Don't quite know how to cope with Quanah - advice please

[Peace]

He's starting rearing - the straight-up vertical kind - again.:eek: I can tell that, in her heart of hearts, my RI/YO thinks he'll always be too much for me and I should just sell him.:(

Brief history for newer members: When I was a forty year old terrified novice, I bought Quanah, a recently-gelded green three year old. Yeah, I know.:rolleyes: Turned Quanah away till he was five, when the RI/YO's daughter began working with him. She's turned out to be a really gifted trainer, and after some spectacular initial battles (involving rearing, bucking, etc) Quanah began to really enjoy his work with her. She's taught him a great deal - he's discovered an aptitude for h/j and does well at local shows, and he hacks out alone and in company. Quanah is now seven. Meanwhile, I bought an old confidence-giver and have become a reasonably happy hacker. I'd begun having lessons on Quanah in the school, which were going well until early last spring, when Quanah cut his leg on some loose wire and had to take time off.

Trainer has been bringing Quanah back into work before I get on him again. Last night, RI tells me Quanah's been going vertical again - but upon closer inspection they found a piece of barbed wire in his tail.:eek: No, there is no barbed wire at my stable, but there are scraps around on the trails from the nearby farms. And if there's a way to get into something he shouldn't, Quanah will find it. So I say, well, small wonder he reared. "But that doesn't explain all the other times," replies my RI.:(

I should explain I am still not a confident rider. Quanah's never done anything to scare me, which I attribute to a combination of him having some consideration for his timid old mother and the fact that I won't push him very hard.

I've been suspecting saddle fit issues since he came back into work a month or so ago. Having no luck with treed saddles, I ordered a Trekker since Quanah's fairly flat-backed with not much wither. It arrived this week but I haven't tried it out yet.

RI says his behavior is due to having had too much time off and the cure is to keep working him. Around here, people don't really believe in saddle fit issues.

I'm getting my farm ready to bring both horses home in the fall, so the plan was for Quanah and me to have lots of lessons together between now and then to prepare for the day we'll be going solo. (I live in a remote rural area and OH doesn't do horses.) But I can tell my RI is now terrified at the thought of Quanah and I alone together. And TBH, so am I, at this point.:o

I love this little horse and absolutely can't imagine selling him. If I'm right about the source of his problem then I reckon I should let him have a little time off to get over the soreness and then start riding him myself, gently at first, in the treeless to see how he likes it. However, if they're right and he's just overly fresh and full of himself, my plan will be exactly the wrong thing to do. I've worked hard to build up my confidence and I don't want it destroyed. OTOH, if I'm right, continuing to work him in a ill-fitting saddle will exacerbate the problem.

Sorry for the essay, but I'm feeling really out of my depth here and could sure use some advice on how best to proceed.:)

[Dummer&Drummer]

arr hun wat a dilema, im too novice to help in any advice, but good luck xxx

[breeches]

im so sorry to hear of your troubles.
My cousin, is a very experianced horsewoman who grew up with horses from a baby. she had a situation with her current horse, where she bolted one day and hasnt been the same since.
She is now just schooling her and is feeding her a feed with a magnesium content which has turned he into a different horse altogether, she had a diet problem.....may be worth looking into perhaps.

[Mehitabel]

how tolerant is he generally? will he show pain if you poke around his back, or will he pretend nothing is wrong?

that would be my first port of call - see if he will tell you what is wrong. then if he does show signs of back pain, you at least know that you can go down that route.

have you seen him rearing when she is working with him? has anything changed that would make his behaviour change - different feed, put on or lost weight that might affect saddle fit, change of environment? has he had a fright doing anything, or an accident?

rearing is generally a reaction to the horse saying 'i can't go forward' - either because it is frightened (or thoroughly unwilling but not scared) to go somewhere or do something, or physically being restricted, for instance of the rider is kicking but hanging on to the mouth - often dressage horses badly trained will start rearing if the rider has too tight a contact trying to keep the nose in.

petal, for instance, only goes up when she physically cannot go forward - if her path is blocked and something scary is happening she feels she needs to get away from. others will go up if the mentally feel they can't go somewhere, for whatever reason.

can you think of anything like that that may have happened?

