bucking

[drewpoo22]

Hi I know quite a few posts have been made on bucking and I have read them but none of them quite seem to relate to the one which I'm having with my 4 y.o mare. I have had her for around 10 months and when I first got her she was an angel who would never buck. The bucking started a couple of months ago and seems to have got worse. She bucks mostly when we're going into canter/in the canter/ and after jumps. Her saddle fits properly, her teeth were recently filed, she has no soundness or back issues that the vet could find. On trails or out on a hack when we're cantering she almost never bucks. Maybe just the odd excitable crow hop if we're with other horses but otherwise none. I haven't been able to school her that much cause the arena I use is a half an hour ride away. I was taking lessons with her but I stopped because it wasn't really helping, and the instructors I work with don't seem to understand my horse and it's easier for me to work on it myself... but does anyone have any ideas why she might be doing this or how to solve it? :confused:

[Bay Mare]

I've tried to put this nicely but I can't ... I'm not being mean or doubting you but ...

are you SURE that the saddle fits? It's always worth double and triple checking as saddle fit and back problems are the very first thing that I would look at for a horse that bucks. I would also get a physio/chiro/back person to check her back as they're specialists in the back.

Have there been any saddle or back issues in the past which could have resulted in negative memories for her?

The other thing to think about is how you (or the rider) is sitting to the canter. I know that we all hate to think that we could be the cause of a problem but it's definitely something worth thinking about even if we have to swallow our pride and accept criticism of our riding :)

The other thing to consider is that she's still very young and not fully developed yet. It's well known that I'm completely against backing youngsters too early. Maybe she's grown and her balance is out. Maybe she's finding it uncomfortable having a rider on her back.

The other thing to consider is whether it's exhuberance though I would expect it to happen out on hacks too.

Oh, and finally, I can appreciate that your instructor wasn't right for you but you really would be better finding someone who is rather than going it alone. It's much easier to see problems from the ground than it is from in the saddle.

What is she like on long reins? Does she canter ok then?

[Wings]

I know you say that the saddle fits and the vet can't find anything wrong with her back, but to me it does sound like it could be back problems. Perhaps your horse is not bucking on a hack because you canter in a straight line. When you canter in the school, she has to bend more. If her back is out, this could be uncomfortable. Also, bucking after a jump could indicate something is hurting her.

Did you have the saddle checked by a professional saddle fitter? Also, vets are not always the best people to check your horse's back. Have you thought about getting a chiropractor out? Or perhaps a different vet for a second opinion?

Please do consider finding a more suitable instructor. They might be able to see something from the ground that you can't see from on top, or they might have more experience with this kind of problem.

I hope you can find the problem and solve it.

[KateWooten]

well, it does sound _exactly_ like my experiences with joePony ! He's also 4 and was pinning his ears, tensing and bucking when asked to canter in a smaller space but not out on a trail.

OK, you've had her coming up to a year, and she's 4 ? So you bought her as a fully 'broke' 3 yr old ... or you're a trainer ? One or the other ! If you haven't thought of yourself before as a horse trainer, right now is the time to step up and bite that bullet. If she was started by someone else, then do you know who ? Do you know how much, and what sort of training she has had so far ?

Either way, you're the trainer now. I can tell you this - she's bucking because either she's not sure she can canter around the arena because she's not yet balanced enough, or because to do so causes her pain. JoePony is the same age, and he's just this past week been able to canter around the arena. It has taken 8 weeks of fairly intensive schooling, in walk and then in trot, with very focused suppling and back strengthening exercises, as well as 2 visits from the chiropractor, and a new saddle to get him to this stage - even though he could canter in the arena a year ago ! They change shape so much from 3 to 4. And they change so much over 8 weeks of focussed schooling work - you really do need to consider saddle fit and the chiro.

