Cair hell, advice appreciated!

[verdiki]

Hi there, Im having some saddle 'issues' which Im hoping to get some advice on.
I have a beautifull 4 yr old DWBxtrakhener, 17h who is just getting back into work after nearly a year recovering from a ligament strain. As I am only 5'2" and he is incredibly sharp I decided I wanted a deep seated, large knee blocked dressage saddle to give me the length of leg and security.
Previously I'd been riding him in a Jeffries falcon saddle but he was starting to get a little techy about walk to trot transitions and seemed less than pleased to see his tack each day. He was also noticably more cantankerous when ridden on consecutive days. I brought the jeffries second hand from a master saddler who fitted it to him and has been checking its fit on a 3 monthly basis.
As I needed more from my saddle I decided despite his age and changing shape we really needed to move onto a dressage saddle as quickly as possible. Having looked around, the wintec isabell seemed to fit the bill and made sense as adjustable. I thought paying the extra for cair would be worth while if it made him as comfortable as possible. A different master saddler ( other one wouldnt do wintec) came out and fitted him for an isabell which on day one seemed fine. By day three he was incredibly uncomfortable, kicking out with his back legs as soon as the girth was tightened and hollowing badly. He even wanted to roll! The cair panels are extreamly firm and I think are bruising him towards the cantle end. He has a good back though quite short in the loins and is very well sprung and athletic.
Has anyone else had this sort of problem with the isabell saddle or cair panels?
Typically, the saddler is now away on a weeks show trading so I cant get this resolved till next week. I feel irritated as have paid two seperate master saddlers to fit this horse and feel that his comfort and freedom of movement is still not there. I'm not sure whether the awnser would be to get flair fitted to the isabell or try a flocked version, would that guarentee a perfect fit for him or whether to look at other brands. I like the albion slk, some of the hennigs and jaguars but it seams silly to pay a fortune for a saddle for a horse whoose shape is going to change so radically over the next year. I wish there was a saddler who I could really trust who stocked all these brands and would allow trial periods to see if the saddle really suits the horse.
Any advise or details of anyones else experience with fitting very sensitive horses would be appreciated. I have a nasty suspicion that getting the perfect saddle for my boy is going to take some doing. Thanks in advance.

[drookitsheep]

If your horse hasn't had cair before, it may just be a reaction to that rather than being a fitting problem. I've never tried cair myself, but I have heard of some horses having quite strong reactions of dislike to it. Could you try the flair/flocked versions from the person you bought the cair one from? Surely they should be able to give you more of a range of options to test out?

I'd definitely have your horse's back & teeth checked before doing anything else though - if he was starting to get agitated with his "old" tack, it could be that there's something niggling, which is being made worse with the new saddle. Best to have that checked out as a precaution then at least you can rule that out.

I have a Wintec Isabell (flocked, synthetic) which I've not had any probs with - seems to fit my boy's "shark-fin" withers! :rolleyes:

[verdiki]

Hey, Thought it would make sense to try him in the flocked version. I too thought to get his back looked at but the back guy said it would just be bruising from the cair. (going to insist he comes out) Noticed your in Scotland, could I ask who you used to fit your saddle. My original was fitted by Stirlingshire saddlery and the isabell by the Grange saddlery, both supposedly know there stuff. Its the royal highland show this week which is why Ive no back up for now! His teeth were checked last month by David Brown BEVA/BVDA and I cant remember the name of his back man, John something or other. Supposedly very good if you can look past the dowsing rods and crystals! Thanks for the reply
Catherine

[poohsmate]

as a therapist i see quite a few horses who have suffered from bad backs due IMO to air system saddles.
The reason i say this is that as soon as they have been ridden in flocked well fitted saddles the problems have dissapeared.
a few years ago when the air sytem came out a lot of people had their saddles converted, but over the past couple of years we have changed alot of saddles back to flocking due to many people being finding there horses have developed problems.
IME i have seen some horrendous air filled saddles including one just recently that had been checked two weeks before my visit, i had a look and there seemed to be no air in the panels.
The owners had it checked by a (master Saddler) who upon opening the saddle up found that the air bags had been fitted the wrong way around and it was impossible to put any air in..
i have always wondered why there are two bags in each panel on some systems, with the seam between the two, smack in the middle of the panel where most of the riders weight is, i have found this area to be sore on horses backs.
it's a well known fact that pressure gauges are notoriously unreliable so how do you make sure you have same pressure in both panels, because as i see it
a difference of even a couple of PSI will make the saddle unlevel.
air expands when it gets hot, so presumably in the summer and after a 3 hour fun ride the pressure in the panels must be increased, maybe again giving you an unlevel saddle?.
when you sit in the saddle where does the air under your bum go, presumably to either end of the panel, increasing the pressure here.?
These are purely my thoughts on air filled panels, and i would be grateful to hear from anyone who can put my mind at ease re any of the points above
cheers
norman:)

[drookitsheep]

Have pm'd you

I just realised I didn't say about the "back man" - I can recommend someone if you need. I think I'd insist on someone coming out to have a look but I'm surprised that it was dismissed as bruising from the cair - did you mention to him about your horse being a little touchy with his old tack as well as with the new saddle? (sorry if that sounds obvious, but it's the kind of thing I'd forget!)

