Horses feet? Why oh why???!!!!

[Rebecca00]

I know that you all think that 'natural horsemanship' is the way forward! Well im sorry to disagree but i think it is a shambles! :)
I have been on the yard i am currently at for many years and it has always been a friendly yard and everyone has always got on. Then suddenly new people arrived with strange ideas and many people have now turned in to geeks!:D
I dont care if people want to practice this sort of 'funny business' but when it is starting to damage horses wellbeing thats when i think it is very wrong!

There is one lady at my yard who took it upon herself to do a TWO DAY course on how to trim her horse! (uummmmmm!:confused: ) This is fine if its just her horse that shes doing! But shes now charging people about £25 to pare their feet which she does once a week?????:confused: (shouldn't that be every 8 weeks?) The horses are lame, have sensitive feet, their feet are uneven a few of them have not got a matching pair, quite a few are having a problem with their White line.
When my farrier came to shoe my horse he saw some of the horse feet and was disgusted with them! Farriers have to train for years and years to get to be able to pare and shoe horses feet and now you can train for TWO DAYS and suddenly you can be qualified! WHEN WILL THE FARRIER COUNCIL PUT A STOP TO THIS!:D
These people on my yard my talk the talk, but at the end of the day they just recite from books!

If we are going to be natural with our horses then why bring them in form the field at all? Surely this is cruel and even riding them is cruel??? The 'natural peoples' horses have no manners at all, if they dont want to walk the owner waits until the horse is ready to walk :confused: if they are riding and they dont want to trot thats fine with them! My horse had excellent manners, i dont get dragged around the field and my horse does what i tell him to! Inever hit my horse or shout at him, i just show him whos boss!
Horses have been domesticated for thousands and thousands of years! They have been riden for thousands of years and now suddenly some strange people come along and say random strange things and everyone believes them! If i said ooohh put water on to your horse and it will grow over night, you would probably believe me!
PLEASE STOP DAMAGING YOUR HORSES BEFORE ITS TOO LATE.
Around Manchester (where my yard is) many people are turning their backs on traditional horsemanship and opting to be natural! :D

I know I will now get alot of abuse for writing this but i dont care! I have had horses all of my life and i think these 'natural people' need to see the damaged that they are doing!!
I am not abusing the people who use Natural Horsemanship in the right manner!!

[Wally]

I think what you say is indeed very true, you make a lot of valid points.

A little knowledge is a dangerous thing, and 2 days is not long enought to learn the full range of problems you may encounter with feet and trimming.

I get a lot of abuse in barefoot forums, as I say, and I stand by it, that not all horses are suited to barefoot. I was doing barefoot endurance riding back in the 70's, my vet had to supply a letter to the organisers stating that the horse I was riding was ble to compete. Nothing is new. BUT that pony had to be shod once we were training for 100 mile rides, there was no way his feet could keep pace with the work required of him. You don't think that if I could compete without the added costs and problems of shoes I would spend money for the sake of it. It was done on the grounds of welfare.

Some of my lot are barefoot, their work load and job dictates this, some HAVE to be shod, it is not that they could go barefoot with a "correct trim" they cannot, I have been on this planet long enought to know which horses, doing which jobs can go barefoot and which cannot.

I would echo the above post, let's have a bit of common sense in the "natural" horsemanship way of doing things. No evangelical preaching and wide generalisations. I am all for barefoot if the horse can manage and it is done with a proper farrier and vet advice.

[Rebecca00]

Hi! Thankyou for your reply!
You are very correct! My friends horse is barefoot but it is done by a proper qualified farrier! It only suits certain horses and certain foot types!
Thankyou for the support!!
Kind regards
Rebecca.:D

[Bronya]

I do find it interesting that when I was a child, often ponies were not shod because their feet were hard, native feet and they had never shown the need for shoes with their workload. Horses always were. Now it's all 'new' that you don't have to shoe your pony/horse??!! :rolleyes:

Mine aren't shod, but one IS a native who's never shown any footiness or discomfort without, and the other is more comfortable without due to her comformation and her locking stifles. Neither need shoes with the workload they do, as most of it is off road or in the manege, and they're only ridden for an hour or two at most each day. My farrier trims them when they need it, and I rasp off any nicks and scratches, and keep them neat. Exactly what we used to do with those ponies!

But please, bear in mind that there are some really bad farriers out there, some bad vets, bad YOs, etc. We all just accept them as the exception and avoid them. Should you meet a bad barefoot trimmer, why tar them all with the same brush? I would agree this lady is maybe not doing a good job, but that doesn't mean that ALL barefoot horses are uncomfortable and lame, or that ALL trimmers are bad.

Likewise, people get in a state about bitless bridles (who didn't ride in a headcollar as a child??!!), and treeless saddles. I distinctly remember regularly hopping on bareback and with a headcollar when I was younger, and used to ride that way up from the field at my old yard. With the saddles my girls have, they are treeless but I can't swap them round as the girls have very different conformation and one type of treeless saddles does not fit all horses. Same as with treed ones really.

Basically, if people don't apply their normal, common sense horsey approach to natural horsemanship, THAT is when things go wrong, it's not the ideas in themselves, it's how they are used.

[Rebecca00]

:) Hi, im not taring everyone with the same brush! I just dont believe in completely trimming your horses feet!

One of my ponies is barefoot just because he doesnt need shoes as his feet are hard!
I just hope that people will listen and use qualified trimmers and farriers not people who have just been on a course!

Your horses feet are one of the most important parts of its body!
Thankyy for the reply! I think people just need to practice natural horsemanship better in order for it to get a better reputation!
Kind regards
Rebecca.:D

[CMR]

I don't agree with what you say about Natural Horsemanship, because the way your post is written is very offensive. Don't go on a insulting rampage unless you know your facts.

However, I agree someone should never be qualified to trim feet unless they have got the proper education. Trimming your own horses without a lack of knowledge feet is NOT a Natural Horsemanship thing, it's an idiot thing. I have never heard of one Natural Horsemanship 'guru' that says you should trim your own feet.

People interpret 'Natural' in different ways. The first thing people in Natural Horsemanship fix is ground manners, you will never see someone who is practising Natural Horsemanship properly have a horse with bad ground manners.

The people on your yard are not practising Natural Horsemanship properly. That is no reason for you to join an internet forum and begin to verbally bash those that practise is properly though. Perhaps think about what you type next time.

[Rebecca00]

Hi, i am not attacking you or the people who are not damaging their horse, which i quite clearly state in my orignal post!!

All i want to do is make people aware of the damage they are causing their horses. I am not insulting anyone but them.

These people are trying to push their methods down peoples throats and the methods which have worked for years seem to be disguared! Be assured that the post is not insulting people who practice natural horsemanship in the proper manner.

Kind regards
Rebecca.:D

[Wally]

I think the verbal bashing was aimed entirely at the misguided folk she encountered personally on her yard. She did put "natural" in inverted commas, indicating that they were not entirely au fait with the parctices! and she was not using the word in its accepted way. (ie encompassing teachings from Parelli, Kelly Marks, Monty Roberts etc)

I din't like the term, Natural horsemanship, what EXACTLY does it mean?

[Rebecca00]

Thankyou for sticking up for me!!!

xxxxx:D

[MelanieD]

There's really no need to go off on one about 'natural horsemanship' in general just because you have met a few muppets getting it all wrong.

The barefoot sounds suspiciously strasser like. 2 days isn't long enough to be qualified and deal with hoof problems, if the horses are sore then either the trimmer is doing something wrong or the hooves are bad enough that they need someone with far more experience than a 2 day course to be trimming them and advising the owners. I have zero formal training in trimming but have read a lot and seen plenty of trimming done, I do a little bit of trimming myself on ones that aren't complicated (own horses and occasionally friends horses, don't charge for it) and can do a better job than several useless farriers in my area, yet I don't feel the need to get in a strop about all farriers being bad because of a few muppets.