You have to consider her balance. My pony is pretty well balanced <now> and can cope with it - but with all that fixing we did, he still was left with the fear of canter. He tensed right up in trot when he thought he was going to be asked to canter - screwed his face up, twisted his neck, clenched his teeth - even at the thought of it. So even when I was sure we'd fixed all the problems, he still bucked, I still had to ride him through it, I still had to convince him to relax ... because when he's tense and bracing - sure it does hurt to canter ! It hurts him because when the horse's back is tight like that, the rider can't sit the canter at all well, so she bounces about, and his back gets sore ... it's a viscious cycle !

Something also worries me - she bucks after jumps ? I'll leave it to you as the trainer to decide on a good course of action there ( hint : SHE'S NOT READY TO BE JUMPING - SHE'S STILL A BABY !!!!)

So, if I were you here's a rough plan based on what worked for me :

- Take her out of the school completely for the next 4 weeks - just take her on hacks and work on speeding and slowing within each gait. Wait until you can easily speed and slow her in canter before going back in the school.
- In the mean time, continue with her groundwork - there are plenty of good back strengthening and suppling exercises you can do - Mike Schaffer's 'Right From the Start' works excellently, as does Clinton Anderson's 'Lunging for Respect' and I'm sure there are a bunch of others - ask away if you can't get hold of books or info.
- Get your saddle sorted and her back checked over by a chiro or other recommended body worker.
- Next, bring her back into the arena at a walk for 1-3 weeks. Now that sounds dull as heck I know but it's honestly not ! Again, ask away - I did write a list of walk exercises that I'd found that kept joe and me not just busy but excited and working well for ages.
- Introduce trot, but again slowly and focussed on flex and band, suppleness, and bringing her onto the bit, constantly asking her to raise her back and engage.
- Probably in the fall, ask for canter from a walk. Not from trot, as this has the potential to ruin your trot ! Be prepared to ride through the bucks. Be prepared for it to look dreadful and don't worry about it. Get up in 2-point as long as you need to until she's slowed, relaxed, going forward and softly bent. Only then try sitting down, and only for a few strides. Pull her up as soon as she gets it right and praise her.

Cantering in the school is hard, hard work. If she's anything like my joePony, she'll have tried her best for you before, and she's pushed herself too hard - like if someone you really respected asked you to run 10 miles ... and you did - for them - but in doing so you pullled a billion muscles and now it hurts to even think about running - that's where she's at right now.

BTW - she just might not be ready for it. My other mare is the same age too, had exactly the same training is joePony, and she's just not ready to be cantering in the school - she'd fall flat on her face. Your girl just might need more time to grow and find her balance.

[smaggi]

You definitely need to rule out any pain issues first.

Have you tried making her canter in the arena with the saddle on, but no one in the saddle? It would be interesting to see if she still bucks then. If the saddle fit or back pain is a problem she would probably still buck then. It's possible that whe may need weight in the saddle for it to rub, but it's worth a try.

Another thing to consider is that that she may hate to work in a school because she's bored and she's just being a teenage brat. I bought Cisco as a 4 year old and he HATED going in circles. He tried a lot of things to avoid it, including bucking a few times. I finally got him to enjoy arena work by adding things to keep him interested, like cones, poles, or buckets to move between and around, or even a bridge, ...

[KateWooten]

I honestly do not believe it helps to think of a horse as naughty or a brat or whatever - sure they test you - to see if you are a good enough leader - well, of course - you're about to sit all over them and boss them about for hours on end, giving them almost no choice in the matter - they'd be darn fools to put that trust into just anyone that came along - they've got to know that you're not going to put them in a dangerous situation !

It may just be my limited experience, but I have yet to meet a horse that is just plain naughty, or even lazy. I've met a bunch that are badly handled, inconsistently handled, and generally disillusioned with the whole thing. But I've certainly never met a well-handled horse that was a 'brat' !

[smaggi]

I disagree. Sometimes a horse tests the rider to see what he can get away with just because they don't want to do the job. I'm not saying that the horse is necessarily always bad or a brat, but they can display a brat attitude about it. It is your job as a leader to figure out how to handle the situation. In my case that I described with Cisco, I found a way to accomplish the work in a way that we both enjoyed. It still doesn't change the fact that my horse was behaved like a brat.