[Peace]

breeches, funny you should mention that. I've been doing some research into diet, preparing for the day the boys come home. Quanah's on oats now with not a lot of grazing (he's turned out, just on sparse pasture). I read yesterday how oats can produce a sugar high. Maybe getting him home and changing his diet will help.:)

[breeches]

breeches, funny you should mention that. I've been doing some research into diet, preparing for the day the boys come home. Quanah's on oats now with not a lot of grazing (he's turned out, just on sparse pasture). I read yesterday how oats can produce a sugar high. Maybe getting him home and changing his diet will help.:)
oats are full of energy, so perhaps you are on the right track already, something high in fibre and low in sugars. i was talking to a girl at the stables this morning and she said her horse went crazy if fed molasses....to much energy in it.
i am a believer in feeding what is available naturally, perhaps the grazing is enough?

[Mehitabel]

yes, oats are renowned for making some horses go loony. once one of our working liveries gave her pony some, as she is normally a real plod, and the next day it took 2 of us to hold her coming in from the field and nobody was willing ot get on her for a week until they had gotten out of her system. many horses are fine on them, but they can be rocket fuel.

[Peace]

how tolerant is he generally? will he show pain if you poke around his back, or will he pretend nothing is wrong?

Argh, that's another frustrating thing. Yes, when I feel his back for tenderness (and when the saddler did the same) he showed lots of reaction - swinging around, nipping, etc. Definite ouch. When his trainer does the same - nothing. Zip, nada. So of course trainer and RI think it's all in my head (or that he's putting me on).

I've never seen him rear. He's only done it with Leslie, but she has extremely light hands and I'm sure is not hanging on his mouth. I think it's an extreme-protest sort of thing. The only accident recently was when he caught his foot in the fence wire.

ETA: I don't think this recent behavior is all down to his feed, though. He's been fed the same for the past four years. The grazing at the stable isn't really adequate to support him so has to be supplemented. But I'll be putting him on almost all forage once he's home.

[cvb]

RI says his behavior is due to having had too much time off and the cure is to keep working him. Around here, people don't really believe in saddle fit issues.

<edit>

I love this little horse and absolutely can't imagine selling him. If I'm right about the source of his problem then I reckon I should let him have a little time off to get over the soreness and then start riding him myself, gently at first, in the treeless to see how he likes it. However, if they're right and he's just overly fresh and full of himself, my plan will be exactly the wrong thing to do. I've worked hard to build up my confidence and I don't want it destroyed. OTOH, if I'm right, continuing to work him in a ill-fitting saddle will exacerbate the problem.


Peace. For a start off, do you think the leg is sore, the back, or both ?

If its back, in theory you could keep working him from the ground and that will probably help his recovery *and* keep him stimulated. Often its not about tiring them out, its about keeping them mentally and physically stimulated. So it doesn't need to be physically hard work, it just needs to stretch him a bit - make him think.

And IMHO this would be ideal to help with the rearing as well as you can try and give him other ways than UP !

If its his leg that is still sore, thats a bit harder.

I guess the problem with trying the Trekker is that you need to rule out back problems first. if not, his reaction may be due to that.

I over-oated Fi my first winter in Sweden cos I was worried about her keeping warm. It blew her mind. She lives on air practically. Seriously - she pretty much gets the same as our ex-laminitic-on-a-diet Fell who is 13.3 to her 15.1 ! And she's not skinny even then. Can his oats be reduced *now* rather than waiting til he comes home ? Does he come in to eat and could he have some hay, or chaff or oat straw or something instead ?

I think if you feel you are managing the situation and have a plan, the terror will reduce. You still probably going to worry - because taking him home is an unknown. But it should be more manageable. I think you have to give yourselves a chance with some changes (food, saddle etc) before you make a decision. IMHO.

[Tootsie4U]

Oh how similar our stories are.

Persevere Peace, it'll all come right in the end if you want it to.

FYI, bringing my holy terror home was the best thing for him. I wouldnt classify myself as an unconfident rider anymore, but the consistency of a solid routine, single handler was what he needed. His bad behavior at the boarding stables was just him acting out and now that he doesnt have anything to act out against, he's been the best horse ever!

Its that time of year - grass - good weather - they are changing shape. I'd give the saddle a try - a good few weeks - without expectations that he'll react badly and see where that gets you.

You'll make it!

[LMS]

I don't understand why people insist that all horses should be given oats!

Unless it's crushed, it's a difficult feed to digest/break down and the body can't use it all. It's given for energy mainly (corn being another "hot" feed)

But then again it's a readily inexpensive feed to give. Sounds to me thought that Quanah could do without this feed.

