Help, please...

[pattir7]

Hi everyone,

On Monday, I had quite the fall from my bolting horse (see, I fell off too post). I rode again in lesson on Wednesday and sadly, it wasn't a one time occurence...but we did find out under what circumstances he is trying to 'take off' with me. It is when other horses are working in the arena... not lungeing..but riding. When he gets behind them, he'll try to take off with me.:( I am not the best rider in the world... I'm ok...but being on a locomotive without any brakes is frightening to me. I've had him about 3 months now...and this is 'new' behaviour. I'm thinking he's 'testing' me??? But it is scary for me.

On Wednesday, he didn't full out bolt with me... and since he wasn't going so fast, I was able to take his outside rein up near his bit and haul his head back to my knee in the corner and got him stopped. He did a buck in the process...but at that point was nearly stopped. I yelled at him and cracked him good for that.... and made him stand like that for a bit to think about it. We then walked on and resumed work. Before too long he tried it again... evaded me in one corner (I didn't have enough rein), but by the second corner, I had his nose at my knee again and stopped. Yelled again at him, made him stand there a bit, then walked on and resumed work. He 'thought' about it again, but did comply when I asked for a circle away from the horse in front of him... and I did praise him for it. We ended on a good note.... but I don't think this is over...and I'm terrified if he actually picks up speed before I can get him stopped next time.

What can be done to break him of this? I honestly don't know why he is doing this... this is new behaviour... and while I 'succeeded' this last time, I'm afraid of the next. If I have my trainer ride him, can she break him of this? Or is this a challenge for me only? If he is challenging me, any ideas on if/when he'll decide it's not worth the effort...that is IF I manage to deter him??

[Peace]

I just went and read your other post - I'm sorry you're having this kind of trouble. I imagine it must be very frightening.

Have you had his teeth done yet? It's amazing what teeth can make a horse do - one of our trusted schoolmares reared straight up as one of the students went to take off her bridle and accidentally banged what turned out to be a bad tooth. How old is your horse, BTW? Quanah, my young gelding, got really out of control when he cut his canine teeth at around five.

Another thing I'd do is have his saddle fit checked, by a saddle-fitter if possible. I'm convinced badly fitting tack is responsible for about 80% of behavior problems - and so few people at least in my part of the country know how to fit a saddle.

Have you changed his bit recently? Quanah tried to bite my toes off for putting him in a Tom Thumb. Honestly.

Since it's a sudden change in behavior I'd look at pain issues first. If you still have problems after that, then yes, I think having your trainer work through this with him first is a good idea. Then she can teach you how to deal with it.

Good luck.:)

[Wally]

Hmm, it the 3 month wait, just to make sure the cheque really has cleared! They do go through a phase of testing you to see where they lie in the herd.

Echo what peace says, do a bit more ground work, it is underestimated, it is a great way to bond and get the pecking order sorted. Once you have an established herd leader hat on the ground, he will be far more willing to play ball with you when you are up top.

[NoviceNic]

Could it be the way you are riding him. I dont want you to think I am being rude. If I can explain my situation. I ride very tense therefore my horse picks up on this as fear and then runs to the nearest horse for security. If my RI rode him he would never do this. Has your RI rode him?? See if he does it with them or just you?? This may mean it is the way you ride. I would agree with the rest about getting his teeth, back, saddle etc checked. We have a mare who started running through and found out she had rolled and twisted her back in the process. Hence she runs away from the wight on her back..

[pattir7]

Thank you for the advice everyone.. We are going to check into pain issues tomorrow.. can't get the dentist out for a couple of weeks. I managed to stop the turning in to me while lunging with just a simple side rein on the outer side. What a difference. Instantly a better experience for both of us.. he got much more 'complacent' after that...and I didn't have to get in his face at all. A much more relaxed horse. Something to be said for simple tools.

I really don't think it is a pain/teeth issue.. or even my riding (which is NOT perfect by ANY stretch of the imagination). But I really do want to make sure he is not hurting or that I've been working him too hard. He is quite the friendly guy... today I went and 'hung out' in his paddock with him for a little (he is alone at the moment). He will follow me everywhere. But for some reason, when I'm asking him to work, he gets a whole nother attitude.

