First Steps in dressage - critique

[KateWooten]

JoePony and I did our first dressage test ever in May - we did Intro A and B - more basic than anything you have in the UK I think - just walk and trot. He's a 4 yr old arab x qh rescue pony I bought for next to nothing last year ( I know, I know - it's not relevant, but I can't help braggin on how far this little fellow has come from the scared, shy skinny little boy he was a year ago ! ). So we did this intro test, and scored 60% ish - we were adequate at everything, and had one score 7. Since then I've had his back worked on twice, sorted out his saddle fit, and learnt to ride !

I don't have any good pics of the actual test because my DH videoed it instead, but here's how he looked at a halt in the practice ring - imagine this braced and hollowed outline at walk and trot, and a permanent bend the wrong way and you've got a fairly accurate picture :eek:

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f135/joePony/badHalt.jpg

Ok, so fast forward two months, and after going back to a walk for ages and ages to build up his back muscles, we've been trotting for a few weeks now, and have cantered 4 times now. Yesterday the buck was all gone, and although he's still a bit bracy in the upward transition, he managed to relax and complete a full circuit in canter, and for the first time I was able to ask for a little bend to the inside. He's beginning to find his balance, and not worry so much about the saddle hurting him.

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f135/joePony/canterLeft.jpg
I think his canter has potential - I have to sit up, look up and I really need to think about him getting behind the vertical at various points ... but, isn't he the most beautiful little $500 pony you've ever seen, gosh I need to stop braggin on him but I can't get over how lucky I am to have found him.

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f135/joePony/legyield.jpg
Here he is leg-yielding at a walk. I have a big hope that if I get practiced enough I can start 'refining' the aids I'm using. Because he's a young horse, just backed last summer, and I'm new to dressage, and training, I tend to make my requests big and clear - not strong but if I'm talking to his hindquarters, my leg is way back behind the girth. Hopefully by the next dressage show, I'll be able to use less obvious cues.

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f135/joePony/trotLeft.jpg
Here he's trotting - more behind the vertical, I'm afraid. I've had 2 dressage lessons, and my instructor is not worried about it at this stage - I just have to push him on a little more whenever he does this. I've heard from other sources that it can be a bad problem. What do you think ?

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f135/joePony/trotBend.jpg
I like the pony in this pic - he's beautifully bent. I think I'm busy 'bending' him on the 20m circle with my outside leg way back again - I think that's why my right leg looks about a foot shorter than the left - I hope so anyway.

So, what do you think ? I'm a complete dressage novice, but I'm really pleased with him so far. Any tips, pointers, what to do next ... ? I started him more in the western tradition, with early lateral work, starting on the ground, so he thinks nothing of moving his butt, shoulders or ribcage one way or another off my leg. The next dressage show I can go to is in September, there are only 2 a year :( so, although by his scores on the last test, he's not ready to move up, I think I will want him to do a couple of training level tests, and maybe have a go at a first level. Is 3 tests to much in one day ?

[CMR]

Awww, he's gorgeous! :D He has definite potential as a nice little Dressage pony. I think you're doing a great job, keep it up. :)

Being behind the vertical at this stage is no big deal. Once he starts to push from behind more, he'll come onto the bit properly.

[cvb]

Any tips, pointers, what to do next ... ?

Can I ask you to take a look at your hands in each of the photos ? Are they working as a pair ? What effect will they be having on the bit in his mouth ? And what will that be asking his head to do ?

Its just this is something I've been working on recently as my hands were not being a pair :( and its amazing how much difference it makes to the feel. Well actually its not that amazing but it is enlightening ;)

The reason why I've picked up on it is your question about his head and if/when it is behind the vertical. Whether that is "bad" depends a lot on what is going on in his mouth at the time. My current instructor (who's been pointing out my own non-pair of hands) talks about channelling the horse, and directing them forward and round. Thats going to come back to the vertical as you develop - but if they are coming back and up at you, it won't. And then its harder to correct

IMHO

[Mehitabel]

he looks lovely.

as CVR says, the BTV at this stage is because he is still on the forehand. look at that trotting pic and he looks slightly downhill, withers just level or slightly lower than his bum. his hind legs aren't taking long strides yet and going far enough under him. but at his age and with his history, that is absolutely fine. as his back strengthens and he can lift it, the back end can come further underneath and lift the front end, and then he will find it easier to stay in front of the vertical as he takes more weight behind.

