Developing the wrong neck muscles!

[toohorsemad]

I think my horse is developing the wrong neck muscles... I am not sure but he sticks out his head when hes working and I dont seem to see the sausage like muscle in his neck like your meant to! Im so confused

[Ebie Equestrian]

How do you feed your horse his hay/haylage?

Feeding them off the ground rather than a hay net or wall mounted rack will improve correct muscle tone in the neck. Our Hanoverian dressage mare had a similar problem until our instructor insisted wel let her eat off the floor and it worked.

[toohorsemad]

He lives in a field so he eats grass only

[Scarlett 001]

The muscles on top of the neck are the ones you want to develop. You really need to work on getting the horse to relax his neck and lower his head somewhat and head towards a more vertical profile. But this is all connected to building up the body and hind end muscles as well as getting him to relax, accept contact and build up the upper neck muscles. Lots to work on - are you taking lessons so you can get advice etc.?

I am working on these kinds of things with my horse at the moment. It is a slow and gradual process.

[toohorsemad]

Im not using my horse at the moment in my lesson but Im might take him to some so Im pretty much on my own :(

[Tangle]

but he sticks out his head when hes working and I dont seem to see the sausage like muscle in his neck like your meant to!
In what way is he sticking his neck out? If he's hollow but more or less ambling around and not fighting it's not good (he's not building good muscle) but he's also not building bad muscle - to really develop the muscles under his neck he's got to be using them, and that means he'll be snatching the bit a lot and/or trying to run around like a giraffe!

Do you have any pictures? It sounds like you're not quite sure whether his muscles are getting worse or not - if we could see what he looks like we might be able to help :)

Scarlett's given some good advice - and it does take a LONG time to change your horse's way of going and musculature :rolleyes:.

Above all else, your horse needs to be relaxed (in the way a prima balerina is relaxed) - if he's not relaxing you need to work out why (environment, rider, minor injury, tack) and solve it. Having a couple of lessons with him would really help you to resolve or start to work through some of these issues.

[toohorsemad]

I am quite confused to be honest... he is my first horse but he is a pure connemara and I dont want to ruin him :(! Hes on hes on his day off today but Ill get pics asap :) He doesnt really fight with you or anything because hes quite laid back and just kind of trusts you. My instuctor told me I had to lunge him in side reins every week but then someone on NR told me it can do more damage than good sometimes and when I found out my RI got a bad farrier to shoe vics feet I stop lunging with side reins... just in case so I am really confused now! Can anyone help? I know it will take a lot of work to make him really good but he has a real presence even when I take him to pc (he likes to show off :) )

[KateWooten]

You're fine toohorsemad, don't worry, there's no rush - you won't ruin him ! Horses are very forgiving on the whole and yours sounds particularly so.

Take your time to figure things out. Do a bunch of reading round the subject before really deciding how to proceed. You really don't need the side reins - what you do need is to be really sure in yourself about how the horse learns - about 'pressure-release'. Really, that's all there is to horse training ! - including developing the right muscles he needs to hold his head where you'd like it, and including developing the right muscles to get him working well from behind, which is what you really want.

When you ride him, just at a walk, think about asking him to move forward with a little more energy, and soften his head and neck, just a little to the inside. At every step, he either steps forward with energy, and you 'release' - you stop asking with your leg, or you 'accelerate' the cue - tap him with the stick. Again with the rein aid - he either braces against your hand, so you squeeze that rein more... or he softens ever so slightly so you release that rein a little.

That's really all there is to it. It's just difficult to coordinate at a walk, and the changes are so subtle that first time through it's not easy to figure out when to release. That's why for beginning horses, and beginning trainers <-- that's you because you are 'training' him to carry himself in a better way ... it's so much easier to get your 'release timing' nailed, by doing the "lateral flexing". At a standstill, you literally hold pressure on one rein until the horse bends and 'gives' his nose around toward your boot just a little - enough to create a little slack in the rein - and at that point you drop the rein, exhale and rub him. That's the start of the pressure-release agreement you sign with him. The quicker you can release, the softer he will be.

When you've got that going really well, you go to walking him and asking for a little softness at the front, a little impulsion at the back, a little bend ... and you remember to remain acutely aware of when he responds to any of these requests form you - and that's how you begin to develop the good looking muscles that you're working for. In everything you do with him, strive for a little more softness from him. Focus on your own release timing. The quicker you release on his good response, the softer he will be, and the more of those good muscles he'll develop.

[toohorsemad]

Ok this is going to be hard because Vics walk is BAD! lol thanks for clearing that up :) It doesnt matter that he hasnt done any lateral movements does it? I probably shouldnt have got a youngish horse as a first horse but Im learning :)

[KateWooten]

No you're fine don't worry about it, you're on a great journey with him. You'll learn far far more with him than you would with an older horse. You just keep on asking all the questions and thinking about the answers.