If he's a hard keeper, try a Hi Fat Hi Fibre feed like Purina's. There's also another one just out that has double the amount of fat HF/HF. And these two feeds do not make the horse "hot" (Fizzy)

My mares currently are on pasture (hay when needed), have access to a salt lick and a vitamin/mineral block and of course water ad lib. And they are in very good health.

A thoroughbred I used to have was on the same regiment but had 2 feeds per day of Hi Fat/Hi Fibre with beet pulp for her weight. She was a hard keeper.

Horses are trickle feeders they need to graze all day long or have access to hay (sparsed out in little piles throughout the paddock to imitate grazing). It keeps their guts in good working order & makes them walk about.

I had a QH that used to rear, it was because he didn't understand what I wanted from him. I was retraining him to be a pleasure mount & all he knew was to be a barrel racer. So this was really foreign to him.

On top of that, he was already a high strung horse by nature yet increadibly intelligent but I had the confidence to take this project on & the know-how. He ended up being the best horse anyone could ask for, it took time though but he learned to be a western pleasure horse, could ground tie, we lunged, did basic dressage as well. But he never could get accustomed to having novices on his back or handling him. They made him nervous.

But you know what? You'll never know how he'll adapt unless you try it!

Get as much training/handling info & experience from your instructor where he is now, to get a good feel of him so that once home & he has settled in, you can start from step 1 & work your way up.

Honestly it would be unrealistic to think that one can just carry on from where he's at now. And besides, going back to basics reaffirms good ground manners & builds a bond & hierarchy between you & your horse.

Good luck, don't give up & take your time!:)

[capalldubh]

There are two things you say that catch my eye:

and after some spectacular initial battles (involving rearing, bucking, etc) Quanah began to really enjoy his work with her.

Quanah's never done anything to scare me, which I attribute to a combination of him having some consideration for his timid old mother

Rearing is a fear response - horses can learn to suppress fear, but that doesn't mean it's gone away. Just a thought, but maybe your horse remembers those initial battles, and isn't too happy about this particular person. He's fine with you - he doesn't associate you with anything scary, and by the sounds of it, he associates you with lots of nice things.

The other thing you said that triggered off this thought is that he flinches when you press on his back, but not when trainer does - if he's suppressing the fear with her, then that kind of frozen alertness is exactly what I'd expect.

It sounds to me as if Quanah and you get on fine - and are pretty safe together - and it sounds from your post as if that's your gut feeling too, but what the trainer is saying to you is making you uncertain of yourself.

I don't know if there's anything in this at all, but maybe it's worth a thought - along with all the good saddle fit suggestions and feed suggestions which I've read and which sound really good advice.

[Peace]

cvb - groundwork!:) What a good suggestion. TBH, it hadn't even occurred to me that his leg might still be sore - I'll check it to be sure, but haven't seen any sign of lameness. My RI doesn't do NH-style groundwork, but she does lunge and I don't know how. Would lunging be beneficial? Do I need a 66 foot (20 m) circle? We don't have a round pen that large, but I could work him on a line in the big riding school.

Tootsie - Thanks for the vote of confidence. I don't think I could give up on him till I at least give him a chance at home where I'm his only caregiver and there aren't 35 other horses around. I really think that will help both of us (in my saner more confident moments, that is).

[Tootsie4U]

Peace, Bonfire only gets hay replacer pellets. Blue Seal makes a good pellet but we're contemplating to switching over to Agway's brand. Bonfire is fatter than fat right now and shiny as can be - and healthy, which goes without saying but I said it anyway. Its low energy, which is why he's on that and not any other type of feed, and inexpensive.

If Quanah is an easy keeper too, you may want to consider switching him to something like this. Espeically this time of year when he gets all he needs from his grazing.

[Mehitabel]

very good points from capalldubh there. copper was the same with vets as a youngster - he was very suspicious and very defensive. he had a sore back once and would flich for me, for YM, YO and so on, but bring a vet intot he equation and he was stiff as a board and tense, no flinching, and wouldn't even trot up lame unless his leg was practically dangling off.

does he like her, is he at ease with her? have you tried having a complete stranger poke his back while you and YO watch from a distance to not influence him?