If he is not in any pain and it is just a behavioural thing (a challenge), we're just going to take things slow... more ground work and maybe only walking for a short time afterwards. He is so calm (even lazy) when I ride him alone in the arena...but get another horse in there and it's like it's a race...

Yes, he did try it with my trainer... but he didn't get very far with her...which is also why I don't think it's my riding.... but I am not as skilled a rider as she is.... It still puzzles me that for about 2 months, I had THE most perfect horse.... did everything I asked, without question, never misbehaved... even gave pony rides to our two daughters. Now, I don't trust him in the same arena with them (my oldest also rides lesson horses). I just hope that horse is still in there and that I find him again....soon....

[Bay Mare]

Don't underestimate the teeth/physical issue. Saff was very sensitive when I first got her. She had problems accepting a contact so I got her teeth checked (and her back, she was in a treeless saddle so that, thankfully wasn't an issue) even though they'd been done 3 months earlier.

The EDT said that under normal circumstances he wouldn't have rasped them but that he could feel a bit of 'beginnings of' sharpness so took that off, it was 'normal' 3 month 'sharpness' for a horse on hard feed. She was a bit better after that though thankfully the same issue hasn't arisen since she's been on forage feed. Her teeth are 'wearing' much better now.

Have you had the tack checked as well? Saddle, bridle and bit?

DO consider your own riding and state of mind while you're riding. I know that none of us like to think that we are causing the problems but it's always worth seriously considering that we may not be as balanced as we could be or are giving conflicting signals.

The other thing is that you are getting angry or annoyed with him and yelling. He will be picking up on this which possibly won't be helping your situation.

Whilst the one rein stop and disengaging the hind legs is useful for these situations it is an emergency measure and shouldn't be used or need to be used several times in a session. By it's very nature it will be uncomfortable for the horse which in itself can cause problems if used fairly frequently. I'm sorry to sound harsh but 'hauling' his head several times in a session says that you need to find a different way of dealing with this because you'll end up with other issues to contend with.

Groundwork and schooling are going to be part of the 'key'. I would also recommend getting someone in who is sympathetic to 'problem' horses. Not someone who will try to 'break' them of the problem but someone who will try and find out the root cause and work from there.

Good luck and I would advise you to read the Mark Rashid books and also the Kelly Marks Perfect Manners and Perfect Partners. They will give you a lot of perspective and show you a different way of looking at things. Another excellent book is Whispering Back.

[Dummer&Drummer]

also could just quite simply that he is feeling good after the winter

[pattir7]

Don't underestimate the teeth/physical issue. Saff was very sensitive when I first got her. She had problems accepting a contact so I got her teeth checked (and her back, she was in a treeless saddle so that, thankfully wasn't an issue) even though they'd been done 3 months earlier.


Well, I had a doc out today. It's not a physical issue (didn't think it was). His teeth will be done ASAP and they do need it. It just doesn't explain why he only 'takes off with me' when he is working with other horses (trying to catch them).


Have you had the tack checked as well? Saddle, bridle and bit?


Yes, the saddle, bridle, and bit are fine. I'm actually riding him in a 'friendlier' bit than he has had.. a french eggbutt snaffle. He used to have a driving bit with a curb in it. Forgive me, I don't know all the various bits out there... but according to my trainer, his previous bit had more 'stop' in it.


DO consider your own riding and state of mind while you're riding. I know that none of us like to think that we are causing the problems but it's always worth seriously considering that we may not be as balanced as we could be or are giving conflicting signals.


I do consider my own riding....but this is new behaviour for him. When he started to speed up (before he took off), I asked him to stop the same way I always do.. sat back, closed my hips, slightly more contact in the reins (but no hard pulling). It went unheeded. He got behind the bit, grabbed it, threw his neck in my face, and took off. Don't think I 'asked' for that...


The other thing is that you are getting angry or annoyed with him and yelling. He will be picking up on this which possibly won't be helping your situation.