[cvb]

oh - and I should have said - you can *feel* when they are round and behind the vertical but because their back is round and lifted, versus when they are backing off the contact and the back is not lifting...

[KateWooten]

ok, go over that again for me.. slowly ! My hands are most definitely not working as a pair, agreed ! At the moment, they are at least following the movement of his head and maintaining a soft feel without letting the reins go slack, or jerking him in the mouth ... and that's a big step forward for me - I've never tried to maintain a contact before. I know I'm not using my outside rein at all effectively - and I know the dressage lady expects me to correct him from falling through his shoulder with my rein - whereas my automatic repsonse is to use my opposite leg to encourage his hindquarters to catch up - which is not the same thing !

Can you go over this with more detail for me please:
..them forward and round. Thats going to come back to the vertical as you develop - but if they are coming back and up at you, it won't.

you lost me at the end (I'm not the brightest spark ! ) The horse will come back to the vertical as he uses his back end more, rounds up and pushes forward ? ... but "if they are coming back and up at you" -- my hands ? ...

I think my hands are all over the place, but they are at least starting to respond to the horse - it's a start !

[Trewsers]

I think he's gorgeous:D You must be very pleased with him. Sorry I can't offer any advice, I'm not qualified to comment on position or anything seriously dressagey!!

[elise]

Yay another rider that is compensating to get their horse to do what they want! Just started working with my horse on dressage, he's 13 years old but pretty green when it comes to moving his body. I try and use huge cues as well but in my case i was riding with my outside leg in front of the girth for the longest time to get him to no fall out on his shoulder!

Oh and the hand thing, I totally have that problem as well. I'm so busy trying to push and pull the horse to bend or do whatever it is I'm asking, I've always got my hands everywhich way they shouldn't be. I'm struggling with the 70% on the outside rein thing the most.

But wow is it paying off for both me and the horse! Yay for beginning dressage!

[Willingbe]

He looks a super pony and if he's only four then you're both doing very well together.

I notice that in three of the pictures you're looking down and to the left, do you find that you're doing this often? If so it can mean that you're stiff in the right hip. You may find that doing some ground exercises such as pilates will help over come this, if it is a problem.

[KateWooten]

ah - now there's a good point - I hadn't noticed that. I'll find out tomorrow if I've got a habit there - I bet you're correct. My mare is very stiff to the left - so stiff in fact that I have taken her off ridden work, and gone back to in-hand work for a while. She's also 4 but very much less mature mentally and physically than little joePony. I bet part of her stiffness is due to her rider - she's a more sensitive little thing than joseph so any asymmetry on my part will have more effect on her.

Thankyou for saying nice things about him - he really is a super little horse. I suppose at 15hh I should stop calling him a pony - but you know, he's just a little round horse - I think of him as a big pony :) Mare, who is just a little smaller, is just exactly like a tiny horse.

Now, I went away and thought about the uphill/downhill - behind the vertical connection .. and I have learned something !

Take the trotting picture - he is actually heading down a slight slope too, but even if we straighten him up in the photo, he's most definitely on the forehand and 'downhill' :

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f135/joePony/trotLeft.jpg

So, by magic schooling ... if we swing his hindlegs under more, so his butt lowers, and his shoulder raise .......... <<drum roll>> .....

