Stopping avoidance backing

[Greentchr]

My son's 14 (or 20 according to vet) yo arab mare has a bad habit of backing when she is trying to avoid what she is asked to do. Mainly when she wants to go home. She does not do it in the arena during lessons (we trailer to lessons), but when we are out on the road or trails, she backs several times at the beginning, and then whenever she is uncomfortable or wants to turn around. It is really dangerous at times, as we live in the mountains, and backing over a cliff is a real danger.

My son (13yo, has ridden for 1 year) just urges her forward, but is getting pretty spooked about it himself. For the first time, he wanted to quit a ride and we need to deal with this before it gets him soured.

Would you use a riding crop? I have not wanted to have him turn her the way she wants to go, but sometimes we have to so as to be sure she does not back over the edge.
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c212/greentchr/JosephandNeekaontheedge.jpg Here in this picture, it is not too steep, but if they went over the edge it could be pretty bad. I think that he should be looking the way he wants to go here rather than over the side, but he was pretty nervous about the edge.

The horse is pretty good other than that. He has been doing ground work with her, she is easy to catch, easy to tack-up, has good paces and is learning some good habits. She has only really spooked once in the year we have had her, and that was rider fault more than anything else. She does not de-sensitize to quickly, but does after a good effort. She is bottom of the totem-pole in the yard (3 horses) and has not really bonded with my son, though she has been comming up to him lately which is new, and encouraging.

I hope this is enough information for some of you more experienced people to be able to help us with this. It is a real concern for us.
regards,

[julia gulia]

Hi Margo!!!! This is , believe it or not, a common problem with horses. They are so smart!!!!:D I guess your problem is, to put it in a nut shell, the fact that your son does not really have enough space in which to deal with your horse. If you were out on level terrain then I would suggest that when your horse wants to back, you would say "oh good, you want to back up???? great!!! Good idea!!! Let's back up a lot until you have the backing technique perfected. So, I have a couple of suggestions. One.... when this happens have your son stay calm, even though he will be dying to(human nature) look behind him to make sure he is safe, sit up straight,sink the heals, remember to breath slowly in and out so your horse can hear him breathe.loosen up on the reigns( this is important as his fear instincts will tell him to pull back on the reigns) and squeeze with his legs and then(if no response) kick and drive his horse forward with his seat. If his horse does not respond then, yes, I would have him tap her(gently to begin with) on the bottom to tell her/ him that he/ she must go forward. You have stated that his horse is accommodating in every other way so that is why I would encourage a tap with a crop. If his horse were the type to respond badly to being tapped in the butt with a crop then my advice would be different. His horse is just saying" I don't wanna do that!!!! and so far it has been working, yes???? So, your son has to say(by means of the proper 'aids'
uh, uh!!! I insist that you do this!!!!!!!
Like I said, this advice is based on the information you have presented.... that your son's horse is an accommodating fellow in all other respects!!!! Good luck!
I'm sure that others will have some brilliant suggestions for you too!!!
P.S. recent research has revealed that it is actually VERY hard to determine the age of a horse.Just looking at the teeth is no longer considered a good indication of a horses true age. Proper dental care, feed and overall daily care will have a big impact on how a horses teeth 'bear up' over the years!!!:D

[julia gulia]

P.S. From the picture you have posted I can see that your son is looking down the hill to where he thinks he will end up!!!!! L.O.L. I know this is hard but....He must look straight ahead to where he wants his horse to go.If he wants his horse to go forward then he MUST point his head and thus his eyes that way.Our horses can tell exactly where we are looking.They can feel it...... so if your son looks down the hill????? Then down the hill they both will go!!!!!!!....And if they reach the bottom???????? The horse will say( in horsey language of course) Well, I thought that was where you wanted me to take you .... That's where you were looking!!!!!!!:eek:
He'd sorta be right l.o.l.;)

[julia gulia]