Having seen a horse that wasn't even fully comfortable in shoes and was loosing them all the time get to the point where she can canter on stoney tracks barefoot I do think barefoot is a good thing. That a horse is a bit footy without shoes now doesn't mean that it can't ever cope barefoot, there are limits to barefoot and horses it doesn't suit, but for some it's just a matter of the right trim, environment and work and waiting to get much healthier hooves and if boots and pads are used there doesn't need to be pain involved.

Wally - despite being a bit of a barefooter I doubt many horses could do 100 mile rides without some kind of protection. There is a limit to how fast even the best most thoroughly conditioned hooves can grow, but that limit is far away from what some farriers think it is when they put shoes on for maybe a mile or two of roads. Trim is important but environment is almost more important. I've noticed you mention in several posts that most of your horses live out and are quite keen on going into the boggy bits, most hooves adapted to that environment aren't going to be tough barefoot hooves that can do high milage on harder surfaces. One of mine has been working barefoot for quite a while and was doing okay but was needing boots some of the time. I have noticed a huge change since she's been on a dry field with access to concrete and sand and been deprived of her little bog-snorkelling hobby. Tighter growth coming in at the top and capable of much more work without boots, and she's only been at the new place a month. A bit of a change in the environment could hugely increase the amount of work that's possible without shoes, but since you have a lot of horses all living out and it isn't practical then shoes are the obvious solution.

All 'natural horsemanship' type approaches are when done well are common sense and looking at how the horse behaves and learns naturally and working with that intstead of against it. Unfortunatly there are plenty of people getting it wrong and forcing the horse to live 'naturally' when it doesn't suit them or thinking it means not to discipline their horse. Not all 'traditional' methods have common sense about them either, and can be as bad if not worse than the 'natural' approach gone too far.

[Rebecca00]

PLEASE RE-READ MY POST!!
I have not said that farriers are bad! Farriers are THE BEST DONT TRIM YOUR OWN HORSES FEET.
Please read my post before sending me messages like that!

I am not insulting Natural Horsemanship and if you read my post properly then you would know this!
Iam insulting the way that some people are damaging their horses by trimming their feet themselves.

Always get a qualified Farrier to trim your horses feet, treat them like Platinum!

[MelanieD]

I suggest you re-read my post, I didn't say you were calling farriers bad. My point was I don't dump on all farriers because some of them whose work I have seen appear to be rather useless so how about you don't dump on all people who use non-farriers to trim or trim themselves because you have met one idiot getting it wrong.

Qualified farriers have done plenty of damage to both my horse's feet, the mess has now been sorted out by a trimmer who isn't a farrier, and I do some trimming myself, and my horses have very healthy hooves now.

Edited to add: Off out now to give my horsie a pedicure :p

[Yann]

Depending on how you look at these things barefoot and 'natural horsemanship' are two completely separate things anyway.

Horses shouldn't be fully trimmed weekly and they shouldn't be sored by a trim, although some horses do need help with boots and padding when the shoes are first removed. The horse should be comfortable at all times. What sensible horse owner lets their horse's feet be trimmed by someone who's done no more than a 2 day course? Not I. But a similar situation arose on our yard, a livery (who is a member on here) was at her wits end because farriery couldn't keep her horse sound. She went barefoot, got a qualified trimmer and has never looked back. She attended courses and studied and gradually started taking other horses on alongside the trimmer. Every single horse that has gone barefoot on our yard has shown improvements in their soundness and the shape and health of their feet, mine included. I'm afraid I give her more credence on horses feet than some of the farriers I've met.

I'm afraid the FRC is in no position to dictate anything, for sure rogue trimmers and Strasser followers need stopping, it's a serious welfare issue, but they need to get their own house in order first. Once you become more aware of what good healthy feet should look like (not butchered ones) you realise how bloody poor some of the shoeing and trimming done by some farriers is. Some horses eventually go permanently lame and get sent to the knackers as a result. There doesn't appear to be an effective disciplinary system in place nor a programme of ongoing professional development or assessment.

At the end of the day horse owners need to get informed and know enough to make a judgement about the standard of work done by professionals on their horses, not blindly accept what they're given either 'because it's a qualified farrier' or because it's 'barefoot will save the world'.

[Rebecca00]

Hi, there are so many people on my yard who are bare foot and have had so many problems with it!

A horse with hard feet is fine to be barefoot, but some of the horses have to wear the easy boots on their hooves because their feet can not cope with the work they are doing! I see no problem with going without shoes on if their feet can cope with it!
I have known two horses on my yard that have had to have their shoes back on because of the dredful mess of their feet!
I know some farriers can be a nightmare! Believe me ive had my share! But my farrier i currently have is excellent and he gives amazing advice on my horses feet.
I just hope people realise that having your horse without shoes on is not always the answer!
:rolleyes:

[Yann]

but some of the horses have to wear the easy boots on their hooves because their feet can not cope with the work they are doing!

Errr yes? So what's the difference between that and nailing lumps of metal to their feet? At least they can take the boots off when they've finished riding and the feet can function as they were meant to. Hoof boots are a viable alternative to shoes these days and will continue to improve.

I see no problem with going without shoes on if their feet can cope with it!

Sometimes going barefoot is the only option left for horses that have such poor feet they can't hold a shoe any more or are lame with navicular symptoms, and there's an astonishing success rate in rehabilitating them. And there are plenty of formerly crap flat footed Tb's working successfully without shoes now.

I just hope people realise that having your horse without shoes on is not always the answer!

Absolutely. If anyone with barefoot horses says otherwise, run a mile.

[iloveshearer]

...

[Zingy]

A horse with hard feet is fine to be barefoot, but some of the horses have to wear the easy boots on their hooves because their feet can not cope with the work they are doing!

My horse is barefoot but wears boots for some work. Work he wouldn't be able to do barefoot, but personally I see him being barefoot 99% of the time and wearing boots 1% better for him than wearing shoes 100% of the time. Just my opinion.

The problem isn't barefoot or natural horsemanship or any other kind of title you want to give to this. The problem is the same one that's been around for years and years - people who don't listen properly who find out half a story about something and think they know it all and who go off and make a huge mess without ever really looking back at what they are doing and considering the horses welfare. Unfortunately there's a lot of it about and there always will be. If owners are prepared to let these people experiment on their animals then it just reinforces their belief that they are 'right'.

Anything taken to extremes like this is not going to achieve sensible results, whether it's so-called natural or traditional or whatever.

[Wally]

Where I live there is no "dry" field, most have a wet patch, I shoe mine once they wear faster than they can grow. 7 miles a day on our really, REALLY gravelly roads wear a small Shetland hoof down too fast. We don't have any smooth tarmac roads, they are all done with large chippings.

If they were tarmac I dare say I wouldn't need shoes at all.

All the original poster is saying is. If you are going to go bare foot 100% of the time then get the farrier's advice, if you are not certain, get a second opinion, but don't let "muppetts" mess with your horses feet after a 2 day course.

I've been on 4 day child protection courses, it doens't make me a social worker! ;) ;) ;) done 4 days HSE first aid, am not a Doctor.

[Rebecca00]

This is very true! My post has been taken competly out of context!
Also in reply to Yann:
If your horse needs these boots maybe it should have shoes on! If my horse did no road work or work on a hard surface i would not have shoes on as i dont think they would be needed.
But i think if you are doing anty work on hard surfaces then shoes are definatly needed.

You can place aluminum shoes on your horses which are so light the horse doesnt even know if its got them on if as Yann says you dont want big clumps of metal nailed to their feet!
Ask your farrier to let you have a look at the aluminum shoes and have a feel with the normal shoes and se what you think!:D

[Wally]

Aluminium shoes are too soft, you are better using steel and leaving them on for a few weeks than re shoing all the time with ally.

We had a mare who refised to be shod behind. I made her a pair of lether sandals to stop her hind feet wearing down so fast.

You don't have to be shod, but giving an unshod horse a bit of help with boots, I don't think is too bad.....but it's still not "natural" :) ;) ;) ;)

The rule with shoeing, is use the lightest shoe you can get away with, the bigger the shoe the more and bigger nails you need to hold it on.

