :)

[WelshJumper]

This is how low her neck is but her head is also tucked in. Like on the 2nd pic in GREEN

[jenren!!]

Is this not called 'round and down'? This is actually quite acceptable, as an exercise that is. It is almost the ultimate in stretching exercises but is only an exercise and is not a correct way of going or any kind of classical
movement. Everything is being stretched and is exactly what we want.

However, it is NOT a normal working position and if a horse works like this normally it is a massive strain on a horse's top line. Somewhere along the line someone will have tried too hard getting this horse into this position, and making it almost permanent. How to prevent this? Well, id have to get my schooling book out...:rolleyes:

Jenny

[jenren!!]

Where did you get the pictures from?

Jenny

[cvb]

one of the problems with the nose being tucked in when their head is so low is (in additional to what it can do to the back :( ) that they can not see where they are going !

not going to post or say much today as have migraine so may start (continue ? ;) ) posting gobbledegook.....

[jenren!!]

Oh dear, get well soon :)

Jenny

[Tangle]

Jenren, I've more often heard it refered to as "forward, down, out" the impression I've got from what's been described is more "down, round, in". From what I've been taught I'm inclined to thing the latter, while possibly useful as a stretch, is very incorrect if it becomes the horse's standard way of going as seems to be the case.

There are two ways I'd try and handle it: Either take away the reason (as Tootsie suggsts, ride for a while with NO contact so she has no reason to tuck). The other is to give her a huge amount of praise everytime she comes up (you might be doing this, but it's not clear) - if she's been taught that "down, round, in" is good, you need to get across that bringing her head up is a Good Thing ;).

Hope your migraine goes away soon, CVB :)

edited to add - I think the pictures are taken from the sustainable dressage site, linked earlier. As an aside, it's always an idea to reference where photos come from - otherwise you're implying you have ownership of them.....