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f135/joePony/trotLeftuphill.jpg

Ta Dah ! He's not behind the vertical any more ! (hmm do you think anyone will notice the badly-photo-shopped trailing hind leg there ? )

But seriously, I do think I've learned something important from your description Mehitabel. I can see why it's not so crucial that he's not behind the vertical and how asking his back end to engage more will help. I do feel that he's a lot more rounded and working infinitely better than he was a month or so ago.

I'm trying to upload the video of where we started from in May so as you all can see how big of a change it has been but my machine is just too slow to do that :(

Oh, and trewsers ... yes, I love him to bits and just can't stop hugging him - he's such a sweetheart :)

[Tots N Dots]

Oh my he is beautifull :D :D :D
can I be rude and ask what height you are and your inside leg measurement? lol, want to know if thats kind of the size I will look on Pickle ;) if you are similar measurements to me then I will be fine :D :D :D
I am definitely the most unexpert here but I did think that you may be just collapsing your offside hip a little on the very bottom photo to exagerate your aids? which of course at the beginning you have to make them big to make it easy for him, it will all come in time, I am just far to impatient :D
If Pickle looks anything like that next year I will be the proudest mummy out there :D

[BeachRiding]

What a pretty horse! No advice, but good luck with him!

[KateWooten]

Thanks Guys :)

Bev - I'm just scraping 5 ft 2 and joe's around 15hh I think, although I haven't measured him. How tall is Pickle ? So much depends on how they're built - I can look tiny on a 15hh Paint/foundation QH but just perfect on joseph - he's quite narrow.

I didn't get a chance to ride today because the ground is slippy, and I cna't complain about that because we've been totally starved of rain for ages, so I'll have to go check on the eyes and the collapsing hip tomorrow .

[Tots N Dots]

(said with hand over mouth in a muffled kind of way) 14.2hh/14.3hh :(
I am 5'4",
he has a bit of filling out to do yet, he was supposed to be nearer 15.2hh :o

[cvb]

shucks - work does get in the way sometimes - I only just saw this !

ok, go over that again for me.. slowly ! My hands are most definitely not working as a pair, agreed ! At the moment, they are at least following the movement of his head and maintaining a soft feel without letting the reins go slack, or jerking him in the mouth ... and that's a big step forward for me - I've never tried to maintain a contact before. I know I'm not using my outside rein at all effectively - and I know the dressage lady expects me to correct him from falling through his shoulder with my rein - whereas my automatic repsonse is to use my opposite leg to encourage his hindquarters to catch up - which is not the same thing !

Can you go over this with more detail for me please:

OK - if you *follow* the horse you do create a consistent contact - but are you making a space for them to *correct* their own inconsistency and improve at all ? How do you show them that you want them to stretch down and round if you are following their movement the whole time ?

As a practical example - I pulled our fell pony off the field for a lesson as my mare was unsound :( This pony has been slightly one-sided since he had laminitis - improving, but still there. He was not accepting my left rein contact. Now the obvious thing to do might be to follow him with the contact, or ask *more* with that rein. But the instructor got me releasing it - low and behold horse goes soft and straighter....and I also ended up creating the space for him to straighten in to. Instructor did comment that you have to watch for them simply swapping sides on you :rolleyes: but thats down to staying soft and sensitive in the hands/contact :p

But - by being assymetric in the hands, even if its because you are following the horse, you are making the BIT assymetric in the horse's mouth, against its jaw. Which is not really asking them for straightness ;)


you lost me at the end (I'm not the brightest spark ! ) The horse will come back to the vertical as he uses his back end more, rounds up and pushes forward ? ... but "if they are coming back and up at you" -- my hands ? ...


if the *horse* is behind the vertical because they (the horse) are coming back and up at you...

try it yourself - arch (or "overstraighten") your back and tuck your chin in. Now round your back and round your neck... your "nose" would still be behind the vertical but the two things are very different.