Yes, it does matter about lateral movement LOL ! In the english tradition, lateral movement is difficult and complicated and only good riders can do it, and only older well-schooled horses can manage ! Its a lie ! Foals can sidepass, and spin, and turn on their haunches. Lateral movement is easy, fun and is really the key to having a soft and flexible horse who is really listening to you.

Your horse can do lateral movements already - he's quite good at it, and can only improve. In his stable pick his feet on the right side, then go to his left side and ask him to move his butt over to give you space. See lateral movement. Now take that and refine it - take him out and ask his butt to step over just cos you're staring at it hard .. if it doesn't tap it lightly with your stick.. tap, tap, tap... if it doesn't move tap harder TAP, TAP TAP ... sooner or later it'll move over - even just a thought of moving over, stop tapping and rub him. DOn't ask for too much at once - even a thought of moving is a step up if he never thought it before ! Once you've got it from the ground, get it from the saddle. Once he knows when to move his butt over, work on when to move his shoulders over. This will all take a while of course - that's the wonderful journey you're on - enjoy it ! Just imagine how his version of walking a 20 meter circle is going to improve when you can at any moment put his butt an inch more to the inside - his shoulder a little further over here, his ribcage a little more bent there ... that degree ofcontrol - oh wow, what a beautiful, soft 20 m circle you will have - just picture how soft he is and how beautifully arched his neck is :)

[toohorsemad]

Thanks I would LOVE a nice soft circle off Vic :) One question does he need to know how to do lateral movements in the saddle before I "try" and get him soft?

[KateWooten]

He does need to know what it means to move away from your leg .. but you know there is no set order to your journey from here .. you can't really go wrong - it doesn't matter if you go out and try it from the saddle, or from the ground, or however you feel like it ! You don't have to get off your horse and do a month of groundwork before you ask him to move away from your leg under saddle - although you could if you wanted. What's important is to give him the best chance you can of understanding what you're asking for - and to reward him when he tries to do what you're asking. If you're going to ask him to move away from your leg - and you are - it's part of the process of getting him soft on the circle - then set him up to succeed by doing a little bit on the ground before you get on next time. Oh, and another thing I do which helps alot - if I ask the horse to move away from my leg under saddle and he just doesn't get it - I just get off right there, and push him over from the ground. Aha - he says, I see, and steps right away from my leg under saddle 'like this Mom ?' he says cheerily !

I've read a few of your posts about your horse, and this really is a horse you can play and learn with, without any fear ... so take it all in, but don't think too hard - just go play, see what you find out, and come tell us... it's just a continuous process of trying things, seeing the effect, and improving from there.

Here's a neat little site with '12 rules' which are nice to know ...
http://www.lessismorehorse.com/12%20Training%20Principles.htm

[toohorsemad]

Well I was messing with Vic in the field tonight and I asked him to move his behind over and he hadnt the foggest what I wanted and he just kept circling for me :confused:

[KateWooten]

Were you staring hard at his butt ... and then tapping the air near his hip ... then tapping his hip ...

It's not something he'll know automatically - you'll have to teach him. It is easier when you get to see someone do it ... I'll see if I can dig out a picture or two ...

Oooh - actually, I have a new little project - a very stiff little mare who is coming in tonight - I will try to document her progress as she does these things for the first time - that should make for a good picture diary thing - maybe that will help you ?

Block his forward movement with the lead line.... and get more and more insistent with your cue to his back end. At some point he will 'try' to move his butt away from you - even just a shift of weight away from you - remember - you are teaching him, he does not know any of this yet - so reward him for the slightest try on his part. See if you can discourage him from moving forward, by gentle tugs on the leadline, and still be very insistent with that tap, tap tap by his hip. It's all in your release timing - which is how a thread on neck muscles gets to about moving his butt over LOL! Because once you have got really good at recognising his 'try' from the ground, all the 'asking for bend'... 'asking for softness' from the saddle will be so much easier.

[toohorsemad]

Ok thanks I think a picture diary idea is a great idea! Oh and which lateral movement should I teach him first? I think rein back would be best as he knows move back very well from me teaching him stable manners :) then which one will be fairly easy for him to learn?