[Peace]

You know, I think I will go ahead and switch feeds now. Probably best to do it before I switch their home as well.:) Quanah is a very easy-keeper, as is Bram. What brand do you recommend, Toots?:)

capalldubh - yep, that thought had crossed my mind. Leslie's not mean to him or anything and he seems to love her, but she is strict with him and he may not feel as comfortable expressing himself with her.:)

Mehitabel - yes, the saddler made us all leave the barn when he prodded Quanah's back for just that reason. He said he appeared very sore around the withers and actually showed slightly one-sided muscular development.

[julia gulia]

Just curious but have you had a certified chiropractor out to check him?
My chiropractor made an amazing difference and was so helpful with saddle fit.

[cvb]

cvb - groundwork!:) What a good suggestion. TBH, it hadn't even occurred to me that his leg might still be sore - I'll check it to be sure, but haven't seen any sign of lameness. My RI doesn't do NH-style groundwork, but she does lunge and I don't know how. Would lunging be beneficial? Do I need a 66 foot (20 m) circle? We don't have a round pen that large, but I could work him on a line in the big riding school.


Peace - in hand work is kind of "conventional" and will do the trick. Lunging is fine and doesn't have to be in a pen but watch that it is about being soft and round and keep the circles large.

but - for example - you could also do work over raised poles (raise alternate ends of walk or trot poles) - which is sort of semi-lunge, semi-inhand.

and if you know anyone who long reins, you could see how he is with that ? (you can always start from lunging with 2 reins).

[smaggi]

Sorry to hear about the rearing. I've never experienced a vertical rear, only once when he brought the front legs up a bit.

I also think that groundwork would be a great idea. I would ground work him for a week, then try the new saddle in light work and see how he does. Then decide where to go from there.

I think I would also start feeding something besides sweet feed. We have had good luck with Strategy. It has less sugar. You can probably skip it altogether if he has enough good grass and he's doing light work.

[FRED]

:) to be honest
Quote:RI says his behavior is due to having had too much time off and the cure is to keep working him.

I think its very unlikely he rears because of time off:) working from the ground is a good idea and may be help to spot if there are other issues,backs are always the prime suspect, but joints/hips can cause unwanted behaviour.

I guess not in this case, but you can never rule out the rider and heavy hands.:)

[Peace]

Peace - in hand work is kind of "conventional" and will do the trick. . . you could also do work over raised poles (raise alternate ends of walk or trot poles) - which is sort of semi-lunge, semi-inhand.

OK, sorry to sound dense:o , but do you mean something like the "Perfect Manners" type exercises? I'm not really sure what you mean by "in-hand" work, sorry. Sounds like a good idea - although the last time I tried something like this, my RI (bless her) decided I'd lost my nerve and only wanted to "lead him around." I'm sure she'll think the same this time and be sorry she told me about the rearing, but oh well.

julia - I've heard there's a good chiro around Camden. My RI is looking into getting her to come to our place for her h/j horse, and I've already told her I want her to look at both my boys.:)

smaggi and FRED - yes, I think I'll do a week or so of groundwork and see if I spot any problems. By then I should have a better idea of how he might react to carrying me around for a short walk in the treeless.

FRED - I also have a hard time believing Quanah's rearing up out of over-exuberance. It just seems like to me he'd think that was a waste of energy better spent on mare-chasing or eating.:D

[FRED]

In the UK I know of horses that have become very lively when eating spring grass,I did buy a magnesium supplement for a horse that could just explode in canter ,but he never tried to rear or buck.I think its worth finding out more about magnesium deficiency too.

I hope you don't mind this question and its not ment to be spiteful or anything like that,what type of bit are they using and is it only your RI riding,or other people too.
Do the rears happen more on hacks in a need for more control circumstances,Im curious.Good luck.

And good luck with your new sadle,just a note, I have read and am aware of this sadle often being fitted about 1 to two inchs to far forward on horses.I realy like the Torsion sadle and bought a hip saver that after a few weeks I have found no need for.

[BeachRiding]

Groundwork! lunge him to exercise him and calm him down until you figure out his saddle issues, that's what I would do anyway.

[julia gulia]

here's a link on certified chiropractors just in case you ever need it:)

http://www.animalchiropractic.org/default2.htm

[KarinUS]

I am with Tootsie on this one. I remember being terrified by the thought of bringing Bixby home and having OH ride her on the trails since she got him hurt badly while we were still boarding.
But once we brought her home she actually behaved much better - we also chucked her old saddle though and took her bitless so lots of equipment changes...