My berfooters can do a fair bit of roadwork, all in trot, as they are driving ponies, but once they start to work seriously, there is no way they can go barefoot.

[Guest]

I must admit I haven't read all of the post son here but I guessed that people wouldn't take to kindly to the original thread.
I am slightly worried that your YO is allowing this to go on, I am aware and accept that some horses will experience a prolonged period of lameness when they first go barefoot and I don't think that this is cruel at all but allowing someone to teach these methods on the yards isn't really on.
With regards to going barefoot I am not a NH follower but I am considering going barefoot at some point just because I think bry could go without shoes. Look at it this way, if you had a horse that had never been shod the chances are their feet would just adapt to it and they would be fine, even if they were a tb with flat feet, just a thought.
I do agree with you on the cuddly fluffy 'let my horse do what he pleases' method though, they are big animals and they need to respect you as a leader.
There are so many examples of why what you said is invalid but why points you made are perfectly justified.
And I agree with whoever said that these people aren't NH they are idiots.

[Yann]

My horse is transitioning, which means that after many years of being shod her feet are adjusting to being without them again and toughening up, this can take a while. I don't need boots all the time, only when we're going a long way or on a route with particularly rough or stony patches, and the boots mean I've been able to carry on riding and having fun with my horse without interruption. My hope is that we'll eventually be able to manage everything without boots, and everything is pointing in that direction. But if I still need to boot up from time to time, so be it. My horse spends very little of her life actually being ridden on difficult surfaces, so why does she need permanent foot protection?

My horses feet stay pretty much perfectly balanced from trim to trim, that is never the case with shoes however good the farrier is as there's no wear possible and the whole foot grows down, and unfortunately in many cases forwards too, potentially causing various issues. She moves better than she did in shoes and has good topline. I don't need to go back to shoes, though I have no problem with people shoeing their horses, on looking at the whole picture for us I've decided I don't need to. I see it as just another choice, like whether or not to clip or rug (of which I do both;)).

[Rebecca00]

I would like to point out that i was never abusing barefoot! I was only pointing out about triming your own horses feet!
The horses on our yard are so flat footed! They are getting abcesses in the summer:confused: which is caused by the white line opening up due to the paring!

The YO can not stop people trimming their horses feet! She has given advise where it is needed but these people dont listen to anyone as they think that they are always right!:eek:

I agree that aluminmum shoes wear down quickly but they are so light that if you have to shoe this may be the wat forward!

I think we all need to remeber that horses have worn shoes for many many years and have always got on fine with them! I think we should stop 'mollicoddling' our horses and just get on with it!

Again! do what you want with your horse, but im complaining about the trimming of your horses feet not being barefoot!!!!

[Guest]

One is presuming that all the yelling wasn't directed at me!!

If a person is teaching trimming methods and getting paid for it on your YO property then she can do something about it I am sure.

[Rebecca00]

No it wasnt for you at all!!:)

Thanks for the advice though, i'll be sure to have a word with the YO tomorrow!

[Guest]

Good good, I am a sensitive sole:)

[mayS]

There is one lady at my yard who took it upon herself to do a TWO DAY course on how to trim her horse! (uummmmmm!:confused: ) This is fine if its just her horse that shes doing! But shes now charging people about £25 to pare their feet which she does once a week?????:confused: (shouldn't that be every 8 weeks?)

You shouldn't wait 8 weeks between farrier visits this time of year, shod or not.

Weekly trims are fine for barefooters to keep them looking pretty, but it's not required. It's acceptable to wait ~4 weeks between barefoot trims. Some of my horse friends will conservatively rasp off any chipping in between visits of the barefooter.


The horses are lame, have sensitive feet, their feet are uneven a few of them have not got a matching pair, quite a few are having a problem with their White line.

This has nothing to do with Natural Horsemanship or barefoot trims. This has to do with an experienced person experimenting on someone elses' animals. A bad farrier could be giving unbalanced trims and poorly fitting shoes.... it's not a "barefoot" problem.

On behalf of the idea of going barefoot, i think a novice has no business going around causing problems with others' horses. It does sound like the horse owners want to go with barefoot. Why not help by finding them the name of a GOOD barefoot trimmer in the area so they don't have to use the crazy lady?

Do be aware although farriers are well trained and know how to trim feet, their trims (prepping for a shoe) are different than a true barefoot trim. I'm hesitant to recommend your own farrier do the barefoot trims for these people without knowing how much experience he has with shoeless horses.

If we are going to be natural with our horses then why bring them in form the field at all? Surely this is cruel and even riding them is cruel??? The 'natural peoples' horses have no manners at all, if they dont want to walk the owner waits until the horse is ready to walk

Again I think you're confusing people who are making up stuff as they go along with people who are experienced horsemen.

You're not being fair at all. The whole point of an owner studying NH is to improve the horse's manners. I think you just have a few dingbats who don't understand what they're doing.

My horse had excellent manners, i dont get dragged around the field and my horse does what i tell him to! Inever hit my horse or shout at him, i just show him whos boss!

And mine have great manners to. I ride in only a snaffle bit, even outside the arena, never needed anything more harsh. I rarely use a crop. When I lead, they should follow along with me willingly-- no chain shank or pressure rope halter. BUT I'm not about domination or neing alpha-horse. I'm just about consistent handling, good timing of reward or neg punishment, and not tolerating anything dangerous. I use some NH and some Clicker Training.

Horses have been domesticated for thousands and thousands of years! They have been riden for thousands of years and now suddenly some strange people come along and say random strange things and everyone believes them!

Good Natural Horsemanship is based on many years of observation and study. NH seeks to understand the horse instead of just beating the crap out of it. There all well thought out theories behind it. You might be suprised by the interesting things some of the NH pioneers have discovered.

PLEASE STOP DAMAGING YOUR HORSES BEFORE ITS TOO LATE.

What kind of damage do you mean? :confused:

I personally lean towards NH & clicker training: no beating the spirit out of them. No buying a harsher & harsher bit when their mouth deadens and they don't listen. No "training" them to tie by chaining them to a big tree and leaving them for hours (or days!). No "catching" them as a green horse by lasso. No teaching them "acceptance" of people by pulling them to the ground and having people sit on them till they give up.

If anything by using +reinforcement and removal of pressure, I'm getting them to think and learn without risking their safety & sanity. The end result is also an obedient horse, but one who can think for himself, enjoys his work, doesn't get injured in training. and who looks forward to work sessions.

I feel you need to change barns if these other boarders upset you too much.

They're clearly ignorant people. There are ingorant people in any kind of horse owning/training/riding. These folks are NOT a good example of Natural Horsemanship. Please do not judge an entire training philosophy on some fruit-loops at your stable.

If you're able to, watch a presentation by someone like John Lyons. You'll be amazed how he can get horses listening to him.

[Aphrodite]

Hi.

I've no problem with either. In the most ideal situation, it would be lovely if all our horses could go barefoot as nature intended. However, horses are unnaturally 'treated' (maybe the wrong word) in that they are expected to carry a weight on their back. This is fine and horses have adapted in able to do this.

It's my belief (and only my belief) that most horses' feet, given time and gradual increase in exposure, would gradually toughen up to increased work on hard or stony surfaces. Most horses in the wild manage this perfectly well, however they are not ridden.

It is entirely up to the owner as to how they want to manage their horses feet. If your horse would struggle going barefoot for whatever reason, then shoeing of protective boots may be the answer. I personally think boots are an excellent alternative to shoes, as like someone else has mentioned, the feet are natural 99% of the time, and unnaturally supported only when needed, therefore allowingthe foot to grow naturally. Again, this is a matter for you.

Personally, i prefer barefoot if the horse can handle it, but i have no objections to shoeing, like trimming, when it's done correctly.

This silly person at your yard (and silly horse owners letting her do it) needs to be stopped or else educated as to what she is doing wrong and why. Whilst she is getting paid for it, there's no way she's going to stop. Soulds like easy money to me! Easy, but not ethical.