[Rips]

You should try some carrot stretches with him too, a few every day on both sides ;) it really does work :) Get him stretching long and low, around to his girth etc

[toohorsemad]

Ok thanks I didnt have a very good ride today with Vic... I think Im in way over my head! :(

[Tangle]

I think Im in way over my head! :(
Please believe in yourself - you've recognised there's a problem and you're asking for help. You're prepared to try and put things into practice. That's more than half the battle. It doesn't matter whether it takes you 3 minutes or 3 hours or 3 weeks to get Vic to move away from you when you ask. As long as you're reasonably consistent and give him lots of praise when he gets a close "try" you'll get there - and you'll know that it was all you're own work. You can do this :)

Oh and which lateral movement should I teach him first? I think rein back would be best as he knows move back very well from me teaching him stable manners :) then which one will be fairly easy for him to learn?
Rein back isn't realy a lateral movement - you want him to go back straight! The fact he moves back when asked is a good sign, though, as it suggests he's learnt about moving away from pressure :)

If you're struggling with getting him to yield his quarters, how is he on moving sideways in the stable? Can you get him to move over (all of him ;)) if he's in the wrong place? At the coarsest level at the moment, you just need him to learn that if you prod him in the ribs or quarters with a finger (you might want to use a vocal cue like "over" as well), you want him to move sideways away from that pressure. Once you've got him moving away (whereever you are, however you're asking) you can refine the aids and the response :).

[KateWooten]

yes, please don't get discouraged ...you're already streets ahead of many people - remember, some people never even think to start asking the questions !

What didn't you like about the latest ride ? Perhaps we should concentrate on 'fixing' one thing at a time.. I just thought - it really doesn't matter what you pick as the first thing to work on ... just pick one thing, and use it to develop your 'release timing' ... Once you've got that you have a really good start to get him going the way you want.

Release timing just means - ask him to do something really really gently ... watch him really closely... keep asking him, louder and louder (for example if you were asking him to move his hip over, from the ground you might start tapping the air by his hip with your stick.. then louder - tap his hip with a stick.... then louder - a stronger tap tap tap ...) All the while you are asking he should be 'trying' different things. The very first time he tries doing what you ask - even if it's only a tiny tiny movement in the right direction - you immediately release all pressure, exhale, relax and rub him. The quicker you 'release' when he finds the right answer, the softer he will be.

But don't 'worry' about any of this. If all you do is ride about and have fun with him, and bond together so that you know he would like to please you - then that's fine. Sometimes, it's good to step back and just have some fun for a while :)

[toohorsemad]

Thanks he isnt very responsive but thats Vic for you! :rolleyes: Although I didnt really like the ride he did do rein back (in the saddle :)) for me :D Although it was only a step and it toke a while he still did it and I realeased as quick as I could and praised him loads but I really ahve a LONG way to go!

[KateWooten]

Hey - that sounds great !!! Keep your focus on all the great small steps you ARE taking ... I agree it definitely can get depressing if you look too hard at how far you have to go. But really, it doesn't matter at all how far or how fast you progress - or ven if you ever get there. It's the journey that counts. And I know I always come across as some big expert and all that jazz, but I'm not, I'm just one step ahead on this journey, same as you.

Today my little mare and me cantered in an arena and made i round the corner. So what ? Big big step for her and me.

[toohorsemad]

Yeah I think I'll just focus on perfecting rein back until we have it perfect and then move onto the harder stuff! Im kind of scared about this softing stuff because Im not sure if I'll know when hes softening :(

[KateWooten]

I think that's a great idea. And you will know when he feels soft in the rein-back... and by contrast, when he feels resistant. It's very obvious, don't worry, not difficult at all - just difficult to explain in words that's all LOL! Give him his cue to go back, and release when you feel he's giving you a big try. Eventually when he knows he's supposed to move backwards, then you can start waiting til he's moving back with his nose nicely dropped before you release. That's about all there it to it.

Hey - we don't seem to have pictures yet of this cute boy !

[toohorsemad]

I dont have pics of us riding really because they're really old but anyways heres around christmas (I know that it was ages ago but it the only one under saddle I could find) and excuse my leg position its A LOT better now!!!

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a390/obsessionofhorses/Horseridinglesson069.jpg

And heres a more recent one of Vic:

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a390/obsessionofhorses/Vic010.jpg

[jenren!!]

Hmm i dont think it's a case of 'developing the wrong muscles' as such, but just a case of developing the right ones. Stretching work would be beneficial for this. You need to develop his top line. When you ride round the arena, encourage him to stretch his neck down. Push with your leg, and give a little with your reins. Make him stride out with a long neck. This will encourage him to stretch the whole of his topline and develop the muscles as well. Then try in trot. It isnt easy at first, because he will probably not recognise what you want him to do however it will come with time. Also work on lots of transitions, circles and serpentines to help stretch his back end muscles and strengthen the inside hind leg.

Jenny xx

[KateWooten]

I think he looks lovely, and you two look great together - thanks for posting him :)

[toohorsemad]

No problem Im going to be riding later on and I'll put up some more recent under saddle photos :)