Whilst the one rein stop and disengaging the hind legs is useful for these situations it is an emergency measure and shouldn't be used or need to be used several times in a session. By it's very nature it will be uncomfortable for the horse which in itself can cause problems if used fairly frequently. I'm sorry to sound harsh but 'hauling' his head several times in a session says that you need to find a different way of dealing with this because you'll end up with other issues to contend with.

Believe me, I don't want to get into the habit of using the one rein stop...you must realize though that both times he tried it in my last lesson were very dangerous situations...for myself and the person on the other horse in the arena. I must think of my own safety...me not surviving is a much bigger 'issue'. I had no other choice. I can't have him run off with me... just can't. My anger and yelling at him were shortlived... when he finally DID listen to me and make the turn (as opposed to taking off after the other horse), he got tons of praise. Believe me, I don't enjoy yelling and getting angry with him.


Groundwork and schooling are going to be part of the 'key'. I would also recommend getting someone in who is sympathetic to 'problem' horses. Not someone who will try to 'break' them of the problem but someone who will try and find out the root cause and work from there.

Good luck and I would advise you to read the Mark Rashid books and also the Kelly Marks Perfect Manners and Perfect Partners. They will give you a lot of perspective and show you a different way of looking at things. Another excellent book is Whispering Back.

Thank you for the advice and book suggestions. I don't remember if I mentioned this...but I've had him about two months. My present theory for his behaviour is that the shock of moving has worn off and he is 'asserting' himself. I don't think he is a 'problem' horse... I think he's just testing the water right now which is normal. I have a good trainer...she says I have to 'fix it' in the saddle (by getting my way, I assume). The key for me is 're-asserting' myself correctly and without getting myself killed. It is extremely frightening for me if he 'takes off' with me.

We do groundwork too. He is impeccably well mannered on the ground. We are doing better in lungeing with the simple addition of a side rein to keep him from turning his head/neck into me....but I'm not really getting good work out of him... I get walk, trot, canter... but at the most minimal effort from him. After lungeing, I can let him 'go' and he will still follow me all over the arena without a lead. I *think* he likes me....but I don't think he has much respect for me... :( I think THAT is the crux of our problem right now... Just my non expert opinion...

[Peace]

I'm actually riding him in a 'friendlier' bit than he has had.. a french eggbutt snaffle. He used to have a driving bit with a curb in it. Forgive me, I don't know all the various bits out there... but according to my trainer, his previous bit had more 'stop' in it.

OK, my suggestion is probably going to be pretty unpopular - but if I were you, I'd go back to a curb bit. You don't have to keep him in it forever - just until you and your trainer can get this issue sorted out.

If the bit he was in before is unsuitable, maybe you could use another kind of curb - a pelham or kimberwick, or if you're riding western, maybe an argentine "snaffle."

Also, and I'm sure your RI is in a better position to advise you than I am, but are you able to sense when he's about to bolt off with you? If so, can you distract him by turning or playing with the reins or just anything that might interrupt him before he gets going?

[Kanuma]

to be honest id still get those teeth done. some horses are incredibly sensitive about teeth and backs.
Stan never rears but his saddle had lumpy flocking and he started rearing. He has just started mucking around in his mouth as well now so we checked them and could feel a couple of sharp edges but nothing major. weve got the dentist up soon as well.
Rian bolted on my sister because of teeth problems, he broke her wrist because when she asked him to come back from a canter his bit hit something sensitive and he just took off. turned out he had abcesses but they couldnt be seen till this happened, we got it all sorted out and now instead of a dutch gag to control him he only needs a hanging cheek snaffle.

he may be testing his limits, but i realy would get his teeth done by a dentist not a vet as our vet missed rians teeth problems

[pattir7]

OK, my suggestion is probably going to be pretty unpopular - but if I were you, I'd go back to a curb bit. You don't have to keep him in it forever - just until you and your trainer can get this issue sorted out.

If the bit he was in before is unsuitable, maybe you could use another kind of curb - a pelham or kimberwick, or if you're riding western, maybe an argentine "snaffle."