As someone else mentioned, she shouldn't be doing this and receiving payment for it. If you have concerns or issues re the horses welfare it may be wise to seek advice from the rspca or similar. in the meantime your YO could always report her to the tax dept for non payment of taxes (if applicable). Good luck in sorting this one out. Not all people who trim are crap though, just like all farriers. Just because one apple is bad you don't throw the lot out!

[Yann]

I think we all need to remeber that horses have worn shoes for many many years and have always got on fine with them! I think we should stop 'mollicoddling' our horses and just get on with it!

Why is it it mollycoddling? I certainly 'get on with it' with my horses :) Sorry, whilst many horses have got on fine with being shod plenty have suffered problems as a result of it. Also in the old days many horses used to be turned away for a few months each year without shoes, that just doesn't happen any more, hence all the problems with navicular symptoms and hooves that are too poor to hold a shoe.

[Rebecca00]

Wow! I have upset some of you havent i!!!!! lol!

You have all taken this so personally! Wasi insulting YOU? NO!
All i was saying is that i dont agree with someone thinking they know how to trim after being on a two day course! Your the ones who've gone off on one getting all insulted about barefoot! Two of my horses have no shoes on!
I didnt post it to talk about that!

All im saying is dont start triming your horses feet! Leave it to someone who knows what they are doing!

[tubby]

Lord Bobbin "prolonged period of lamenes" ,what an awful thought. When you "go barefoot" your horse shouldn't go lame,mine went a little footy after a week & a week after that was fine.I feel that if a horse is able to go barefoot & if the horse's workload allows it is better for the horse. That said some horses don't seem to be able to cope,either because of the workload or the going the horse is used on. Whatever happens there will always be some numpties who decide that they must must follow the latest natural horse craze.Unfortunately a lot don't do the job correctly,like the people on OP's yard who are happy to allow someone who's incompetent trim their horses.

[Rebecca00]

Wow! Why doesnt everyone go and read my post and realise that i have no problem with barefoot trimming! Just the unqualified performing it!
Two of my horses are'barefoot' they are trimmed by my excellent farrier who i find to be amazing! PLease read my post properly! All i wanted to do was to make people aware whats going on in some yards with unprofessionals triming horses and messing up their feet!

[Gill]

But now you really have insulted me by blaspheming which has no place on this board.

I'm sorry to say that you sound rather aggressive in your posts and really have no need to tell others what to do with their horses feet. My ponies are trimmed by my farrier but my daughter in another part of the country copes perfectly well with trimming her own boy and has the soundest horse on her yard.

Aliminium shoes? How could it be different nailing on those rather than traditional shoes? Every 8 weeks? I don't think so but then that may suit your horse so I would not presume to tell you what to do.

I don't normally join in these ranty posts so I'll stop now. Its great having your own place because you escape all this kind of stuff and can work in a way which suits you and your horses.

[Rebecca00]

eh????????:confused:
Why dont people actually listen!!
Im not complaining! These people are damaging horses feet! Fine do it to your own but dont start charging £20 for a trim and then make the horses lame!!

Do what you want with your own horses! But really dont start being cruel and making them lamethorugh trimming!
:D

[Gill]

Well I did read your post and it was the blasphemy which annoyed me and as I say has no place on NR.

[Rebecca00]

Where did i blaspheme?
I can assure you that i am a true christian, please tell me where i have insulted you?:confused:

[Guest]

Lord Bobbin "prolonged period of lamenes" ,what an awful thought. When you "go barefoot" your horse shouldn't go lame,mine went a little footy after a week & a week after that was fine.

(Cowering behind a chair) I'm sorry I meant footy. I only know one horse who is barefoot and he has ouchy moments when out hacking and has had for a while and believe me he has the best care he can have. I mean with the oucy moments he can't be worked 'properly' as he could if he didn't have the ouchy moments

Just a point Rachael, I am guessing you are new.

People get very passionate about things on here so I wouldn't take it to personally

(ducks back behind chair to miss flying debris)

[jenren!!]

There are different methods of trimming barefoot. If it causes the horse pain, dont go there. If a person learns to trim themselves and are qualified then yes they are ok but yes it is wrong to do it unqualified.

I do think this thread is getting a little out of hand and im no moderator, but please lets not complicate things and start attacking each other. Rebecca i think you are slightly complaining as that is kind of what your thread is doing - complaining. I do agree that it is unfair, but what i dont agree with is people presuming these people are performing 'natural horsemanship'. NH is not about causing the horse pain, yes, Dr Strasser probably labelled her methods 'natural' but its not natural, its plain cruel. People have different perceptions about what 'natural' is, i think that is what complicates things and people get confused what 'natural horsemanship' actually is.

I wasnt going to answer to this thread, simply because i dont want to get into a debate but i feel i have to say it and i have, i'll leave you all to it.

Jenny xx

[Gill]

I see you have now edited the offensive post, thank you so you were quite aware of what you said.

[jenren!!]

Oh and as for the 'prolonged period of lameness' comment (Bobbin :p) i think every horse is going to feel something when their shoes are suddenly taken off. I mean, its like us taking our shoes off and wlaking around in bare feet on stony ground.

Aramis would be very footsy about it, of course, but i think the main thought is some more than others

Jenny xx

[tubby]

Oh no Bobbin ,honest I'm not throwing things at you:)

[Guest]

Oh no Bobbin ,honest I'm not throwing things at you:)

I wasn't talking about you hun!!

[Wally]

Stop it, everyone go and stand in a corner! ;) ;) ;)

I have read all of the posts, and from what I read you all flippin' well agree with each other! so why are you arguing??

Barefoot has its place we all agree,

Pain and riding lame, acscessing horses is un acceptable.

Bad foot trimmers are a pest as are lazy farriers.

every horse/rider/driver combination is different, they all do toatlly different jobs in different situations.

So long as we are all aware of the damage a bad farrier can do, as can a bad trimmer or even a lazy, inobsewrvant owner we will not go far wrong.

It is good to see that everyoneone is reading up, learning and trying different methods in an effort to get the best for thier own horse.

I will never subscribe to barefoot 100% as I know my horses cannot do what is required of them unshod. I was endurance riding barefoot back in the 70's and competeing and training for 50 mile rides I know what is, and isn't possible, but I do know a lot more is possible than most will give credit to.

If you can go barefoot, on a sound happy horse, go you, but it may not be the answer to every horse and rider/driver.

[Yann]

Wow! I have upset some of you havent i!!!!! lol!


No, I was just answering your questions. I can see where you're coming from but don't equate what may or may not be going on on your yard with what happens elsewhere. Whether you mean to or not you do sound like you're questioning what people here are doing with their horses and people are bound to respond to that :)

[Guest]

(hangs head in shame) I'm sorry Wally (which incidently is the name of one of my cats) I'll be a good girl now:o (shuffles off to the stairs to sit on the naughty stair for 22mins, one for every year of my life)

[Wally]

If they made me sit on the naughty step it'd be next century before I was allowed off! :D :D :D

Take heart, it could be worse I know someone who does horses feet with an angle grinder!

There are barefooters telling me that if only I got the right trim my ponies could go barefoot all the time, I know they can't on our roads. I get bored of that, they don't know me, my ponies or the roads they have to trot 10 miles on.

Barefoot is a very strong topic as is hunting.......anyone go hunting barefoot :D :D :D (slapps own hand and joins Bobbin on the naughty step)

[Maddison's girl]

[QUOTE=Wally]
Take heart, it could be worse I know someone who does horses feet with an angle grinder!QUOTE]

Bl**dy hell :eek:

[Guest]

Wally you are bad and you have just dribbled all over my keyboard

[Wally]

It is not unknown for the wood work kit to come out to do horses feet not far from where I live. It is also a common idea that if you let the feet grow long and flared it helps them walk over boggy ground!

and you have just dribbled all over my keyboard
not guilty, I hope it was amy username's sake!