Gosh, I must have an attention deficit disorder 'cos I just wanted to add another thought to the equation. In a way, your son's horse has been trained to do this because when she does she gets to go home!!!!! Like I said, horses are smart;) So you just have to retrain her!!!! Hey, if she is at the bottom of the totem pole in the field then surely she can be on the board of directors when she is with the humans??????
Ok. I really am done now l.o.l. Really!!!!!! I am!!!!! I'm going to bed!!! Really????? I am!!!! L.O.L.
:p

[joosie]

You are totally mad, my dear :D :D

[julia gulia]

L.O.L. L.O.L. L.O.L. I am indeed!!!!!:eek:

[julia gulia]

Gosh Joosie... have you already gone to bed and are up already??????
I wish I had sausages!!! Please don't tell me you will be having sausages for breakfast!!!!
I need to go home to have some sausages!!!!!:D

[joosie]

No, I haven't been to bed, I've been up all night working on a research project. I must be mad too! :D But it's the final lot of assessment for my degree so it needs to be done! No I'm not having sausages for breakfast, I'm more of a museli girl, but at my local butchers you can pick a meat and a veg/herb/other ingredients and they will make the sausages for you right there and then!

[MelanieD]

Assuming you've already checked she doesn't have a pain/discomfort reason for doing this I know a couple of good ways of dealing with this, which works depends on the horse.

Carry a schooling whip, ask for forwards as soon as she starts backing then one sharp smack with it if backwards happened. Schooling whips make a swishy noise and sting without doing any real harm and will often shock the horse into going forwards the first time, after a couple of times showing the whip or smacking a boot may be enough. Need to be ready for possibly getting more forwards than you really wanted but accept any forwards as good to start with. Doesn't work on every horse and a few get more determined after a smack so don't keep going with it too much if it doesn't work.

Other approach, bit more difficult on those hills, is to make her go backwards in the direction you want to go until she's begging to go forwards.

Normally in that situation I'd go for one stingy smack with a schooling whip and if it doesn't work immediately start backing up the way I want to go. If all else fails get off and lead her the way you want to go, it's safe and she isn't getting away with going back home.

Improving trust etc between them will probably help matters a lot as well but can't just put up with dangerous behaviour like that while you wait for her to trust him enough not to do it, plus there may well be an element of doing it because she can once she's got away with it a couple of times.

[No_Angel]

my horse amber does this and rears when she doesnt want to do something, maddie does it aswell sometimes.
i cant use a whip (bucks, and i dont think they should be smacked with it anyway unless there is an immidiate need to move) i usually circle them in a tight circle, have a loose contact, but enough to pick it back up again if i need it, then push them forwards with my legs and seat, mostly kicking a bit if they are sluggish, then when they have walked forward nicely a few steps praise them and carry on walking.
this has worked for me, im not too good at explaining myself, but im sure this is what i do:p (might have forgotton a few things:o )

[Ross]

I would just add to this, don't pull the horse's head round to the inside. Although it's the natural thing to do, it is actually making it easier for the horse to 'fall out' through the outside shoulder and avoid the rider. As already said, he needs to stay straight, body, head, hands and legs - his position in that photo is all saying "go right".

I had a horse that backed, and carried a schooling whip - as soon as he started he got a sharp swipe on the backside. Is there anywher flatter wher you could hack and let the horse back itself into things? I found a bridleway with hawthorn hedges either side, and it made a world of difference...

Ross

[Tarlor]

I rode a pinto mare that did the same thing. I eventually got so sick of it that the next time she did it, I spun her around and made her walk the trail backwards. She eventually got the hint that she was going out whether the tail or head was out front.

[lisae]

This may not be a popular response but if either of my 14 yr old sons were interested in riding, I would try to keep them from getting soured at all costs; I would leave the Arab mare for arena work and find myself a rock solid "been there done that on the mountain trails" experienced trail horse. But that's just me....I know if you are not in a position to acquire another steed you need to work this out with your current horse. In which case the last fews posts are good ideas!

[lisae]

And I'd invest in a body protector just because of your terrain. You can buy dirt bike/motorcycle BPs cheaper than equestrian ones!

[HairyCob]

Margo, that photo could be of my Arab X mare Dolly a couple of weeks ago... apart from the stunning scenery and western tack that is!