[Wally]

Poohsmate, are you in my little head , reading my little mind? (not a long read)

The more you compress air the harder it gets, Shock load air and it is hard as rock. The only thing I can see from air bags is you won't get lumps......not in the same place every time anyway.
The saddle verdiki describes is the Heather Moffett St.Merryn. Long flaps, big block, lots of serge panel, not so much as "deep" but incredibly secure seat. If your budged really, really cannot stretch to a St.Merryn, then the Saddle company do a really good range of serge lined saddles. Really good for sensetive types. The Verona dressage is a very nice saddle and we have a few of them. hasn't got a huge block, but I expect Dave would do small bespoke changes for a small extra charge. They are generally very accomodating and humour us sensetive, picky riders! :D :D

I know I have been very impressed with their service and I know Mossy bends their ear on a regular basis, having had a saddle phobic horse, she takes no more chances with her mare, who seems to be very happy in her Saddle Co. saddle.

[Ginger Thing]

I was with my friend (qualified equine sports massage therapist who works with an osteopath) when she treated a pony who had started refusing jumps and generally behaving badly. Her back was extremely sore, and when the owner brought the saddle out, it was pumped so full of air it was like putting bricks on the pony and sitting on them! And as she worked and got hot, it would have got even worse as the air expanded.

Their practice also sees a lot of back problems due to these saddles. They sound like a good idea when you hear about them, but when you actually think about it, the volume of air must change due to temperature, so the saddle will fit well at times, but not at others.

[Lgd]

CAIR is not adjustable - my older mare bronco's if you put one on her, yet she has a WOW saddle (which has the Flair system) and goes really well in it.

Any badly fitted saddle will cause problems and that goes for Flaired saddles. Flair will not make a badly fitting saddle fit. I had an Isabell on my younger mare, it was fine until she muscled up heavily and it was just the wrong shape - it was a wool flocked one. The older mare who broncs with CAIR is fairly reluctant even with the wool-flocked Wintecs as the points are just too long for her conformation (big wide barrel + TB withers).

I'm interested to note that poohsmate has seen problems with the air flocking - was this just flaired conventional saddles, CAIR or WOW - or all? I would find it odd with the WOW as the lady who massages my bunch actually noted that the girls were better in their backs - much less tension building up, and I certainly find them much looser to ride.

The bag overlap is not a problem - there is padding between bags and horse. The air pressure evens out anyway. Yes, air compresses when sat on, but it is mobile and because it is not fixed in the Flair/WOW it can move with the horse. (It doesn't with CAIR). The whole idea is that the system can be adjusted to the horse's assymmetry - this means that it needs to be checked regularly (I can adjust my own) which folk tend to neglect with any saddle, never mind a less conventional approach like flair.

IME there are also quite a few saddlers who fit flair badly, which does not help the situation.

[poohsmate]

[quote]I'm interested to note that poohsmate has seen problems with the air flocking - was this just flaired conventional saddles, CAIR or WOW - or all? I would find it odd with the WOW as the lady who massages my bunch actually noted that the girls were better in their backs - much less tension building up, and I certainly find them much looser to ride.

The bag overlap is not a problem - there is padding between bags and horse. The air pressure evens out anyway.[quote]

up to now the problem saddles had either flair or cair.systems, i have no experience with wow as yet.

i can't quite see how the pressure evens out where the bags join, because you have a seam here with no air in.
so you cannot have the same pressure all through the panel. the very nature that you have a seam will give uneven pressure at this point.
and this in particular is where most problems occur. in fact when you look down the gullet you can see where the bags meet and the panel tends to be banana shaped.
norman

[Unbridled]

Urgh, I hate CAIR, although I love Wintec saddles. When I was shopping for my Wintec 2000 my former instructor, who boards at my yard, kept pushing for me to buy one with CAIR. She has an Isabel with CAIR and swears that it's the latest and greatest. But I just don't like how hard they feel...there's no "give" like in a flocked saddle.

Plus I read a post on a message board (I think this one) about someone riding in a CAIR saddle and one of the air panels burst. :eek:

[Lgd]

[quote]
i can't quite see how the pressure evens out where the bags join, because you have a seam here with no air in.


No seam in the bags on the WOW and were certainly none in the Korrector pad I used to use.

[Emz]

I have a flocked wintec pro and YO has a flocked Wintec Isabelle in the recommendation of our saddler. Gives you more scope to adjust it to fit your horse properly with flocking.

[Cochise]

I'm a wintec girl. About four years ago, my saddle fitter looked at my horse's back and said that CAIR wasn't right for his back. So I went for flocked. I bought a dressage saddle (500) that is flocked last year.
Although the idea in principle is interesting (air panels), I do like flocked, and it is up to the individual horse and rider.

[poohsmate]

[QUOTE=poohsmate]

No seam in the bags on the WOW and were certainly none in the Korrector pad I used to use.

sorry lgd.:(
i was still on the other ones!!!:D

[Lgd]

[QUOTE=Lgd]

sorry lgd.:(
i was still on the other ones!!!:D
Ah! Makes sense now. I have seen a lot of problems with CAIR saddles although I only ever experienced the bronco session - one good thing about having a horse who is a bit 'Princess and the Pea-ish', Peri lets you know sharp if she doesn't like - she is so fussy :rolleyes: only likes Impakt pads under the saddle, only likes either my Kieffer humane girth or soft neoprene ones (hates the wintec/Thorowgood ones). Even disliked the nice Elevator bridle I bought her to be 'kind' to her, totally dislikes treeless saddles as well, having stood vertical in an ansur and goes very shuffly/and reluctant in the Fhoenix.

[OneStepCloser]

Check out http://www.wowsaddles.com It has some good images showing how the WOW/Flair saddles work. Richard Davison uses WOW saddles to train and compete his horses and swears by them.