[Guest]

not guilty, I hope it was amy username's sake!

Huh?

I was actually refering to my cat Wally who dribbled all over my keyboard

[MelanieD]

While I agree that clueless people trimming their own horses or other people's horses are not good I think telling people they shouldn't ever trim their own horses without qualifications is going too far. I've never been on a course but have seen a qualified trimmer work a lot and have read a lot. This afternoon I gave my horse a pedicure, no harm at all done, hooves are balanced and she's happier for getting rid of that bit of excess length and flare. She is trimmed by a qualified EP every 5 weeks do them myself sometimes in between 'cos they grow so fast even with miles of road work every day. Since I had my rasp out anyway someone else at the yard asked me to do hers, feet were a bit long and she had a nasty chip and crack on a bit of flare that could have done some damage if she'd stood on a stone or something wrong, farrier couldn't come out for a week or two. So gave pony a pedicure, she's happy and sound and probably more comfortable than before with that bit of foot sorted. And it earned me a bottle of wine :p :D I wouldn't suggest the majority of horse owners do their own but plenty are doing a good job of it.

And on the 'if you need boots you might as well shoe' comments.. shoes were doing a good job of messing up my horse's feet, most cases it's the application not the shoes that are a problem, but with WLD, very weak heels and cracks the presence of a shoe was doing nothing good. My horse is now sound and works fine on all surfaces and occasionally wears hoof boots if she's feeling really overworked without any harm done to her feet from the boots. She wore the boots a lot more early on but doesn't need them often anymore. I dread to think what state those hooves would be in by now if I hadn't gone for barefoot and boots because a very good remedial farrier was failing to sort them out in shoes, partly because it'd got to the point that the shoes were doing more harm than good.

[Wally]

Well, I am guilty of shoeing my own horses! trimming them, rasping their teeth, injecting them.

I am not a farrier, trimmer or vet or EDT.

I have to say that had I let a very well known farrier, (he was farrier to an international team, not saying who, would give the game away) keep shoeing my horse he'd have been lamed and totally done in the space of 6 months, I took him back to a shoeing blacksmith, who put him right. SO just because they are well known farriers isn't always the answer.

As you get older and crustier, you learn to trust your own instincts, It's like you first baby, you know you'll kill it by allowing it to suck its own fingers, then the second one is allowed to do all sorts of things the first one wasnt! AS long as you keep watching, looking and learning and questioning we won;t go far wrong.

[FRED]

Quote:I know that you all think that 'natural horsemanship' is the way forward! Well im sorry to disagree but i think it is a shambles!

why oh why is such nonsense tolerated, lots of valid points,you are joking.

[Tots N Dots]

actually I agree with some of your 1st post, it was the way it is worded that I found offensive thats all,
I personally wouldnt let someone with 2 days training trim my horses feet, I understand that you are having your say about the people on your yard that are not doing this "correctly" but your post also slates horses being barefoot even though you have 2 barefoot of your own, and also Natural Horsemanship in general. its often difficult via text to ascertain someones tone.

[Kate F.]

Don't want to go into the pros and cons of barefoot, but would like to point out that barefoot is nothing whatever to do with what is usually termed natural horsemanship.

Natural horsemanship is an approach to training. People who practise NH (in any of it many forms) may or may not opt for barefoot trimming, treeless saddles, or bitless brides - just as barefoot, treeless and bitless are options sometimes chosen by people using other training methods.

I am an NH trainer. My horses live in stables, turned out all day. They are shod, they have treed saddles and bitted bridles. (They can go bitless too. I like them to be able to do both - but that's a personal choice, nothing to do with the training principles. Some NH schools of thought feel at least the ability to go bitless it is a requirement of the principles, but a lot don't.).

There are valid arguements on all sides of the barefoot issue - but please don't confuse it further by mixing it up with natural horsemanship. (Life is confusing and confused enough already!! :D :D )

[Crystal Fire]

Absolutely Kate. What has natural horsemanship got to do with barefoot trimming?
Rebecca00, I think if you stopped putting quite so many !!! in your posts then maybe people wouldn't feel so shouted at? :D
As far as I'm concerned, if you pay someone who has done a 2 day course to trim your horse, then you want your head tested. As for the Farrier's Council, they may well get involved in this. It's just the sort of thing they are looking for to strengthen the case for all hoofcare to be regulated by the FRC.
I would contact the body that trained this lady and tell them what she's doing. I can't imagine that they have told her she is ready to be out there training other people's horses.

[jenren!!]

Well its obvious isnt it, people automatically presume barefoot is 'natural' (which it is) and therefore think it is 'natural horsemanship'.

I think there's a difference between the two IMO.

Jenny xx

[Kate F.]

Well its obvious isnt it, people automatically presume barefoot is 'natural' (which it is) and therefore think it is 'natural horsemanship'.

I think there's a difference between the two IMO.

Jenny xx

Well, I suppose strictly speaking, trimming is "unnatural" - naturally horses would be on the move over mixed terrain all day, and their hooves would wear down accordingly and not need trimming! :D

The one that cracks me up is the people whose horses have feet not really suitable for barefoot, who insist on taking the metal shoes off because they are "unnatural!, then put the synthetic ones on instead - because somehow synthetic is supposed to be more "natural" than metal!!

[Wally]

Bad feet and teeth kill horses in the wild, they DON'T trim them down themselves, they grow awry and lame the horse, the predators catch them or they cannot walk far enough to get the food they need, become totally immobile and die.

There are hill ponies I have seen here and inspite of having hard rocks and roads to walk on their feet do not "naturally" keep themselves in trim. We have to mount resuce missions into the hill to find these poor unfortunate creatures and trim their feet up for them.

[MelanieD]

As for the Farrier's Council, they may well get involved in this. It's just the sort of thing they are looking for to strengthen the case for all hoofcare to be regulated by the FRC.

The FRC IMO has no business regulating barefoot trimmers, they need to get their own house in order before they start trying to expand what they control. There are far too many rubbish farriers around that the FRC do nothing to regulate, on the rare occasions they bother disciplining anyone it's usually for their behaviour rather than poor work and is generally a bit of pointless wrist slapping :rolleyes:

The one that cracks me up is the people whose horses have feet not really suitable for barefoot, who insist on taking the metal shoes off because they are "unnatural!, then put the synthetic ones on instead - because somehow synthetic is supposed to be more "natural" than metal!!

I think by natural they are looking at how the hoof is allowed to function. Hoof boots allow the hoof to function normally where shoes don't even though the materials used in either are not naturally found on the end of a horse's leg. Some plastic glue on type shoes can be useful in some cases but as far as I know there isn't any that are good enough to be a permanent replacement for a metal shoe if you want something attached to the hoof 24/7.

One of the reasons that applied equine podiatry (KC LaPierre method) doesn't use the wild hoof as a model is that there's the problem of which wild hoof to look at. There's a huge variety of hoof shapes among wild horses from mustangs living on rocky ground with amazing hooves to ponies living in boggy areas in the UK with terrible feet, and many variations according to the environment the horses are in in between those.

[Horsesarelife]

Barefoot is a very strong topic as is hunting.......anyone go hunting barefoot :D :D :D

I'm not getting into this debate
... but I have :D 3 out of the 4 horses we took were barefoot and they all coped fine. :)

[Wally]

to ponies living in boggy areas in the UK with terrible feet

Nothing wrong with the general foot structure or integrity of ponies living in boggy land, their feet are as hard as any mustang. Hill ponies have access to raods and still thier feet wear in funny ways depending what the Almighty gave them to start with.

Mine manage barefoot for 8 moths of the year. until the training trally gets going and then no foot can keep pace with the wear.

[Bronya]

I have to say that I think this argument's gone on a while....

The original poster did post a rather inflamatory post, which looked like it was written in a moment of anger and/or frustration. So do the other posts on this forum posted by that person, on that day to do with barefoot/Natural Horsemanship. I think that needs to be recognised. How would any of us feel in that situation and with a lack of experience of GOOD trimming and trimmers?