[KateWooten]

it has been pointed out to me ... and I'm now hanging my head in shame .... that his new saddle that I've been really really careful to have properlyfitted (and then all the back strengthening building work etc etc droan droan) ... with all of that ... I stiall haven't managed to put the darn thing on properly :o :o :o :o

A quick check of the downhill trot pic and there's no real doubt - his saddle is on too far forward and is impeding the movement of his shoulder :( It's quite obvious in the overbent canter pic too ... actually it's pretty blindingly obvious but it took poohsmate to point it out to me. For a short-backed araby pony, there's a mile of back showing there begind the saddle, and if you trace the action of his upper 'arm' back upwards, the top of his shoulder is clearly underneath the saddle. I think the flaps on a GP saddle can come ever so slightly forward of his shoulder - but not a whacking great 6 inches as is happeneing here.

Well, looking on the bright side ... he did all that big improvement with his rider unable to put his saddle on properly ! OMG - I'll move it back a few inches tomorrow and then by Sunday you can expect us to be in the Olympics :D

I'll go dig out my saddle fit book and read up then take some pics of the saddle on his back tomorrow, and perhaps you can all helpme get it right ?

[KateWooten]

... and ... my left hand is always in front of, and lower than, my right isn't it ? So, there's no way I can begin to correct or work on asymmetry in the pony, since my hands are so asymmetric to start with .. I've no idea really what his head, neck, mouth are doing !

I guess it might be a good idea at this beginning stage, to use markers on the reins so that I can start insisting that I keep my reins the same length, then I'll be able to see where the asymmetry is. Aggghh ... many things to think about !

[casey]

I dont do critiques, but wanted to say what a lovely pony you have there.:)

[Montana]

Hi Kate,

I don't feel like I'm able to critique you, as I'm in a similar position as you and have picked up a lot of useful advice from this thread.

I just wanted to say don't get too critical of yourself, you sound like you're starting to worry you're doing it all wrong! Just look forward to having something new to work on. And look how far you've come:D There's no comparison to the horse in the first photo, what a great change!

I love the leg yield piccie, and how relaxed and focused you both look. For a cheap rescue baby(:p ;) ), he's a really gorgeous boy:) Now do some fine tuning and continue to enjoy and improve the successful work you're already doing.

[cvb]

casey and montana both just prompted to think more closely about what we mean by "critique"... so I looked up some definitions. The one *I* like most is this one

to evaluate something for what was good and what needs to be improved upon.

i.e. a "critique" is not necessarily "critical" (in the sense it sometimes gets used of focusing on the BAD)

that's what I was aiming for, what I always aim for - of course words in a post don't always come across the way you mean !

(p.s. I know no one suggested otherwise, I'm just in a philosophical mood...)

[Rips]

Great pictures :) Looks like a happy little pony - good luck with him.

[casey]

(p.s. I know no one suggested otherwise, I'm just in a philosophical mood...)


Lol:D :D

[Montana]

cvb -


i.e. a "critique" is not necessarily "critical" (in the sense it sometimes gets used of focusing on the BAD)

that's what I was aiming for, what I always aim for - of course words in a post don't always come across the way you mean !

(p.s. I know no one suggested otherwise, I'm just in a philosophical mood...)

The only person I was worried about doing 'critical' rather than 'critique' was Kate herself:D I'm enjoying this thread for the advise that you and others are providing:)

Are you a secret linguistics student by the way ?;) You have a great way with words and their analysis:p

[cvb]

Are you a secret linguistics student by the way ? You have a great way with words and their analysis


I'm a closet poet ;) But as an engineer/accoutant/IT person - tis kind of out of character ! Tho as a dreamy Pisces I guess its more in keeping !

[fitz]

they're beautiful pics Kate, looks like the training is coming on really well.

