pelhams/kimblewicks - what type? Argh!!!

[mu0ljk]

Hi, I recently posted a thread about Sid getting way too strong and fast in open spaces. (Took off several times on a x-country course and has taken off at home across a bridlepath field. x-country he had a dr bristol, a flash, and a martingale. Is usually ridden in a french link snaffle)

He puts his head way up in the air and tends to open his mouth and put his head to one side. I have been advised at home and on here to try a pelham. But what sort!? There are the straight bar ones - some of which are metal and otheres rubber/vulconite. Or there are the ported ones which are supposed to be kinder (if I have understood this correctly) by giving room for the tongue. Then there are the kimblewicks which I am unsure as to what they actually are. Are they another type of pelham again or are they completely different?

What type of pelham/kimbelwick do people tend to use? Or is it very much an individual thing?

Thanks for the help. Feel a little out of my depth with all these bits around. And I don't want to put anything awful in his mouth through lack of knowledge!

[prettybluepony]

My suggestion is try him in a straight bar, and jointed(happy mouth, whatever bar type you use now) and when you find what he goes well in stick to it.

Now me, I don't like roundings, as I think your giving a bit of confusion onto the mouth. As you ride, use the upper "snaffle like" rein, still holding the other, just using you hands effectivly as so to use the rein your holding in at the bottom. As he begins to go off with you, use this rein still, only using your whole hand, which takes the bottom rein into effect, and so the curb chain. This may, or maynot stop him dead. Try and be gentle still, as if this bit is yanked you can ruin a horses mouth. (just thought I'd give that advice, I'm all for horses, and I really don't like roundings :D)

[eventerbabe]

"technically" a straightbar/port mouth pelham will work most effectively. the jointed oned don't have exactly the same action but i rode in a jointed pelham for years because my horse preferred it to a straight bar. the vulcanite pelhams i don't like, my old pony came to me in one and it was horrid and thick. i'd be inclined to suggest you try a metal pelham first and always with 2 reins!!

kimblewicks come in the same types as the pelham. i like the slotted kimblewicks because you can have the reins on the upper slot or lower slot, depending on how 'exciting' a situation you are in.

[domane]

Cherry is in a slotted, low-ported Kimblewick and if she is excited enough will completely ignore me bracing myself by STANDING in the stirrups and heaving backwards on her mouth - she is one, strong tough cookie! I HATE having to do this, not because it puts me off but I really hate to think about what this is doing/has done to her mouth. I am about to try a jointed pelham... That way I can ride on the snaffle rein most of the time and use the curb only when needed..... perhaps the extra leverage on the curb chain will kick in??? :confused:

[jenren!!]

The Kimblewick is part of the Pelham family, yes, but it has very short cheek pieces, is used with only one rein and is attached to large rings beside the bit. Because the reins slide to the top of the metal rings its action is very similar to that of a snaffle.

A pelham on the other hand, does exert some pressure on the poll, especially when a horse lifts its head high. The type, well, it depends on what your horse likes. If he has a small mouth (like my horse) a rubber or vulcanite pelham will be too chunky in his mouth and will do more harm than good. Whatever the type of mouthpiece he has in now, keep it but you will still have the control. If you start changing mouthpieces as well as action it could just confuse her and make the problem worse. The again, a change in mouthpiece may even make a difference. You dont know until you try!

Jenny

[mu0ljk]

Thanks for your replies! After doing a bit of reading around I think I shall try a straight bar pelham. Fingers crossed that will do the trick! :o

[jenren!!]

Let us know what he's like :)

Jenny

[mu0ljk]

Thanks, I shall do. It will probably have to wait till next weekend (not that I'm putting it off or anything... :rolleyes: ) but I will definately let you know how he responds! :)

[mu0ljk]

Well! I did it this morning after a lot of putting off! (I got a lot of housework done this morning! ;) ) I used a straight bar pelham with roundings (sorry all those that don't like roundings! :o )

I decided to ride him for 10/15mins on the school to get used to the feel - and for him to get used to the feel and then take him across the bridlepath.

To begin with I just walked him around with no contact and then gradually started to take up the reins and he did start to search for the contact which was great. He actually moved beautifully in the pelham - really using his back end. When I asked for canter he was a bit reluctant and tossed his head a bit. I think maybe that was my hands upsetting him so again I loosened the contact and asked again and then we got a canter. Again I then gradually took up the reins again as we were cantering. I tried some transitions the 1st of which we went directly from canter to halt!! So I tried again a little softer with better results.