I bet you are really worried though. When I saw your post's title I was so hoping it was just a really old one somebody revived by posting to it. :(

[Peace]

FRED - no I don't mind the question at all.:) It's only my trainer and I who ride him, although this week she is using him as a lesson horse for her young cousin who's visiting from out of town. Oddly enough, he's been good as gold for the little cousin. He's ridden in a full cheek snaffle english, and western we use an argentine "snaffle" - which isn't a snaffle at all but a very mild broken-mouth curb bit. But no one rides him with much of a contact at all - Leslie (my trainer) is very strict about that. I think he's only reared in the school, but I couldn't swear to it. I've never seen him do it.

willielove - I think I'm going to take up ground driving with him. I've never done it and neither has my RI, but I bet with a good book the two of us together wouldn't make too big a hash out of it.:) Scarlett and HC and poohsmate make it look like too much fun to miss out.

julia - thanks for the link!

Karin - thanks for the encouragement. I bet you were worried about Ray - I'd almost forgotten what a rocky start he and Bixby got off to. I hope Quanah will follow in Bixby's and Bonfire's hoofprints and chill out more once he gets home.:)

[cvb]

OK, sorry to sound dense:o , but do you mean something like the "Perfect Manners" type exercises? I'm not really sure what you mean by "in-hand" work, sorry. Sounds like a good idea - although the last time I tried something like this, my RI (bless her) decided I'd lost my nerve and only wanted to "lead him around." I'm sure she'll think the same this time and be sorry she told me about the rearing, but oh well.


I don't have "perfect manners" (no pun intended ;) ) but from what I've heard - yes, things like that. I borrowed stuff from Parelli, from TTeam, and from traditional lunging and long reining. Throw it all together... and have fun ! Oh, and Peggy Cummings does in hand as well. http://www.connectedriding.com/

Its hard to find much about classical inhand work unless its teaching High School stuff liek Spanish Walk and Piaffe/passage. but there *must* be a more basic level - its not logical otherwise. And how often have I seen instructors helping riders with leg yield (for example) from the ground ? Wouldn't it make sense to do this in hand first ?!

its funny - most people know about lunging even if they don't do it. Then some folk know about long reining - and some non-driving people do it but its like some secret club ! And finally even fewer people then do classical "in hand" work. But if its a useful training technique, why don't more of us know about it ?! I haven't found a book on long-reining I really like, and only found one person so far who could teach me.

Ah well - and after all its all just "leading them around" ;)

[smaggi]

He's ridden in a full cheek snaffle english, and western we use an argentine "snaffle" - which isn't a snaffle at all but a very mild broken-mouth curb bit.

I am no expert in bits and don't know what an argentine snaffle bit is. Did he rear with the snaffle bit or the curb bit? Do you neck rein him in the curb bit. Our horses that know how to neck rein do it in a regular snaffle bit so we never use curb bits. Is there a reason that you use the curb bit, like showing? I would think that if a horse feels trapped by a bit he might rear.

I'm not trying to critcsize you using a curb bit. I'm just trying to help you look for a possible answer.

[Peace]

Probably he reared with the snaffle bit.:) I'm the only one who tacks him up with an argentine snaffle, and I've never seen him rear.

Quanah "sort-of" neck-reins. By that I mean that he's trained to steer and stop off leg and seat aids - if the rider wants to add the neck-rein cue as well that's fine but it's not necessary.:)

I got the argentine snaffle for Quanah just because that's the bit I use for Bram - when I first started taking lessons on Quanah again it was the only bit I had. Quanah seemed to go fine in it so I ordered him one of his very own. I've also ridden him in a JP French link D-ring, but he didn't like it as well - horses, go figure.:confused: :D

I tried the Trekker Talent on him this weekend, but I'm not sure how well he liked it. He definitely objected to the dressage girth - he's never had one of those before. And he looked uncomfortable to me when I watched him ridden in it - head high, ears back, etc. But then when I got on him he seemed to relax somewhat. We only rode him a few steps at a walk, though, since he seemed to me to be a little sore to begin with. He did more work last week than he's accustomed to since his injury lay-off. So I'll give him a week or so and try again.:)

[smaggi]

I've also ridden him in a JP French link D-ring, but he didn't like it as well - horses, go figure.:confused: :D

I know what you mean. I used to ride Cisco in a full cheek snaffle, but he didn't seem to like it. Everyone told me to get a D-ring sweet iron snaffle, so I bought one. He hated it and tossed his head everytime I tried it. I made sure it didn't have any edges I could feel and I couldn't find anything wrong with it:cool: So I bought a D-Ring copper snaffle. It looked the same as the sweet iron one to me, but he loved it. :D

We use the sweet iron snaffle on Snuffy and he thinks it's a fine bit. I doesn't make sense to me, but it sure matters to them.

