Can't go barefoot because of needing studs, etc.

[KarinUS]

I am just wondering what kind of specialized riding the people do that have to keep their horses in studs to perform.
It can't be Eventing (http://www.naturalhorsetrim.com/Section_23_full.htm) because there are plenty of horses out there that are trimmed to perform well in this discipline.
And it can't be Steeplechase (http://www.thehorseshoof.com/barefootperf_race.html) because last years winner at Folkstone was barefoot.
The horses on the Houston policeforce are barefoot, so it can't be prolonged road work either...
Or Endurance (http://www.thehorseshoof.com/barefootperf_endu.html).
So what is it?:confused:
Is it just that some people don't bother to find a trim that works for their discipline/horse and if the first trim/trimmer doesn't offer instant success they just give up on it all together? Nobody would quit riding purely based on one incompetent RI, right?

[Dreamchaser]

I had a plan of having Dolly barefoot, but I am told that she gets bruised without shoes... I still might give it a shot and see if I can work it out for her.

[CMR]

Some people just don't care anything about going barefoot, and then some don't know of all the fantastic barefoot trims out there, and just listen to their RI or farrier and stick with shoes.
I'm curious about the Houston Police force though, I didn't know they were all barefoot. I thought alot of roadwork forced shoes, to protect the legs, perhaps I will open a thread about this, :p

[Bay Mare]

It's scary to go barefoot because it's different and a lot of people with *warn* you off it including some farriers who seem to have a habit at the moment of telling people that it's illegal for barefoot trimmers to be trimming (it's not because they're not intending to hammer a shoe on afterwards).

The other *problem* with barefoot is that the OWNER needs to commit to it. It's a lot more work than just getting shoes banged on once every 6 weeks.

Then, of course, you need the right trim! A lot of people who have problems with barefoot transitioning aren't having a 'barefoot' trim. It does make a difference.

It's also scary if you take the shoes off and your horse is sore, especially if they haven't had any perceivable problems in shoes. The fact is that it CAN happen but that once you get past that and really get transitioning and proper trims it's really worth it. There are also boots to consider for the initial part though not everyone does.

Someone said on another board that people will accept a lame horse that has been shod without too much fuss but not a barefoot horse who's a bit footy for a couple of days after having their shoes removed. How true!

The other thing (and I've come across this personally) is that a lot of the people who decry barefoot have never even SEEN a 'barefoot' (rather than pasture trimmed) horse never mind actually thought about it or researched it!

Oh, Karin, you forgot Simon Earle's barefoot racehorses :D

Needless to say I've got Saff barefoot and it's one of the best decisions that I've made for her (along with cutting out all hard feed). I'll never say that I would never put shoes back on her but I sincerely hope that I never, ever *need* to. That's a get-out clause, btw, just in case I have to, I have absolutely NO INTENTION of letting anyone with nails and a hammer anywhere near to her feet.

[Cochise]

I still believe it's entirely up to the individual horse and owner. Freedom of choice and all that. I only ended up barefoot, not because of the "success stories" of other people, but because I turned my horse out for the winter, without his shoes. We didn't end up having a holiday at all. I rode him lightly all last winter and he did really well. He continued to do well over the spring and summer. I was going to reshoe him because I had planned to jump him again. (Wanted studs) Then he got the laminitis, and I can't jump him. So I kept him barefoot. It's just worked for us, so I'm happy to keep him barefoot.

[Mehitabel]

just because horse A copes fine barefoot to event, for instance, though, doesn't mean that horse B will be able to. Some horse can cope happily doing sharp turns on grass barefoot, some can do the same in normal shoes and some need studs. We have one livery who needs road nails to do absolutely anything, and even when backing her she didn't cope barefoot, she had to be shod with road nails almost from the beginning because she was losing her footing and losing her confidence.

not every owner has the time available to do conditioning work to get the feet able to cope, for instance i can only ride once a week or once a fortnight - i couldn't put in the hours of walking inhand or finding different surfaces to condition her feet.

for a horse who has been shod for ten or more years, the transition process might be too painful to put it through for an unknown result.

[No_Angel]

i had to have maddie shod with road nails as she slipped all the time, now shes fine barefoot, doesnt slip half as much.
she was also shod most of her life (being 16 on saturday and racing from the age of 5).
i do sometimes think it would be easier to have her shod again, in all this wet weather she has become uncomfortable again, we didnt have any problems when she was shod, but i just felt it was better for her being barefoot (one of my other horses feet crumbled when she lost a shoe, now her feet are beautiful barefoot) shes fine on grass, fine on tarmac, but the country lanes with the little stones are proving a problem, so ive been walking her out everynight this week on stones hoping to improve her feet (she keeps losing boots)

[tasha]

It's called freedom of choice. Although I see the benefits of barefoot, I prefer to keep Kally shod in front because I know she will have a longer transition period than most, and being at uni I dont want to waste my riding time. Afterall, that is why I have horses and what I bought her for (although I wouldnt get rid of her purely because she became unrideable). Tali is barefoot mainly to save money, but we wouldnt have done it if we thought she would have had to take extra time to change over like Kal would.