Also, and I'm sure your RI is in a better position to advise you than I am, but are you able to sense when he's about to bolt off with you? If so, can you distract him by turning or playing with the reins or just anything that might interrupt him before he gets going?

Well, I don't think I'll go back to a curb bit just yet.....at least not until his teeth are done. I wish I could get the dentist out sooner...but the soonest I can get her is in another week...

That is exactly how I am riding right now....and so far, I can sense when he is 'off the aids'. It seems to be that he evades me only going in one direction...so maybe it is his teeth?? If he evades me going that direction, I circle him (tightly) in the other...and then try the other direction again. So far, that is working....and the one rein stop has stopped him in other times when he does try to take off with me...

If it really isn't his teeth and he's just challenging me since we've only been together a few months, I'm not sure what to do such that he decides it's not worth the effort that doesn't include the taking off with me... cause right now, that still terrorizes me... and I bet he knows it.

[Guest]

I think I'd go back to the old bit, chances are he was in it for a reason.

My perfect little pony has in the last week turned a bit sour, I think she's had 7 weeks of settling now she's got the measure of me and I've been tugging on her mouth a bit so she's retaliating.

I bought Bryony for her manners and the testimants from a few old owners back up the fact that the problem must lie with me.
Soldier on and try not to worry about him taking off, both Grady and Bry were/are far more interested in the other horse in the ring than the work they have to do. Once Grady tried to follow and I wouldn't let him a complete paddy broke out.

[pattir7]

Thanks for all the advice!

I may end up going back to his old bit... but the people I bought him from only drove with him...they do not ride at ALL... and know NOTHING about bits. Someone suggested the bit they used once and they just used it....so I don't want to make the assumption that he was using that bit because it was required. It very well *may* be now...but I do want to rule out other possibilities first before I put something harder in his mouth....

I'm hoping getting his teeth done along with a few 'corrections' for playing 'follow the leader' will bring back the steady, trustworthy horse we bought... I hope...

[Kanuma]

one thing is he may be unhappy with the mouth piece or action of the new bit. Alot of horses hate single jointed bits, so if you have him in an ordinary snaffle, try a french link snaffle

[pattir7]

That's what I have... a french link eggbutt snaffle....

[Sooty]

You mentioned that your horse is being kept in a paddock alone .... perhaps he's just excited about being around another horse? It would tie up with him not misbehaving when you're alone in the school...

Ideally your horse needs another horsey companion. Alternatively an animal of a different species can help if there is no other option (such as a sheep). If this is just not possible (and horses are herd animals so it is pretty important that they do have company) perhaps you could work in-hand in the school whilst other horses are present. This may help him overcome the novelty of being close to another horse?

[amandal]

Sorry to hear of your problems, my mare always rushes when she's in the school with other horses, constant transitioning and circling and working in different directions helps her to concentrate on me rather than on getting behind the other horse as soon as possible. Good luck with it.

[Peace]

Following on from Kanuma's comment, a curb bit will not be harsher in his mouth. Curb bits work by exerting pressure on the horse's poll. So he may be happier with that action than that of a snaffle.

If he was in a driving bit, I'm guessing it was a liverpool? I think a kimberwick (or kimblewick, as y'all say;) ) would be close?

[pattir7]

It is quite possible he is lonely... I've thought about that too. He did have another horse in there until about the time this started happening...but his 'pal' went home.. The owner of the stable is going to be moving around some other horses to try to find him some new 'friends' but she couldn't do it this last week cause she had a very sick foal and couldn't watch how the horses got along like she wanted to. The foal has since died... :( so I imagine she will be moving horses around fairly soon to try to find him some new 'pals'. I do feel bad for him alone right now.... he can visit over the fence with other horses, but it's not the same. He needs some company...

Gosh, I just wish he could tell me why.... sure would be simpler than all this guessing. We're certainly not 'past' this yet... I rode him in lesson last night and he's still trying to get close to other horses... I did manage to deter him a little easier (didn't need the one rein stop) but I was extremely cautious... I hope we get past this and back to the trustworthy guy we had a month ago.... it's not as fun to ride when I'm having to worry about him running off with me...