She learnt that if she backed up towards ditches (not quite the same leauge as your cliffs, but still unnerving!) that I would eventually give up, get off and lead her- then if she still played up being led, she learnt that she got to go home.

When I got fed up with this and started really trying to get her to go forwards using voice, seat and leg aids... she started rearing.

So... my friend (who isn't as scared of falling off as me!) got on her, took her the route where she always did this, carrying a whip.

Dolly stopped and started backing up, as predicted, and my friend loosened the reins (to avoid rearing), gave her a sharp nudge in the ribs, which had no effect and then a short sharp slap on the shoulder with the whip. Dolly immediately went forward, and didn't try it on again for my friend.

Incensed that she could be so good for my friend, and had been so bad for me, I then got on her and rode her - with a completely different attitude (as in 'You aren't going to mess for me when you didn't for her!'), and carrying a whip.

Since that day I can honestly say I have 'tapped' her on the shoulder with the whip twice... both times when she started looking around and slowing up- her signs that she was about to back up- both times she went immediately forward and she hasn't needed the whip since.

I've taken her places she's never been before and on much longer rides than she's used to, both on her own and in company... no problems at all.

So... I suggest using a whip, not hard, just as a reminder that THE RIDER decides the direction- if your son isn't confident enough to do it, is there someone else who could ride her and 'show' your son- if he's anything like me if he sees someone else getting her to go forward and 'be good' he'll want to do it himself:)

[Wally]

Heather Moffett had a horse who used to rear to avoid doing things, he was so bad he was about to be PTS because of it. Urge him on and he'd just go up and over. he went on to carry her side saddle and won many ribbons, and you NEVER ride a rearer side saddle!

What you need to do it set aside a long time, a whole day if neccessary, no time restraints. Ask once, if she backs up , stop urging on, she must not be allowed to turn around, keep her facing the same way, but let her stand still, if she walk on of her own accord (which they do sooner or later through bordem) reward her with sugar or some real treat.

get her to associate walking forward with good vibes and good associations. A stick is not the answer, you'll only have to do it for a short while, you might findyouself standing still for an hour to start with, but if you do find yourself only taking a step in the direction you wanted at least it was a step forwards and you can go home, BUT ONLY when you have a syep in the direction you want and it was given freely.

[Bronya]

I too would carry a whip, but also remember that when backing up, you can make your horse go in the direction YOU want, and keep them backing that way. Both my girls play this game when they don't want to do work, and I just make them back and back and back, until they're sick of it. Get him to practice making his horse back at home, and learning how to steer her one way or the other when going backwards. The other option is to get off and lead. "NOOOOO!" I hear lots of people say, but as I have discovered, it's not losing the battle if you can then make the horse go on, in the direction you want to go, then get on and continue the ride. Eventually the horse learns that it doesn't matter what they do, they'll have to go forwards and carry on anyway. The best way is to turn them round and make them back in the RIGHT direction. Backing a horse from the ground is a very handy 'dominant' thing to do, which reinforces the fact that YOU are the leader in this situation!

[BNaturally]

You have already recieved some good advices.
Why not get the assistance of a trainer that could come out to your place and evaluate why this is happenning and make the proper recommendations.
This method of calling a trainer can be use as and when needed only.
I hope this helps.

[dotsanddashes]

What you need to do it set aside a long time, a whole day if neccessary, no time restraints. Ask once, if she backs up , stop urging on, she must not be allowed to turn around, keep her facing the same way, but let her stand still, if she walk on of her own accord (which they do sooner or later through bordem) reward her with sugar or some real treat.

get her to associate walking forward with good vibes and good associations. A stick is not the answer, you'll only have to do it for a short while, you might findyouself standing still for an hour to start with, but if you do find yourself only taking a step in the direction you wanted at least it was a step forwards and you can go home, BUT ONLY when you have a syep in the direction you want and it was given freely.

this works - have done it on a tb on a main road with lorrys and fast cars - stretched my nerve to the limit and then some - but horse stopped and hasn't (touch wood) done it since. Path of least resistance is the way you want to go - you don't argue the point, you just have more patience than her.