Everyone on here knows where they stand regarding barefoot/shod and why, and no one usually has a go at anyone else for it. On this board everyone obviously loves and cares for their horses to the best of their ability and would never subject them to pain or discomfort willingly. None of us would use a bad trimmer, or a bad farrier, bad vet, bad trainer. If people on here choose to trim their horse's feet themselves, I'd be willing to bet they know what they're doing!

Shoes were invented because horses used to do hours and hours of work a day, far in excess of what we could even imagine. It was enough to wear down their horn and without shoes they would have been lame and unable to work. These days few horses do enough work to actually need shoes. Some people choose to go without, some horses need to go without for reasons of navicular or other problems, some keep them just in case, and some horses really do need them because they actually do enough work to warrant it. I don't think anyone is really going to argue with that, so let's all be friends and stop arguing. Please?

[MelanieD]

There's nothing wrong as such with the hooves of ponies living in boggy land just from living on that kind of ground, but hooves do adapt to their environment. There's usually less wear on softer surfaces, more chipping to get rid of length instead (a bit of WLD can actually help with self trimming rather than be a big problem) wet hooves are more likely to flare. A horse/pony whose feet are adapted to living on soft ground 24/7 won't have the toughness (mostly inner wall not outer wall, and it's more toughness than hardness) or growth rate to immediately cope with lots of movement on hard ground without wearing the feet down, though given time the hooves can adapt to harder ground.

[Bay Mare]

I have had horses all of my life and i think these 'natural people' need to see the damaged that they are doing!!

I haven't had time to read the whole thread but will when I get the time (it's long!).

I would, however, invite you to meet my horse who is, to a certain extent raised 'naturally' these days. She is far from damaged. She has wonderful feet, she doesn't have sore spots or atrophy from her saddle and I've used NH to overcome the problems caused by the 'traditional' ways of bringing her on!!!

She has a treeless saddle, she lives out and is barefoot. I use NH (predominantly IH with Mark Rashid, Michael Peace and others plus a bit of common sense thrown in). My EP is extremely intelligent and well qualified and knows more about trims that my old farrier did.

Whilst I agree with your points in principle I would say that there are horses being damaged by people from all forms of 'training', both 'traditional' and 'NH'. I am against people going out, reading a book and setting about trimming, working with problems horses etc as much as you (one of the reasons I'm against PNH is that it's DVD based training which I don't agree with unless backed up by qualified instruction/supervision). I would say, however, that you need to look into these 'strange' ways a bit more before you slag them off! There's a lot that can be said to be wrong with some 'traditional' ways too.

I just love an educated argument :)

[Bay Mare]

All im saying is dont start triming your horses feet! Leave it to someone who knows what they are doing!


and you think that we don't know that already?

Have a rant about the spods at your yard, fine, but don't come on having a rant about NH & barefoot and not expect a few replies :rolleyes:

I would suggest (as has already been suggested in more than a few of the posts that I've read) that the people at your yard aren't doing things the correct way. My mare has been barefoot for a year now and is more than happy to hack out for 2 hours at a time. I took her for a walk up our very stony lane today without an ouchie.

To address your comment about mollycoddling ... isn't putting shoes on mollycoddling because you're actually 'hiding' some of the structural problems of the feet which can be caused by having shoes on?

Anyway ... I'm off, bye :)

[ChrissieW]

Haven't read all the thread (too long), but to the OP - I would strongly suggest that before you post such an erratic rant again, you actually do your homework and find out what you are talking about ;)

As for your comment about the use of boots and maybe the horse should be shod - have you actually researched exactly what damage shoes can do to a foot? You are basically putting a static immoveable object onto a moveable living organism, so it really won't make much difference that the shoes are "light", they will still be immoveable and boots are a much better compromise if needed.

Honestly, give it a go, do some research, you might be pleasantly surprised! :)

For the record, some of the more legible bits of your post, I actually agree with. People should not go trimming other people's horses after 2 days training or even their own and NH principles can be abused as badly as traditional ones, but that doesn't make the tools bad, it just makes their application wrong in that instance.

Don't tar everyone with the same brush!

[Wally]

have you actually researched exactly what damage shoes can do to a foot? You are basically putting a static immoveable object onto a moveable living organism,

Have you done your homework on the principles of shoeing?, If a foot is shod properly it will allow for the natural expansion and contraction of the hoof as they work.

I have done my homework, not only by the book but in practice. My horses, in heavy work cannot manage without shoes in summer.

[Yann]

Surely if shoes didn't affect and restrict the internal function of the foot then horses wouldn't be sore when they were taken off? Just a thought. Unless you have a competent and conscientious farrier the feet invariably end up distorted to one degree or another. However shoeing hardworking horses is fine and sensible and nobody with any common sense is going to say barefoot is best for every situation or is going to work in every situation.

Unfortunately not all shoeing is good shoeing when you just have to look around the average showground to see some pretty poor sights in that department.

[Wally]

However shoeing hardworking horses is fine and sensible and nobody with any common sense is going to say barefoot is best for every situation or is going to work in every situation.


But I am constantly bullied by barefoot converts, I go barefoot 70% of the time, with no transition problems. I am told "with the proper trim your horses could do the work"

Why won't they beleive me???

[MelanieD]

But I am constantly bullied by barefoot converts, I go barefoot 70% of the time, with no transition problems. I am told "with the proper trim your horses could do the work"

Why won't they beleive me???

Trim, environment and conditioning all have to be right to get a horse doing hard work barefoot. The most perfect trim can only shape the hooves and encourage them you grow the shape they should be, environment and conditioning are more important for getting horses doing hard work barefoot. But at the same time a bad trim (too short, not enough done, not balanced, weight all on outer wall etc) can make all the conditioning etc a lot less useful. I think it'd be pretty safe to ignore anyone telling you they could do the work barefoot if the trim was different without ever seeing how they are trimmed at the moment.

It's usually only unhealthy/damaged hooves or ones that have been in shoes a long time (years rather than months) and have adapted to being shod a bit too much that have transition problems.

I can have some overenthusiastic barefooter tendancies sometimes but think it sounds like you have the ideal solution for your horses. Shoe your own so you know they are done well and can do them when needed not when you can eventually persuade a farrier to show up, and they get a break from shoes which is very good for keeping hooves healthy long term. Even if it was possible for them to do the work barefoot with some changes to trim and more importantly environment I can't see why you'd want to change the way they live all winter and the hassle of conditioning so many horses when you already have a way of dealing with their feet which seems ideal for your situation.

[Bay Mare]

But I am constantly bullied by barefoot converts, I go barefoot 70% of the time, with no transition problems. I am told "with the proper trim your horses could do the work"

Why won't they beleive me???


Cos they don't know you :D


If you told me that it isn't working then I'd believe you (creep, creep ;) ). Unfortunately some of the time the problems really are down to the owner whether it be not considering that there has to be a transition period and carrying on gunning around the countryside in their usual fashion, thinking that they can trim their own horse and making them sore or just that the trim isn't very good.

I guess that it's a case of tarring everyone with the same brush :)

[Crystal Fire]

A small aside. While we may be of the opinion that the Farriers Council should set their house in order before trying to regulate barefoot trimmers... They are actively trying to get involved, and to be honest when you hear tales like this about 2 day course people out and trimming for money - well something needs to be done. My farrier told me that they have been told to be alert to any horse they consider to be in discomfort due to barefoot trimming by the owner, and report them to the RSPCA. I was on a course last week where there was a Jackson trained barefoot trimmer, and between her and the people on the course they knew of 3 owners reported to RSPCA recently because it was alleged they were causing suffering to their horses due to their trimming.
Is this an opportunity that some have spotted after the recent court case with Fiona Dean? Maybe some feel that make the RSPCA's life difficult enough and they will start to lobby for an over-arching body to regulate and police barefoot trimming? Who knows?
My horses are barefoot trimmed, and I keep them tidy between times, so I'm for barefoot when done properly. Don't shoot the messenger, I'm just telling you what I've been told.