Then across the bridlepath!

Again I had to really encourage him to go forwards and tell him that it was ok to canter. We had a lovely slow collected canter. I did this few times and then Sid decided to test the bit out a bit and we set off fairly fast. I let him move forward and then started to try to slow him again whereupon he very politely (as always!) ignored me. :rolleyes: So I asked a bit more and bit more (by which time the gate was coming up) and then I said no, stop.

And he did.

:o

Unfortunately, it was such a sudden stop that guess who went over his head?! Yup, I ended up on my knees but still holding the reins!! It was a good fall! Quite flashy - I felt like one of those dancer that go sliding across the floor on their knees! :D I got back on and had another shorter canter away from home and then called it a day.

All in all it was a success but I think we both need to get used to the pelham before we go out and about with it. Sid needs to get used to it and I definately need to play around with it to figure out how hard I need to go. Because I also don't want to create another problem where he starts backing off of it or rearing because I am being too hard with my hands.

Thanks for all your replies guys I was really at a loss with all the differrnt types that were around!

[jenren!!]

Thats good, i tell you, experimenting is the best thing! :eek: Ouch! Cant say iv ever been over a horses head so i dont know what it feels like but hope there's no bumps or bruises :D . I love riding in pelhams, gives you a great feeling of control but when you use two reins it has almost the opposite effect (too confusing :( ).

Jenny

[domane]

:eek: WOW!! That really DID work!!! I'm really sorry.... I know I shouldn't .... but I had to stifle a giggle when you said you went over his head!! I think it was the humorous way you wrote it... Hope you are not stiff... at least you know it WORKS!!! :D

But on a more positive note, thank you for posting the update.... it has convinced me that I'm sure a pelham is the way forward for Cherry when out hacking in company. She is working beautifully in the school in just a snaffle now but the lady who is educating her also told me she wouldn't ride Cherry out in just the snaffle (I have done so in the past, but then I'm strong!!) Cherry was quite fussy with the straight bar of the Kimblewick and even though it was ported, I don't think it suited her rather fleshy mouth and tongue. I am plumping for trying a jointed pelham which I think will suit.... but I won't know until we try... I'll let everyone know too, if you like.....

[mu0ljk]

Domane definately let us know how it goes! I have asked a more experienced friend to come and watch me ride in it just to give me some tips. Hopefully though I will stay on this time though!! :D

And no, I laughed too actually (afterwards!) when I came off. Especially as I had jokingly said, 'ha ha I bet he'll stop dead and I'll go straight over his head!' So serves me right really!! :D :rolleyes:

[Lucyad]

I really like vulkanite pelhams (dont kow if it is just because I am old enough to remeber Barbara Woodhouse:D ) My share mare was unstoppable when excited but a quiet ride apart from that, swapped from a snaffle to VP, with double reins, and you can be gentle when needed but stop and steer when hunting, galloping and jumping, which was new to us both! Absolutely changed horse, I would recomend it to anyone (without roundings). I ride Oscar in a snaffle as he doesnt tank off, and listens to it, but for extra brakes while not 'over bitting' when they arent mad all of the time it is great. By the way share mare HATED a 3 ring gag - too severe too much of the time and she really wasnt keen showjumping in it (though still manages to tank off X country).

[Mossy]

Cant say I've ever been over a horses head

I nearly went over Con's head when she got both front feet stuck in the mud. She almost went over her own head!!!!!
Personally I don't like jointed pelhams as a class but some horses do. However roundings just serve to confuse, try a kimblewick instead. Good luck

[eventerbabe]

if you aren't wanting to/able to use 2 reins with a pelham then i agree with mossy, try a kimblewick. when you have roundings on, theres no separation of the 2 different actions of the bit. so when you asked your horse to stop, and he stopped suddenly, i'm not surprised because you are putting into action the full force of the curb action. you are also more likely to get your horse backing off a contact by not using the bit in the most effective way (i.e. 2 reins).

a slotted kimblewick might be worth trying. if you feel you need the extra breaks, you can put the reins on the lower slot.

[katefarmer]

I hate to be a damper, Mu0ljk, but I suspect the pelham will only work for a short time. If he went through a Dr Bristol (which is almost universally considered to be very severe, and to be avoided), all you're getting now is the novelty effect of another bit, and he will soon go back to old habits.