It's kind of like a teenager who's spent his whole life loafing and then you tell them it's time to get a job. Some will understand and try to make the most of it even though they aren't thrilled about the situation. Others can be bratty at times and try everything they can think of to get out of it. It doesn't mean the child is always a brat or a bad kid, but anyone can behave like a brat at times, including a horse.

[drewpoo22]

Thanks for all your replies so far. Well I have lunged her with no rider, with the saddle on and she does not buck. I'm an intermediate rider, I bought her already broke as a 3 y.o (yes I know that's young). She has grown, filled out and her attitude has changed since I got her. As I said before she was angel before and although some people have said on here they don't think horse's are brats she does seem to be a brat and will have a tantrum if I don't let her get her own way. I don't understand how some people on here are saying she may not be ready to canter since when I bought her she was doing absolutely fine cantering in the arena, doing good transitions etc. Do you think since she's grown it could be hard for her to balance now? I'm sort of at a loss to what to do and have had bad experiences with trainers and don't have endless money to spnd on my horse. I'm considering selling her since I don't think I have the experience to handle her and want a horse that is more of a school master that I can have fun with but obviously right now would be very difficult to sell her. :(

[KateWooten]

well, see the thing is, my boy was cantering around an arena as a 3 yr old too. At that age, if handled right, they are unbelievably willing and keen to please. The novice handler (me), or the professional trainer wishing to push them too hard, can get amazing results from a young horse for a short time.

Pushing them at that stage, though, backfires. It's just as if you'd run and jumped higher than you were really fit for - you know, sometimes when you just get all enthusiastic and keen .. you go do incredible things... but you suffer for it the next day!

I unwittingly pushed my boy too hard last year and I felt dreadful about it. One day he was cantering 20m circles with a simple change in the middle, next he was braced and bucking and like I say it has taken months and months of patient work to get him back to where he was if I hadn't have pushed him over the edge :(

You can go for a 'quick fix' in this instance - you could insist that she canters well, you could ride through the buck, you could use a device or a gadget or great riding technique to stop her putting her head down and bucking - but she's bucking for a reason - she's trying to tell you something's wrong - it sounds like she's done as much as she can willingly as a 3 and 4 yr old - but it's too much for her and she risks injuring herself if she carries on.

If I were you (and I'm not !!!) I'd probably stick with her. You can learn so much from bringing on a young horse - it really is the most rewarding journey of your life. When you do it well, and you take your young horse out to her first show or whatever, and everyone sings her praises - it's the best feeling in the world to know what a great start you gave that horse. That's if you have the drive to do it - and the resources. It does take a lot of time - not just in working with the horse, it takes a lot of of your own time in learning, reading, studying what to do. It's hard work. I wouldn't miss it for the world. If you're not in a position right now to do that, or you really just need an easy-going horse then probably you should cut your losses on her and sell her to a training home. It's not the end of the world to move a horse to a more suitable home. It IS a bad thing to keep a horse too long, if you feel you can't handle her well, because that does reduce her chances of finding her forever home - I'm sure the last thing you'd want is for this sweet little mare to go and get labelled a problem horse.

Can you ride her through the buck ? I mean, are you in danger of coming off when she's bucking, and does that scare you ? I have to ask that because in order to consider keeping and bringing her on, you really need to be confident that she won't unseat you, and that you can remain relaxed and cheerful through it. One thing guaranteed to make a young horse 'misbehave' is a rider or handler who is scared - the young horse then thinks "OMG ! Even the boss is scared, there must be something really really scary there !"

As regards my 'being a brat' comment, the thing is a good horseman can read the horse much better than the rest of us - he reacts very quickly to the horse's first 'tests'. The horse 'tests' the handler, the handler reacts swiftly (but never harshly) and the horse backs down - usually licks and chews and thinks "ok, good, you're still the boss, just checking'. That's all there is to it. Unfortunately for the rest of us, we're often slow to react, so the horse tests a bit more, then a bit more, and by the time we're thinking about 'correcting' the behaviour it gotten really pushy - that's when we label them a brat. Oddly enough, if you look at any of these really great horsemen - JohnLyons, Ray Hunt, Clinton Anderson, Kelly Marks ... their horses never seem to 'be a brat'.