[KateWooten]

Oops ... forgot to look at my thread for a couple of days ... thanks guys for all your encouragement and advice and everything ... Montana, awww.. thanks for thinking about me, no don't worry - I'm the world's most cheerful person and I could never get down on the wonderful joePony and me - we're way too darn cute together for that :D No, I'm definitely with cvb on the evaluating and learning and growing thing and the more I analyse the better I get at growing. This whole digital camera thing is quite new to me - I mean 3 years, but that's new after having been around for 40 years without one ...Being able to see yourself within seconds .. and on video even, is just fantastic for learning ... then being able to share and get feedback not just from whoever's about locally but from people all over the world ... within minutes !! OMG, that's huge . When you think about it - aren't we just so darn lucky to be born now and to see all this happening over our own lifetimes :)

Kate
(off to ride some ponies.. suffused with joy at being in the 21st century :D )

[KateWooten]

Not sure this is really a dressage issue .. but here's the saddle fit pics ... we're trying to figure out a) if joePony's saddle is a good fit ( I think it is )
b) where it should be placed along his back and c) laugh at just how poor a fit poor Rosie's saddle is :(

Ok, he're's a look at joseph naked, so you can see roughly his build - his back is quite flat from wither to errr... waist ? my old saddle, the wintec 2000 GP was too banana shaped on him - too bent from front to back so it perched up there.
http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f135/joePony/naked.jpg

Next, I have drawn on him (using iodine - I thought it would be a nice purple line, unfortunately it looks like I've daubed him with poo :( ) ... this line is from the top of his shoulder to a point I found on the back of his shoulder that is all knobbly - I thought it would be a good reference point .. I think it's equivalent to a bony sort of knobbly bit I can feel at the back of my own shoulder ... and I wish I had some better knowledge of anatomy ...
http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f135/joePony/brownMark.jpg

OK, now here's the saddle - it's the 'new' used Kieffer that I think fits his shape really well ... First off, I put it on where it seems to lie just right, and took a pic from the front of how beautifully the curve of the panels matched the curve of the pony ... but that didn't come out at all well.

Next I put the saddle on where I think I normally put it which is too far forward :
http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f135/joePony/tooFarForward.jpg

Then slid it so I could see it's too far back ...
http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f135/joePony/tooFarBackSide.jpg

Now here's my revised version of it where I think it should go ( with the brown stain for reference, although I have to apologise for the fact that the pony just would not look up for the camera even though I said 'say cheese' very loud many times) - should I be worrying about how much higher the cantle is than the pommel ?
http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f135/joePony/aboutRightSide.jpg

Now, here's the saddle from the back ... it didn't turn out as well as I thought - in real life, it looked perfectly symmetrical and great .. so I dragged out an old water tub and balanced precariously on it and took the shot .. i guess pony was standing all lopsided - there is good clearance all along the spine in reality, and the saddle looks even on both panels - but I do think it could do with re-flocking ....
http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f135/joePony/fromTheBack.jpg

OK, just for fun.. here's Silent Bob ... the suspiciously under-mentioned Rosie, who after all is really my 'main' horse ! Here she's wearing the abominable Wintec, which I forced myself to have a good look at on her, and which doesn't fit her at all. I'm can't even bring myself to share the photo of how badly the panels conformed to the curve of her barrel - scarily badly :(
http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f135/joePony/littleMare.jpg
Here the saddle is way too far forward, I moved it forward, backwards all over the place, trying to find a place where it followed her curve best and this is the spot where it fit 'best' which is to say - not at all. OMG - look at the daylight shining through underneath the back of those panels !!! Needless to say, I took it straight off her after the pic.

So, back to the drawing board again with Rosie (but I knew that) ... How do we feel about joe in the Kieffer ?

[Mehitabel]

the actual top of the cantle isn't overly important - what is important is that the seat itself is flat. some saddles have high cantles.

if you put a pencil in the middle if the seat, would it roll forward, backward, or sit in place? if you lifted the cantle - let's pretend with a front riser pad so it's more level with the cantle - would the seat be level, or slope back? it's much easier to assess things like that in person than from pics - even the best pic can look different taken an inch or so to the left or right.

i'd definitely say the kieffer is worth girthing up and having a sit on.

[fitz]

Some saddles (like my new one for example) have high cantles. The kieffer looks grand on joe.