The problem is that he's not listening to you - it's not about the shape of the metal in his mouth. If he is really worried, he's going to run, no matter what bit you have - and the more pain, the worse it will get. Putting his head up, opening his mouth, skewing his head - these are all signs of distress and discomfort - and I think if you want to find a long term solution, you must look at re-training him and winning his confidence so he no longer feels the need to run.

If you have a look at my website - under the "Bridling and bitting" and "curing rushing" sections, you'll find some ideas for retraining. Retraining can be lots of fun and very rewarding for you and the horse - as well as improving the understanding between you. It takes a little longer than buying a new bit - but has lasting effects and is much safer in the long run. Why not go back to the plain french-link (NOT Dr Bristol!) and try changing the "software" rather than the "hardware"?

Cheers

Kate
www.harmony-project.net

[domane]

Sorry to hijack this thread but I just want to thank Kate for pointing out the obvious to me which was so in my face that I didn't see it!! Cherry IS currently in a re-training schedule, just started, and the very experienced lady (and far better rider than me :o )who is helping me has currently forbidden cantering until she is able to control her walk and trot better. I really think Cherry has just been used to being put on a bit of soft ground and told, in effect, to "Go"... which is why she pulls as she thinks that is what is expected of her. I am hoping to re-educate her out of that! I walked her (the WHOLE way) round the fields recently and whilst she got sweaty at the anticipation of galloping off, she listened to me and didn't really make too much of an attempt to pull... in fact at one point I was riding her on the buckle - very relaxing. She is back in a snaffle and working nicely. Back to the drawing board and starting again.

[nelle]

After a scarey episode whilst cantering today I have decided that I'm not going to canter whilst out hacking for a while and am going to work at controlling walk and trot when I'm out and just practice canter in my lessons in the school.

Hopefully it will restore my confidence which has taken a bit of a knock and get my horse listening to me more.

[mu0ljk]

Hey guys - wow even more replies! Thanks, I appreciate all your views!

I rode him again in the straight bar pelham and he was a super star. :) He was nice and forward on the menage not at all backing up which I felt he was doing last time. We went across the bridlepath again and we had the calmest canter across AND I asked for trot across the 2nd half which he did very sensibly. So all in all I am very pleased!


Katefarmer, I am only intending on using this bit for when I intend cantering whilst out hacking (which isn't often) or when out on farm rides etc. At all other times I do ride him with the french link snaffle. He's a complete dobbin really in all respects apart from when he is in large open spaces (the fields at home not inluded).

As to why he does this, well its not fear it really does seem to be a 'wohey I can as go as fast as I like' reaction. I think I mentioned before that his previous owner regularly rode him hard and fast over the south downs and he was regularly hunted. So I think he probably now just thinks that that is what he is supposed to do.

I'm not sure how to go about retraining him to stop him thinking this! It has been a long time since I have cantered across the bridlepath - I stopped doing this as we would never do it under control and I wasn't happy with this.
I tried it again and he took off again. (The tack and his back teeth etc are all fine.) He has also taken off with the french link snaffle which was why I tried the Dr Bristol. I do understand what you are saying though katefarmer!

He is fine when jumping, it really does just seem to be when he is in a large open space.


But I think from how he reacted today we'll be ok. :) He went very well in it!

[Cheeky]

Glad to hear things worked out :)

am just about to put Missy into a slotted kimblewick .. I love these bits :p My old mare had one - and she went places! I am hoping this is 'the bit for her' .. as I cant afford any more :p

Keep us updated with how things are going :)

[mu0ljk]

Thanks Missy! Good luck with the kimblewick! I know some of you have said to try a kimblewick but isn't that even stronger than the pelham? Doesn't that only have the curb action, whereas doesn't the pelham either with double reins, split reins or roundings give you varying degrees of adjustment depending on what you do with your hands ie raise them, lower them, tilt them forward etc?

Don't hesitate to correct me if I have got completely the wrong end of the stick!! ;) Also, does anyone know where I could get a pair of split reins that are full sized and cost less then £39?! I have had a look but can only find one place and they are more than I want to spend considering how often I will be using them. I think it was Denver saddlery but don't quote me on that! :D

[Cheeky]

Lol ..

Missy went well today in the kimble - we rode her out in the 30 acre paddock, with a small section cut off. all her horsey mates were there (and a few cows) watching .. she tested us out a bit .. but was quite nice.

good luck

[Kate F.]