[Yann]

Why won't they beleive me???

I for one believe you:D

If Shetland had the same climate as Arizona perhaps you might stand a chance, perhaps not. A wet climate and environment is one of the biggest drawbacks in making a success of working a horse without shoes, and possibly why shoeing is almost universal in this country but not as much somewhere like the USA. The wet softens feet and horn and encourages infection, and if you can't control that then it's always going to be a struggle to keep any hard working horse going without shoes or boots. There are many other variables that will affect the chances of success, and some of them are also outside the control of the horse owner.

[Wally]

If our council stopped putting such huge and large amounts of chippings on the roads that might hlep too!
I suppose it keeps the cars on the road........sometimes, depending on how much they've had to drink!

[rinzarider]

I am in sympathy with Rebeccas feelings and at bottom I DO agree with her.

However there is NO SUCH THING as 'Natural Horsemanship'. Its ALL about as 'un-natural' as can be-so whats the point of scrapping over a silly title.

There are different and various ways of schooling training and enjoying ones horse (s) and none are more 'right' or 'wrong' than any other-if they are done correctly-but none of them are 'natural'. It ceased to be in any way 'natural' the day and time that someone, in some forgotten era long past, had the idea that there was more to the horse than being on the menu.
Barefoot and its various --erm-degress of trimming is nothing to do with any school of 'horsemanship'-and I am in total agreement with the arguement that there are far too many people taking far too much upon themselves with their trimming knives.

[Yann]

I am in total agreement with the arguement that there are far too many people taking far too much upon themselves with their trimming knives

I'd like to know where this epidemic of clueless DIY trimmers are because I've not come across any. There are quite a few people with unshod horses on here and with very few exceptions they all use either farriers or trained and qualified trimmers to do their horses feet.

[rinzarider]

I'd like to know where this epidemic of clueless DIY trimmers are because I've not come across any. There are quite a few people with unshod horses on here and with very few exceptions they all use either farriers or trained and qualified trimmers to do their horses feet.

Perhaps you don't get around as much as I do.


Oh-and YES--I HAVE fox-hunted unshod.

[Yann]

Obviously not.

[LokiSofi]

Well I have both of mine barefoot and Ted was also barefoot (though when i'd got him he was hot shod) and Hayz will tell you what hard feet he has.
I've also recently removed Daks shoes (Full TB) he had horrendous feet and I was paying for a new set of shoes to get put on every other day:eek: so I asked my farrier if he could cope without, he said try him so I have been and Daks' feet are harder, they aren't crumbling or splitting as much as they were either. When we go out hacking I put a pair of easy boots on him just because I don't want any stones hurting his frog or anything.
I don't like my horses wearing shoes simply because I have read terrible articles where constant hammering of nails into their feet can cause long term damage on their legs, Of course there are horse who probably do NEED shoes but as long as my horses can get away with being barefoot and they aren't in pain etc then I'm going to keep them that way. It's better for them and more ''natural'' in my opinion

[FRED]

We were talking about this at teh weekend{Dakota is barefoot,but shoes will never be ruled out and I pat his feet when checking them just to get him used to things that may have to be done in the future},
I have met horse 30 plus years old who have been shoed all their lives,so I think there is more to it than just hammering shoes on, because how did these 30 plus year old horse stay sound.
I enjoy seeing the Fell ponies too in Cumbria and their feet always look very good,I guess they cover a lot more ground than most horses here.
:)
I forgot to mention,Dakotas feet had never been trimed before I got him, they look great now,but I would never rule out shoes.
We were particularly carefull who trimed his feet{he has quiet a reputation does D,but he has never ever let us see it}and he was a star for the farrier.

[Rowena]

WOW! such incredible passion going on here!!! :D :D :D
..and for which reason?
an excellent one actually, each and every one of us dealing with what can bast be described as The Renaissance of the Horse.

It is a marvellous (but unsettling) thing. A time during which everything to do with horse-keeping is under re-evaluation...and this will ultimately be for the better, because of our genuine love of the horse.

Even when we disagree, we are like branches on the same tree fighting amongst ourselves :rolleyes:
We all love our horses and all believe we are doing the best by them. Occasionally we clash with someone whose ego insists that they are right on some matter and this mostly clashes with another's ego who insists that they are wrong on some matter!

But if you pay close attention, you will find that most people are just wanting to do the best thing by their horses. We are not satisfied with anything less, and it is good that we rant and rail about it, as this will ensure that this wonderful Renaissance is being steered in the right direction. If we were all 'ho-hum' about it all then how else would the wrong stuff (like Strasser!) be routed out?

I follow the Equine Podiatry route, and don't mind in the least if folk come up with a critique of the method. It is the most water-tight method I know about, but your critique may just shed new light on something hitherto unnoticed. I would welcome this :D because I want the best for my horse.

So all I am trying to say is this: remember, shod or unshod... horse lovers are all ultimately on the same side, pushing for the same ends. And its happening! just take a look all around you...the Renaissance is underway.

And whenever you bump heads with those who's egos declare that they are right then remember that the feisty debates which come as a result of this, are the necessary 'test of fire' that will enable all of us to sort the good from the rubbish:
All good is that which benefits the horse (no excuses). And this includes all shoeing practices. It is good to recognize that shoeing is good for the rider, enabling him/her to use the horse beyond the present capabilities of their horses feet. And this is OK, it really is much better to do this rather than wearing their feet to a stub, just so as to make a point about being barefoot!

All rubbish is that which hurts the horse (no excuses) There is absolutely NO reason that can justify such an angle. So if ANYONE attempts to justify soreing a horse for any reason...THIS IS RUBBISH!
When we hurt our horses in any manner, we have made a mistake. And this of course applies to anything - not just being barefoot.

In fact we are all looking for the ever improved, radiantly healthy, forever sound, content and co-operative Equine.
So Comrades! :D
if any of you have any advise on how to get all of the above (right now)... I feel I speak for everyone here: we are listening :D :D :D

[LindaAd]

There is one lady at my yard who took it upon herself to do a TWO DAY course on how to trim her horse! (uummmmmm!:confused: ) This is fine if its just her horse that shes doing! But shes now charging people about £25 to pare their feet which she does once a week?????:confused: (shouldn't that be every 8 weeks?) The horses are lame, have sensitive feet, their feet are uneven a few of them have not got a matching pair, quite a few are having a problem with their White line.

When my farrier came to shoe my horse he saw some of the horse feet and was disgusted with them! Farriers have to train for years and years to get to be able to pare and shoe horses feet and now you can train for TWO DAYS and suddenly you can be qualified! WHEN WILL THE FARRIER COUNCIL PUT A STOP TO THIS!:D
These people on my yard my talk the talk, but at the end of the day they just recite from books!




I don't know if this has already been pointed out (for once I haven't read all through the thread) but it's worth pointing out again: Doing anything for money to the feet of any horse except your own, by anyone except a vet or a registered farrier, in the UK is ILLEGAL and should be reported.

No, sorry - I've just checked. Apparently it only counts as farriery if you're putting shoes on or preparing the foot for shoeing.

http://www.farrier-reg.gov.uk/

But it also says this:

[I]"However, horse owners should be aware that although, simple trimming and rasping of horses’ feet is allowed by lay persons under the Act to permit maintenance of foals’ and other unshod horses’ feet. Where more radical trimming and reshaping of horses’ feet is contemplated there is the potential for creating severe lameness. Experience has indicated this is particularly so where such ‘therapy’ is not undertaken by qualified farriers or veterinary surgeons.


Incorrect trimming of horses’ hooves over an extended period can also cause lameness. Horses suffering from significant foot disease such as laminitis should in any case be under the care of a veterinary surgeon. This is to ensure that appropriate treatment is carried out and that any necessary medication is prescribed, the prime object being the welfare of the animal concerned.