Do you usually use a western cinch with him instead of a dressage girth? Do you think it could be the material of the girth. I had a horse once that definitely hated a neoprene girth, but was OK with a leather one.

I think we could spend a fortune with some horses trying to get them comfortable.

Good luck and let us know how the ground work goes with him.

[Bronya]

Horses can be very particular about how they behave with specific people. It sounds like his saddle doesn't fit and he's suppressing the pain with you and the little cousin because he doesn't want to hurt anyone. With the girl who normally rides him he probably feels confident in that he can say OWWW! Without hurting her.

My girls do that. When they are feeling goey and want to have fun, they'll leap around with me, but not with my OH who's a novice, or anyone else who's not so sure.

[Peace]

smaggi - He's never had a dressage girth on before, but has had both western and normal english girths. This girth is neoprene - but so was my first western one. The others were leather. I hope it was just that he was sore and wanted to let me know that - well, not that I'm happy he was sore, I mean I hope it's not that he just won't have a dressage girth.:)

Melia - that's a pretty likely hypothesis. While Quanah is more apt to "tell" me if something's wrong while I'm on the ground, he is generally very careful with me if I'm on his back.:) With my trainer, it seems to work the other way around.

[sidesaddlelady1]

He's starting rearing - the straight-up vertical kind - again.:eek: I can tell that, in her heart of hearts, my RI/YO thinks he'll always be too much for me and I should just sell him.:(

Brief history for newer members: When I was a forty year old terrified novice, I bought Quanah, a recently-gelded green three year old. Yeah, I know.:rolleyes: Turned Quanah away till he was five, when the RI/YO's daughter began working with him. She's turned out to be a really gifted trainer, and after some spectacular initial battles (involving rearing, bucking, etc) Quanah began to really enjoy his work with her. She's taught him a great deal - he's discovered an aptitude for h/j and does well at local shows, and he hacks out alone and in company. Quanah is now seven. Meanwhile, I bought an old confidence-giver and have become a reasonably happy hacker. I'd begun having lessons on Quanah in the school, which were going well until early last spring, when Quanah cut his leg on some loose wire and had to take time off.

Trainer has been bringing Quanah back into work before I get on him again. Last night, RI tells me Quanah's been going vertical again - but upon closer inspection they found a piece of barbed wire in his tail.:eek: No, there is no barbed wire at my stable, but there are scraps around on the trails from the nearby farms. And if there's a way to get into something he shouldn't, Quanah will find it. So I say, well, small wonder he reared. "But that doesn't explain all the other times," replies my RI.:(

I should explain I am still not a confident rider. Quanah's never done anything to scare me, which I attribute to a combination of him having some consideration for his timid old mother and the fact that I won't push him very hard.

I've been suspecting saddle fit issues since he came back into work a month or so ago. Having no luck with treed saddles, I ordered a Trekker since Quanah's fairly flat-backed with not much wither. It arrived this week but I haven't tried it out yet.

RI says his behavior is due to having had too much time off and the cure is to keep working him. Around here, people don't really believe in saddle fit issues.

I'm getting my farm ready to bring both horses home in the fall, so the plan was for Quanah and me to have lots of lessons together between now and then to prepare for the day we'll be going solo. (I live in a remote rural area and OH doesn't do horses.) But I can tell my RI is now terrified at the thought of Quanah and I alone together. And TBH, so am I, at this point.:o

I love this little horse and absolutely can't imagine selling him. If I'm right about the source of his problem then I reckon I should let him have a little time off to get over the soreness and then start riding him myself, gently at first, in the treeless to see how he likes it. However, if they're right and he's just overly fresh and full of himself, my plan will be exactly the wrong thing to do. I've worked hard to build up my confidence and I don't want it destroyed. OTOH, if I'm right, continuing to work him in a ill-fitting saddle will exacerbate the problem.

Sorry for the essay, but I'm feeling really out of my depth here and could sure use some advice on how best to proceed.:)
Have you asked the vet to recommend a "back man" (equine osteopath, chiropractor, physio, etc)?