I'm not sure how to go about retraining him to stop him thinking this! It has been a long time since I have cantered across the bridlepath - I stopped doing this as we would never do it under control and I wasn't happy with this.
I tried it again and he took off again. (The tack and his back teeth etc are all fine.) He has also taken off with the french link snaffle which was why I tried the Dr Bristol. I do understand what you are saying though katefarmer!


To retrain his way of thinking you have to be able to refocus his attention onto you at any time and to have him waiting for your signals. Then what he has done before becomes irrelevant, you can always bring him back to you and he will wait for you to say what to do next. This is a very important thing to be able to do anyway - whatever bit you choose. It won't happen overnight, but it's well worth working at - and it pays dividends in all sorts of ways - not just control in the crisis. How to do it is explained in detail, with photos etc. on my website. It's really not such a difficult process - just takes a little time and being very consistent - just like anything else with horses!:D

[Mossy]

Thanks Missy! Good luck with the kimblewick! I know some of you have said to try a kimblewick but isn't that even stronger than the pelham? Doesn't that only have the curb action, whereas doesn't the pelham either with double reins, split reins or roundings give you varying degrees of adjustment depending on what you do with your hands ie raise them, lower them, tilt them forward etc?

Don't hesitate to correct me if I have got completely the wrong end of the stick!! ;) Also, does anyone know where I could get a pair of split reins that are full sized and cost less then £39?! I have had a look but can only find one place and they are more than I want to spend considering how often I will be using them. I think it was Denver saddlery but don't quote me on that! :D
Hi
Both pelhams and kimblewicks have a curb chain and therfore act on the curb grooove and poll. Then things can start to get a tad complicated. A kimblewick, is ridden with one pair of reins and can be slotted or not. If not the reins can move around the D ring in response to the angle in which the bit is sitting in the mouth which in turn is goverened by how hard you pull, so if you are riding along on the weight of the reins and just take up a soft reminding "I am here too" the action is "snaffle ish" with minimal curb. If you hang onto the reins the horse is getting a constant inescapable curb, and poll action and an action on the bars as well. A kimblewick with square slots for the cheek pieces has much more of a poll head lowering action than a rounded slot. A kimblewick with slotted D rings as three rein options, through the rings as before, through the upper slots which fixes the bit in the mouth and is said to be the "snaffle option", or the lower slots which is more curb orientated. Personally I have never successfully ridden using the slots.

A pelham is designed to be riden with two pairs of reins. The top reins use the snaffle action of the bit, the lower ones the curb, ie jaw softening , poll curb groove etc. Some folks, me included, find the pelham great for education using the snaffle most of the time but the curb is a polite reminder and removes any need or temptation need to haul on a snaffle. In my opinion all roundings do is remove any ability to differentiate between curb and snaffle, give a constant poll and curb action, and encourage the horse to lean. Two reins on a pelham pulled sideways is also airbrakes when really necessary and all else has failed. However it is a real in emergency break glass option. [The knowledge that airbrakes are there does concentrate neddy's mind when really onward bound :D :D ]

As far as mouthpieces and curbs go personally I don't like jointed mouths and curbs. I reckon one negates the other but it suits some folks so if it works for you....
Sorry about the treatise but I hope it has helped. Elwyn Hartley ? explains it much better

ANY BIT IS ONLY AS HARSH AS THE HANDS ON THE END OF THE REINS

[Yann]

My horse goes really nicely in a rubber pelham and roundings, used to school her in it too but just use it for more exciting hacks now. Snaffle for schooling / something more for hacking is quite a common configuration. We do use it with an elastic curb though, if you're going over your horses head because the brakes are too sharp that might be worth considering:D Whatever works as far as I'm concerned, I've never found that there's been any escalation in the amount of brakes required.

[jenren!!]

Im a snaffle fan :D What i will say though is you're the only one who can see whether the bit works for your horse, if you think the pelham works, great!

Jenny

[mu0ljk]

Thanks jenren! Yes I think I have found the correct combination at the mo! A french link snaffle for everything bar x-country or fast hacks in which case the pelham - a straight bar one which was what I tried - I agree the jointed one sounds as if it would negate the curb effect although I know some who use it with no probs!

When I said I went over his head, Sid was stopping but he was also trying to go into a spin at the same time. I think that was just the 2 of us unsure in my case how hard to squeeze the reins and in his case of the different sensation. Since then he has been a perfect gent!

Missy, thanks for the explanation - makes a bit more sense now! And KateF thanks for your advice!

And good-luck everyone else with their future bitting issues!