[drewpoo22]

Thanks for your reply KateWooten. I see what you mean about them being suprisingly willing as a very young horse which she was. The lady I bought her from did her all training, but to be honest I think she pushed her too hard as she was already jumping and showing when I bought her. She was such a sweetie then though. I've decided I may like to keep her, since I don't feel like this is any of her fault and feel like I could gain alot of experience with her rather than just being one of those riders that has a push button horse and doesn't have to really do anything. The other thing is although she has done some really big bucks, I never really feel very scared when she does it, and she has not unseated me so far. She has a sensitive mouth, so when bucking I don't want to pull on her mouth to stop because it seems to worsen the problem. I have been thinking and sadly enough I think that I may be the root of the problem... you see she was having a problem picking up the right lead at which I was getting slightly frustrated and feel like I may have been a little too harsh in bringing her back. Could this have started the bucking? I had her teeth floated by an equine dentist and this seems to have helped alittle with the sensitivity in her mouth but she is still bucking. The vet checked her over and couldn't find anything wrong with her, and my saddle was checked for fit by my instructor. Do you think it should be professionally fitted? It doesn't seem to me like it could be the saddle because as I mentioned before she doesn't buck on the lunge. However, my instructor suggested I use a neck stretcher to improve her topline, and when I used it on the lunge she flipped out. It wasn't on tight that it was forcing her to put her head down but she still flipped. Do you think it was too hard on her muscles or does this seem to be because of her just being "i don't want to do it" ? I haven't used the neck stretcher since then. The first time her bucking started was at a show, which she has always been calm at shows but just in the ring she was doing little crow hops which neither seemed like grumpiness, pain and not over exuberance eiher- since then she carried on with the bucking. Sometimes she lays her ears back and is not wanting to do anything, other times just seems like she has too much energy. Another thing is she used to be willing to relax her back and work properly and accept the bit but now she's always tense with her spine inverted and neck in the air.Sorry this is so long, if anyone has any ideas/suggestions then I'd love to hear them.

[smaggi]

As regards my 'being a brat' comment, the thing is a good horseman can read the horse much better than the rest of us - he reacts very quickly to the horse's first 'tests'. The horse 'tests' the handler, the handler reacts swiftly (but never harshly) and the horse backs down - usually licks and chews and thinks "ok, good, you're still the boss, just checking'. That's all there is to it. Unfortunately for the rest of us, we're often slow to react, so the horse tests a bit more, then a bit more, and by the time we're thinking about 'correcting' the behaviour it gotten really pushy - that's when we label them a brat. Oddly enough, if you look at any of these really great horsemen - JohnLyons, Ray Hunt, Clinton Anderson, Kelly Marks ... their horses never seem to 'be a brat'.

I agree. When I got my young horse, I was a pretty green rider and when he tested me, I didn't know how to respond. So he got away with things and learned that he could do what he wanted. Now our relationship is very different. He is never a brat with me any more. We trust each other and he works well for me. He will occasionally try to push his shoulder out to try to get to the horses standing in the middle or other little tricks. The difference is now I have a quick answer, I apply pressure as light as possible, and when I get the slightest try I release. Then he doesn't try it again. Cisco and I get along very well together now.

I still see him test every new rider that tries to ride him. He will try all of his old tricks that used to work like rub them on the rail, push his shoulder to the inside of the circle while bending the other way, standing by other standing horses, ... He is seeing how much he is can get away with.

[Montezrider]

Just a quick thought about the saddle fitting . She is still young , and her back is surely changing as she matures . Her level of fitness will change over time too . I would definately look to her saddle first , she seems to be telling you that it may not be quite right for her . That is just her physical comfort , her mental comfort needs to be looked at too , it may well be a combination of the two .

[Bay Mare]

As I said before she was angel before and although some people have said on here they don't think horse's are brats she does seem to be a brat and will have a tantrum if I don't let her get her own way.