Does he need to see the equine "dentist"? If his mouth hurts he might rear to escape the bit. Is your bit too severe?

Are you feeding something that doesn't agree with him (eg the WH is a lunatic if he just sniffs barley)? Or are you feeding too much "hard feed" (corn)?

If he's living out could someone be getting at him? Or if he lives in on a communal yard, could someone be slipping him "treats" and extra food?

He isn't entire still is he? It doesn't always follow that stallions are difficult but they do tend to get the bit between their teeth (figuratively speaking) when there are a lot of mares in season in the locality.

[Peace]

sidesaddlelady - I definitely think he needs a "back man.":) Unfortunately they're not easy to find in my area.:( But there is Camden, about 130 miles away, which is a town with lots of high-dollar steeplechasers and showjumpers. I'm looking for one there.

He just had the dentist out in January. But she's coming back to do Bram soon and I'll have her take a look. I doubt it's the bit - he's ridden mostly in a snaffle and with light to no contact as he's trained to respond to weight and leg aids almost exclusively.

Re food: he's eating exactly the same as he has for years. I will be changing him to almost exclusively forage once he comes home to the farm, though and I think that will help. I don't think anyone who values their fingers would feed him treats - he's called Quanah the Piranha for a reason!:o

He was gelded four years ago, but neither he nor the mares in the back pasture seem to recognize that fact.:rolleyes: He is harder to deal with when turned out with them than when he's out in the smaller paddock with the one gelding on the yard who can dominate him.

However, YO says she's turning him out in the big back pasture with the mares again. The dominant gelding is spending the rest of the summer in Camden with his owner. Without Walker to keep him on the straight and narrow, Quanah will be out of the small paddock and back with the mares whether we allow it or not - if we try to prevent it we'll just wind up with broken fence and vet bills.

So back he goes to his harem, and I'll just wait till he comes home to "civilize" him.:) The big pasture will be more like the turnout he'll have at my house anyway, so I won't have to worry about him stuffing himself with my grass and possibly colicking once I bring him home. Which will only be another two or three months, I hope.:)

[sidesaddlelady1]

sidesaddlelady - I definitely think he needs a "back man.":) Unfortunately they're not easy to find in my area.:( But there is Camden, about 130 miles away, which is a town with lots of high-dollar steeplechasers and showjumpers. I'm looking for one there.

He just had the dentist out in January. But she's coming back to do Bram soon and I'll have her take a look. I doubt it's the bit - he's ridden mostly in a snaffle and with light to no contact as he's trained to respond to weight and leg aids almost exclusively.

Re food: he's eating exactly the same as he has for years. I will be changing him to almost exclusively forage once he comes home to the farm, though and I think that will help. I don't think anyone who values their fingers would feed him treats - he's called Quanah the Piranha for a reason!:o

He was gelded four years ago, but neither he nor the mares in the back pasture seem to recognize that fact.:rolleyes: He is harder to deal with when turned out with them than when he's out in the smaller paddock with the one gelding on the yard who can dominate him.

However, YO says she's turning him out in the big back pasture with the mares again. The dominant gelding is spending the rest of the summer in Camden with his owner. Without Walker to keep him on the straight and narrow, Quanah will be out of the small paddock and back with the mares whether we allow it or not - if we try to prevent it we'll just wind up with broken fence and vet bills.

So back he goes to his harem, and I'll just wait till he comes home to "civilize" him.:) The big pasture will be more like the turnout he'll have at my house anyway, so I won't have to worry about him stuffing himself with my grass and possibly colicking once I bring him home. Which will only be another two or three months, I hope.:)

Sorry, I suppose my suggestions were a bit obvious but one never knows.

Are there any other horse owners near you who would be interested in a joint/shared visit from the back man? It would make it cheaper for each of you and he might be more inclined to travel the distance for a "bulk order", making life easier for you.

[Peace]

Sorry, I suppose my suggestions were a bit obvious but one never knows.

Are there any other horse owners near you who would be interested in a joint/shared visit from the back man? It would make it cheaper for each of you and he might be more inclined to travel the distance for a "bulk order", making life easier for you.

Not at all.:)

Probably my YO would be interested for her s/j 'er. I don't know about the rest of the liveries - it's kind of a different world round here when it comes to things like that. We've only just got them used to the idea of the dentist!:)