Both the practice of radical foot trimming by lay persons resulting in significant lameness, and/or failure to provide veterinary attention under these circumstances may engender suffering and consequent criminal proceedings under the Protection of Animals Act 1911 or the Protection of Animals (Scotland) Act 1912"
[/]

http://frc.gotadsl.co.uk:7000/frc/FAQ.asp?Page=horseownersfaqs&ID=13

So it seems to me that what she is doing is still probably illegal, even though it's not "farriery".

Linda

[mu0ljk]

Rowena, what a good reply! I'm not going to reply myself as I think enough people have - but just had to comment on your post Rowena! :)

[Ptaty70]

Well, reading through this thread (crikey, it took me a lifetime!) has certainly helped me. Rowena is right, we are all working for the greater good of our ponies' welfare which is great. Most people were agreeing, just not with what they believed the OP was saying.

I went barefoot 3 weeks ago, not even knowing about all the arguments pro/con. I had no strong feelings about it, he just isn't ridden on any hard surfaces and isn't in hard work and has strong feet, so I asked myself why I was shoeing him.

I was going to see how it turned out and if necessary return to shoeing. I am pleased to say that there has been no 'footiness', not even at the beginning and I am very pleased!

I think that some people's version of NH is like some parents' views of 'kinder parenting' (oh by crikey, i have opened a can of worms here!)... there does, at the end of the day, need to be some discipline.. maybe not physical, but at least so the horse/child understand who is higher in the hierarchy. Horses walking all over their owners and doing what they please is not NH, which I believe is more of an understanding of the horse's needs... not letting them run ramshod over you. It's all about respect - reciprocal

People who think that horses should just do as they wish (as in the OP), are heading for disaster!

Rowena, i am glad you bumped this thread as I was not around for a while and found it very interesting!

[tazzle22]

Well said Rowena .. (we need an "applause" icon here)



have discussed the "natural" topic many times and although its only the addition of a few letters I prefer to define what I personally do as "naturalISTIC" horse management , in that is not completely natural for the horse .... but its as close as I personally can manage to get it.


since the topic started with feet as the main point ...

Like Wally and some others I rasp and otherwise maintain Taz's feet myself .... with checks every few months from a farrier who has not had to do anything at all to her in over a year ( and even then its only nipping off a little bit.) If I want to do more than her hoof growth dictates then I use boots ( my preference as they can be taken off after we each trip out).

I am not evangelical about it and do not think it is "cruel" to shoe provided its well done ......... but I think that there are many horses shod that really dont need to be.

[oldbushy]

CMR calm down; Rebecca is only expressing what she has seen of it It is like in all things a lot of people take it on without being fully informed of what they're doing. And yes it's a shame as it gives NH a bad image. Don't take it so personally. Look at it. Can I learn anything from these comments as I'm sure Rebecca is learning from the responses; I think Wally explains it best about barefoot;' It suits some horses and not others for the reasons he explains; I've had a mixture of both types of horses. Some needing shoes' some never having shoes. But although barefoot has been around forever it is good to be brought into the limelight as I have met so many adults who have always shod and kept shod any horse they have ever had without ever having questioned why they do it.
No offence meant to anyone otherwise you'll have to come out to Australia and tell me off in person and while you are here you can help me with my 2 horses (joking) Kindenst regards Oldbushy:)

[Bay Mare]

But although barefoot has been around forever it is good to be brought into the limelight as I have met so many adults who have always shod and kept shod any horse they have ever had without ever having questioned why they do it.


Yep, that was me! Until, that was, I saw a FEMALE 'doing' a horse's feet at our yard (strange in itself) and NOT putting shoes on afterwards. "Well weird" I thought but being naturally nosey edged closer to have a look. Inspired by what I was hearing and seeing I went about researching this *new* barefoot fad thing! This woman seemed to be intelligent and was certainly talking a lot of sense. Mmmm ... maybe these barefoot trimmers weren't so bad after all!

The day Saffy's shoes came off I was horrified, I had left her in the 'tender' care of our 'ok' farrier. Apart from a split up the front of her hoof they looked ok in shoes. I was soon to find that 'ok' wasn't good enough, her feet were unbalanced which had given them no choice but to split. As I learned more I became even more horrified at how little I knew and at how little I'd been involved with her feet apart from regular farrier visits and picking them out regularly. My trainer noticed the difference in her movement immediately, she had much more movement especially through her shoulders. He has since said that it was probably a very good thing that I did for her (and his horses aren't barefoot!).

She's been barefoot now for about 18 months and is doing really well. Although I'd never say never to shoes I hope that I never need to put them on her or any other horses that I own ever again. Barefoot isn't for everyone though for a variety of reasons, some owner related, some horse related. I do, however, expect people who criticise my decision to criticise me from an educated viewpoint :)

[Sol_Gemma]

Rebecca00 does the inland revenue know she has earnings from trimming horses? Maybe they would like to know and that might help put a stop to it. Would she need to have some kind of liability insurance also??

[Rowena]

[QUOTE=FRED;948376] I have met horse 30 plus years old who have been shoed all their lives,so I think there is more to it than just hammering shoes on, because how did these 30 plus year old horse stay sound.
QUOTE]

Just out of interest... ;)

you are quite right! There is more to it than just hammering shoes on.
And it is precisely that something more that is the crux of the matter in the Barefoot movement.

One of the reasons that shoes can be a problem is that the foot does not receive the same stimulus in a shoe, as it does au natural. And it is this stimulus which promotes the growth of healthy structures in the foot. And these healthy structures grow stronger, and in turn produce the proper suspension and support necessary for sound - bare - feet.

There really is nothing woo-woo about it.
Anyone had a broken arm?, worn a cast? ..
and did you find your arm somewhat weaker after the cast was removed? Well this is the same for the horses feet. The shoe acts as a cast, supporting feet that are not currently up to the job in hand. Only problem is... they gradually become weaker.

The whole point about responsible barefoot, is that you must have all the necessary know-how (plus tons of sensible theory to inform all your decisions - assumptions about 'wild' horses simply aren't enough ) when you plan a course of rehabilitation that produces positive results without ANY PAIN whatsoever.

Truly getting horses feet fit, strong, and sound barefoot is a worthy skill, but not one to be taken on by anyone without at least a year of proper theoretical training (not to mention the practical training).

But when handled appropriately, it is a worthy skill (for the good of the horse).

[Spotty_Pony]

I agree with some parts... I think that ppl who want to trim feet should be totally qualifiied- tell the farrier council!

But I have to say that I think that Natural horsemanship is a mirical worker! Lol!

Cya! Good luck!

[Esther]

I think I'm coming from the same point of view as Wally, here, only over the terrain that we ride over we tend to run out of foot at about 20-25 miles. But all the while they have enough foot, we don't shoe them. They flip in and out of shoes quite easily without taking a duff step, and their feet aren't riddled with white line disease or anything when shoes come off. The reason - we have a very good farrier and we don't let them go much more than 4 weeks between shoes in the summer so the angles don't get too far off where they should be. And yes, I will tidy the feet up myself between farrier visits.

I'm not a great fan of putting different methods of doing horses into labelled boxes, either, so that you have to take it all or nothing. I'd rather it was about each individual horse owner/keeper treating each horse as an individual and doing the right thing for the individual horse.

I just wanted to comment on this thread because of the references to hoof boots.

Hoof boots have improved 100% over recent years, to the point where they are now a viable alternative to shoes for the trail horse. One of ours can't be shod at all and he's used hoof boots for quite a few years now if we're going somewhere that he needs protection. And I'm currently experimenting with a set of Old Mac G2s for one of my other guys. I started out witha very open mind and have been extremely impressed. They are lighter, less clompy, extremely easy/quick to put on and fit, and don't slow him down in the slightest :rolleyes: ;) The breakover is good too - the equivalent to the rolled toes that he has if he's shod. It's like putting a set of Nikes on him. The jury is still out as to whether they will cope with longer rides, but I've asked quite a lot of them already and not had a problem.

[mayoguinness]

Seems like everyones anti strasser!! Anyone for it?