[Greentchr]

Thank you all for your wonderful help!!

We do have a new horse that is extremely steady (for my nervous nellie daughter), but this is my son's horse and the only one he wants to ride. She seems to be a good match for him in most ways, just a few little kinks to work out before she will be the best mount ever! We are willing to put in whatever time is needed with her to get her over this. A body protector is a good idea!

We went out Friday for a ride- prepared to put into practice the suggestions given here!

Silly horse did not try once to back up. Humph. and we were so prepared :) . Her problem that day was she wanted to canter! My son did a good job of controlling her speed (do all arabians like to run so much??), and was ready to deal with the backing by legs, seat (we practiced on a rolling chair on the rug to get the seat part working), and then reins instead of a whip (which we do not have yet) if necessary.

My son figured out on his own that if she will not go forward in the way he wants to go, he can back her up the trail and she quits pretty quick. I don't think she has actually 'won' at this backing thing, as we have been careful not to reinforce it by letting her get away with it, though she must be getting some reward or she would not keep trying! I think I will ride her next time and see what happens with a different rider. My son is fairly firm with her, but It might be in the timing that he is having problems- he does not anticipate her backing. I actually have not ridden her except once when we first got her. He has not had to get off at all, as she does end up going the right way when he enforces it- eventually. It is just the time she is backing that is scarey, so we have to get it to the point that she does not try that anymore. Fortunately she has never tried rearing, or given any indication that she might rear or buck.

Our RI went riding with us up here two weeks ago, but spent most of the time helping my daughter with her new horse, rather than my son. I will have her come up again and specifically work with him this time.

Thank you again for your advice- it has really helped give my son confidence to read the posts and realize that she is being naughty and needs to be taught differently. It gives him hope that this can be solved. Sometimes hearing from other people (other than mom) makes him try a little harder:)
regards,

[Aphrodite]

Hi.

Good on you for persevering. The only other suggestion I have is that you follow behind him on foot the first few times, with a lunge whip or similar.

If she tries to scoot back in a dangerous place then encourage her forward with the whip (not hitting her with it). Lots of reward should be given then for going forwards.

The main issue with your problem are the dangerous locations she's doing it in. When she goes back in a non dangerous location I think your son would be best to deal with it via any of the methods given previously on NR, as you can't be expected to walk behind him on every ride.

Good luck, keep us posted!:)

[palmerlover52]

beware the "if you want to back, fine, you can back up for miles" method... i tried that on a horse and we ended up backing up for a mile because horse and i are both stubborn beasties! it taught him a lesson though, so i'd just be prepared to persevere

[rockyrobin]

I had a pony that was a serial napper!! he was fine in company, but, used to spin around, go sideways, backwards & buck when made to go forwards. We too live in the mountains so had similar worries. Dont want to sound negative but his habit persisted & he never made any improvement. My 'expert' is of the opinion that nappy horses rarely break the habit completely, as napping is usually an ingrained habit.

[Greentchr]

I have wondered what 'napping' means! so, does it mean to back up? or does it mean to head home?

I rode her for the first time yesterday (she is my sons horse), and got to experience her 'arabian-ness'. She is a serious in-your-mouth horse when she wants to go home! She only tried the backing on me 2 or 3 times, and that was at the beginning because she did not want to leave my horse behind. All it took was to give her a firm whack on the rump with the reins along with firm leg aids, and she quit. After that she behaved very well- until we turned home and she wanted to get there fast:rolleyes: . We did a few head gives, turned a few times, and she settled down for the most part (at least enough I could get out of her mouth!).

I am going to have to ride other horses besides my own more! I have not even been on my daughters horse, though we have only had her for a couple of months.

Thank you all for your help. I was not scared at all when she started backing- because I had a plan to deal with it. It really is the things we do not understand that we are afraid of, isn't it?
regards,

[julia gulia]

Congratulations Margo!!!!! Well done!!! I'm soooo happy things have worked out so well!!!:D
Keep us updated ;)