9 times out of 10 there will be a reason. You may not be able to see it but it doesn't mean that it isn't there. I am NOT saying that horses don't suss you out because they do, I know they do, I've experienced that they do.

I am very into 'there's a reason for everything', I'll admit that. BUT when Saff was 'stropping' in the arena I couldn't see a reason for it. As far as I was concerned she was having a strop, she was being a baggage. She's in a treeless saddle, she's barefoot with beautifully balanced feet, she has Bowen once a month. In addition to this she's a very dominant and opinionated mare so does tend to shout rather loudly if she has an opinion.

Anyhoo ... having decided that she was just being stroppy I set about working her through it. She can strop but we don't stop until she stops the strop. Mmmm ... then I mentioned it to our Bowen therapist who had a good look at her. Prior to this I'd noticed that walking down the field her barrel swung out to the right but not so much to the left. A small flicker of light but I pushed it away.

Long story short. She had 'splatted' in the field and hurt her shoulder a while ago. She'd apparently healed and got better without any ill effects because she was trying to compensate. This had resulted in her being about to stretch her right side/contract her left but had difficulties doing it vice versa. The therapist talked me through the 'strops', when they occurred and what I was asking her to do. Bloody great lightbulb comes on ... I was asking her to bend through her body the way that she found difficult. She didn't 'strop' immediately because she's an honest kind of a gal and was trying for me. When I kept asking, though, she got more and more uncomfortable, I wasn't 'listening' and the only way was to have a tantrum!

Cue one very guilty feeling mummy!

[oldbushy]

I once read in a book by Tom Robert who I believe is the best horse trainer and advisor that to test if the saddle fits correct and is not rubbing put talcum powder all over the horses back where the saddle is put on then put on the saddle (without blanket) do up girth mount and ride around at a walk for a short while, dismount, take off the saddle and look at the underside to see where the talcum powder has rubbed. Has it only rubbed on the part of the saddle that is meant to come into contact with the horse?

[smaggi]

I heard something similar, but they said to put the powder on the underside of the saddle and see where it has contacted the horse's back. I never tried it though.

[julia gulia]

I disagree. Sometimes a horse tests the rider to see what he can get away with just because they don't want to do the job. I'm not saying that the horse is necessarily always bad or a brat, but they can display a brat attitude about it. It is your job as a leader to figure out how to handle the situation. In my case that I described with Cisco, I found a way to accomplish the work in a way that we both enjoyed. It still doesn't change the fact that my horse was behaved like a brat.

It's kind of like a teenager who's spent his whole life loafing and then you tell them it's time to get a job. Some will understand and try to make the most of it even though they aren't thrilled about the situation. Others can be bratty at times and try everything they can think of to get out of it. It doesn't mean the child is always a brat or a bad kid, but anyone can behave like a brat at times, including a horse.

Sorry but I must agree with Kate here. Horses do not plot and scheme in order to make our lives difficult. They live right here , right now and I think it is so important to set them up for success rather than failure. To think they are being brats is to set them up for failure.
Just my opinion for what it's worth!

[entreat]

I believe that bucking has a reason, and in this case, it sounds like her body has out grown her balance. Take it all a step back & go back to first principles. Redevelop the balance in walk and trot and ensure you have firm foundations.

As she has, and will continue to, change shape with age and workload, consider a saddle fitting again. it may be pinching her around her shoulders as she develops & fills out.

Don't sell your little girl just yet. Work with her through it, and I think you'll be well rewarded.

A friend of mine has a STB who is so green, he may as well be a 4yo! But because of poor saddle-training, inconsistent work, STB flat-back conformation, and his racing muscles (ie, no bend!), he is terribly unbalanced and will buck into canter if not prepared. This friend just thought he was taking the ****, but it became clear after him doing some regular balance work with a friend that he was bucking because he couldn't coordinate his legs in time to have a smooth transition (plus very bad saddle fit).

I wish you all the best in your challenge, and hope you can overcome it. :)