You could apply what you are saying about shoes to anything in life. Why wear clothes? Modern heating in houses will help keep us warm, and what with the ongoing debate about global warming, we should be fine to go naked 24/7/365 soon. We could always slap on suncream when the sun is out and air con helps keep us cool if needs be. So why wear clothes which we have to keep clean, or buy more when new fashions come out or they get broken or too big/small?

Sounds a great idea, thinking about it! No more conforming to fashions, having to change for different occasions, or embarrassment because we would all be in the nud together. OK everyone, stand up and be naked!!!

[MelanieD]

Flat footed hooves do seem to have less grip on grass/mud than nice concave ones so I guess those would appear to need studs, though they aren't usually the kind of feet that would be up to doing cross country straight out of shoes anyway. I know a horse that needed studs just for schooling on grass when shod but is fine barefoot. Road studs or road nails usually aren't an issue at all, barefoot horses have far better grip on roads than shod ones. Some do genuinely need studs for some surfaces but I think quite a few horses would cope barefoot rather than shod with studs whose owners just don't have the confidence to try it because they think they'll slip without studs. Some that just aren't shod, rather than 'proper' barefoot, have very far from ideal hooves so appear to need shoes/studs when maybe they wouldn't with a better trim etc.

not every owner has the time available to do conditioning work to get the feet able to cope, for instance i can only ride once a week or once a fortnight - i couldn't put in the hours of walking inhand or finding different surfaces to condition her feet.

Conditioning and all the walking in-hand isn't really as bad as it seems, and the walking in-hand is mostly something for problem hooves and that's only recommended to be about 20 mins a day. For most horses with decent enough feet you can get away with riding soon after taking the shoes off with boots if needed. Most horses are fine on grass or good arena surfaces without boots almost straight away. If you want the hooves to cope with a lot of roads and rough tracks totally bare then conditioning and consistentish work level is quite important, though doesn't have to be every day, but if you are willing to use boots when needed you can get away with a lot.

Time spent in shoes doesn't seem to be a good indication of how difficult it'll be to transition once the shoes have been on for maybe a year or more, by then the hooves have already adapted to shoes and with good feet and a good farrier may not get much worse from there on. One of mine was difficult and reaching the point of not keeping shoes on after about 18months in shoes, some have had far less problems after shoes removed after years wearing them.

Edited to add: I don't think Karin is trying to say everyone should go barefoot (which some people seem to have read it as), just asking what people think they need studs for?

[tasha]

Is it just that some people don't bother to find a trim that works for their discipline/horse and if the first trim/trimmer doesn't offer instant success they just give up on it all together? Nobody would quit riding purely based on one incompetent RI, right?

Also, round here, farriers are like gold dust, and the ones that are qualified wont take on any more clients. So people stay with the one they have as long as they are reasonably happy with their work. Im sure if there were a few trimmers advertising the benefits of barefoot round here they'd soon get booked up.

[chev]

I am just wondering what kind of specialized riding the people do that have to keep their horses in studs to perform.

In my case, and the yard where I have lessons, none particularly. Just ordinary work. So far so good with my lot, all of whom are in fact barefoot; but the yard horses are all shod.

Is it just that some people don't bother to find a trim that works for their discipline/horse and if the first trim/trimmer doesn't offer instant success they just give up on it all together? Nobody would quit riding purely based on one incompetent RI, right?

Not at all. But in the case of the riding school horses, they did try it and found some difficulties that are pretty much impossible to get around.

First was the fact that the horses need to stay in work. Not always possible certainly in the early stages of going barefoot for all horses.

Second is the variety and level of work involved; the horses tend to do so much roadwork in the summer that the feet simply cannot grow fast enough to keep up with the wear and tear. In the winter, the ground is wet, they do more work in the school on surfaces and they don't get enough wear.

The school did actually try it; the level of one-to-one commitment on feet alone did mean that it was always going to be a struggle for them, and it became impossible to give the trimming the time it needed.

Even just keeping up with what Gelfy needs from the point of view of barefoot is hard work for me right now; and that's just one pony, not a school full.

The other point is that even my trimmer has said that barefoot is not neccessarily going to suit every horse. He's not yet had one that had to go back to shoes, but he has said that to say he never will is probably unrealistic. Domestic horses will always need foot care and balancing to keep their feet conditioned; because of the way we keep them, and the type of land on which we do, the foot is never going to be subject to the same stresses and conditioning that wild horses' are. As a result, if we want barefoot to work, we essentially have to do the work that domestication means the horse cannot do for himself. Great if you have the time - but not everyone does.

I'd always aim for being barefoot after seeing the difference in Gelfy; but differences in type, conformation, workload, work type, environment and available time do mean that it's not going to work for every horse and owner.

[Mehitabel]

Conditioning and all the walking in-hand isn't really as bad as it seems, and the walking in-hand is mostly something for problem hooves and that's only recommended to be about 20 mins a day. For most horses with decent enough feet you can get away with riding soon after taking the shoes off with boots if needed. Most horses are fine on grass or good arena surfaces without boots almost straight away. If you want the hooves to cope with a lot of roads and rough tracks totally bare then conditioning and consistentish work level is quite important, though doesn't have to be every day, but if you are willing to use boots when needed you can get away with a lot.

it's not a question of it being as bad as it seems - i have no time to do any of it full stop. i need my horse to be able to stand in a field all week or for two weeks and then at a weekend go and work on roads, stony tracks, slippy grass and in a sand school, all year round. she is happy and sound in shoes and able to do this, so i have no incentive whatsoever to put her through discomfort of conditioning and limit my riding so much.

i am by no means the only person who has this kind of routine, either - many of our liveries can only ride at weekends due to full time jobs, and have neither the time nor the inclination to start experimenting when their horses are happy and sound as is. it's a different story if the horse has issues with shoeing or your farrier is no good, of course, but i have absolutely no incentive to change.

[MelanieD]

it's not a question of it being as bad as it seems - i have no time to do any of it full stop. i need my horse to be able to stand in a field all week or for two weeks and then at a weekend go and work on roads, stony tracks, slippy grass and in a sand school, all year round. she is happy and sound in shoes and able to do this, so i have no incentive whatsoever to put her through discomfort of conditioning and limit my riding so much.

IMO even 'I don't want to' is a good enough reason not to go barefoot, I don't believe all horses should be barefoot, so this isn't meant to be an attempt to 'convert' anyone. But there are a few myths about transition that really aren't right. Partly some of the worse side of the strasser lot, but also a lot of the early barefooters did it as a kind of last resort because their horses had problems even with shoes, for those kind of hooves it is a lot more difficult.

There shouldn't be any discomfort involved in conditioning if it's done right. Some of the more idiotic of the strasser lot have been known to force horses to walk when lame, other methods don't do that. Generally the idea is to find a way to make the horse comfortable (boots, boots and pads or nothing but their own hooves if they are ready for it) so they are landing heel first then any excercise done is very beneficial to the hooves as long as you don't seriously overdo it. Ideally at first you do 20 mins a day of that work, for really poor feet that really need some structures improving that can make the difference between being successful barefoot or failing. For horses with basically good hooves that are just used to shoes you can get away with a lot less, even down to letting their feet adapt to their everyday environment and then using boots if you want to do a lot of work in just one day on stones or roads. You can be creative with the environment and get away with no conditioning at all (hard dirt yard and hyperactive and annoying orange horse to encourage movement was one of my conditioning avoidance tactics :D ).

Limiting riding is kind of a worst case scenario as well. Many horses that have gone barefoot due to problems with their hooves do need time off. But, for basically healthy hooves that are just used to shoes it can be as straightforward as use boots for riding for a while to avoid too much wear until inner wall thickens up and can cope with the wear without boots.

Even just having to put boots on is more hassle than some people want though, those horses IMO are better off in shoes.

[Mehitabel]

IMO even 'I don't want to' is a good enough reason not to go barefoot, I don't believe all horses should be barefoot, so this isn't meant to be an attempt to 'convert' anyone.

why on earth not? given the horse is sound and happy in shoes, why should it not be the owner's choice to shoe or not? not talking about my situation particularly here, but in general?

[Tootsie4U]

Someone enlighten me. Why does it seem there are negative conotations associated with owners who shoe their horses these days?

Neither of mine are shod because neither needs to be. But some horses live a better life in shoes whether thats due to genetics, environmental conditions, or use, why does it matter?

[tasha]

IMO even 'I don't want to' is a good enough reason not to go barefoot, I don't believe all horses should be barefoot, so this isn't meant to be an attempt to 'convert' anyone.

Mehit - I think you've miss a word here

[Mehitabel]

oops, yes i did! sorry, ignore last post...

[Yann]

Of course it's the owner's choice whether or not to shoe, if I thought on balance that Rio and I would be better off with her shod then shod she would be. The little pony we've had the shoes off all winter and been fine without is now being shod because she can't cope now the grass is growing and making her footy, simple.

But, for basically healthy hooves that are just used to shoes it can be as straightforward as use boots for riding for a while to avoid too much wear until inner wall thickens up and can cope with the wear without boots.

That's been my experience so far:)

[MelanieD]

:D I'm honestly not enough of a hoof obsessed anorak for what Mehitabel thought I said :D :D

Shoes are really useful if used sensibly and done by a good farrier, though personally I prefer to avoid them unless really necessary. Plenty of people with sound shod horses have no reason to want to ditch the shoes but the occasional break from them even if only for a few months over winter can be really beneficial for long term hoof health, something that's kind of gone out of fashion recently with horses working all year which is a shame.

Why does it seem there are negative conotations associated with owners who shoe their horses these days?

I've not really noticed a negative thing about it. Think in the UK at the moment barefoot is starting to take off and people are more aware of the harm bad farriery can do and that there is an alternative, but haven't come across much in the way of being negative about shoes where they are needed (though may admit to :rolleyes: at people who think their horse needs shoes because it might see 5 meters of tarmac once a year, or go on a 10 mile hack the day the shoes are removed and then declare that barefoot doesn't work). It's the cr*p farriers and the owners that think it's time for a new set when the old ones drop off after a few months that need some negativity aimed at them not the ones that shoe sensibly :)

[chev]

I hadn't noticed much negativity either. My trimmer has actually gone as far as to recommend a farrier locally that he believes shoes sympathetically should any of mine end up shod after all.

[tasha]

Must admit, I'd picked up a negative vibe on the various barefoot/shoeing etc threads on here. Nothing nasty, just a vibe.

[Yann]

Can't say I have. I wouldn't dream of criticising anyone for shoeing their horse since it's something I'm quite prepared to do again myself if I need to. If there have been any negative vibes then they've been directed towards farriers who do a poor job or owners who wait till the shoes are falling off before they have them replaced to save money, no one else:)

[Greentchr]

I would like to try the barefoot method, but in my area it is not practical- very,very rocky. When I spoke with my favorite farrier about it, he reminded me that if horses lived wild in this area, they would be choosing their own path, not going where I want to go, and some places they would avoid all together. Several people in my area tried barefoot for a year, and all have gone back to shoes. It could be different if there were some actual trained barefoot farriers, but I doubt it just because of the area we ride in. Of course, we are just pleasure riders, not competing in any discipline so it may not apply to your question.

I think there are people who would like to go barefoot but cannot for a multitude of different reasons, even if they are only valid to their own situation.

[Bay Mare]

Why does it seem there are negative conotations associated with owners who shoe their horses these days?

I think that there is more negativity in general to people who choose the barefoot path. If you're barefoot and treeless then you're the spawn of Satan and will surely rot in hell :D I won't even venture onto the barefoot, treeless, bitless AND unrugged :D

I haven't noticed much negativity on here towards shod horses. I know that some (whistles quietly while looking around hoping to avoid the pointy finger) of us can be fairly opinionated in trying to get points across but I don't think that anyone has been negative to anyone but poor farriers.

I think that it's good to discuss the pros and cons of different methods. That's how I came to go barefoot, because I saw different sides to things. I'd been 'brought up' that horses had shoes on and didn't think any differently until I saw that there were other options.

[Scarlett 001]

I know that some (whistles quietly while looking around hoping to avoid the pointy finger) of us can be fairly opinionated in trying to get points across

:p :) (good sense of humour there BayMare!) I think you hit the nail on the thread and that is why people say they sensed the negativity. Most people who shoe don't start threads about it, as it is pretty standard and accepted - not much to get excited about. But some (or many) people who have gone barefoot sure are excited about it - it is newer, different and they are amazed at the successes - and hence have strong feelings.

At my barn, there is a mixture of barefoot and shoed horses. I wonder if this is more the case in North America than your side of the pond? Many horses at my barn have shoes, but there are plenty of shoeless quarter horses and even some others.

[MelanieD]

But some (or many) people who have gone barefoot sure are excited about it - it is newer, different and they are amazed at the successes - and hence have strong feelings

A lot of the people who tried barefoot early on did it as a last resort with a lame horse or a horse with really poor feet, often had been told their horse would never be sound without special shoes or even sound at all. So not surprising that those people are very impressed with barefooting. Though you can get some pretty impressive changes even in hooves that seemed okay in shoes.

At my barn, there is a mixture of barefoot and shoed horses. I wonder if this is more the case in North America than your side of the pond? Many horses at my barn have shoes, but there are plenty of shoeless quarter horses and even some others.

The yard I was at most recently was like that, most horses didn't have shoes and were only shod if they really needed them, though majority were more just not shod rather than barefoot. Some owners and farriers over here have developed a tendancy to shoe everything that does any work and not give the hooves a break from shoes at all so for those people working barefoot is a bit of a novelty. We also have a lot of farriers over here doing a 'pasture trim' for unshod horses which can be a bit useless and at worst actually does some harm by overtrimming sole (though there are some farriers that are very good at trimming as well), so compared to that a barefoot trim appears to be something really good and different.