Almost scared to ask, but do I need a Flash?

[HairyCob]

I've noticed recently that when Dolly sets her mind on something (usually jogging home or not going out in the first place!) she sticks her head up and opens her mouth whilst crossing her jaw to evade the bit:rolleyes:

Now I'm getting pretty good at riding her with my legs and seat mainly, so don't have to 'rely' on the bit totall for control and steering, but I'd still rather she didn't do this for obvious reasons.

I hate flashes with a passion usually, as I strongly believe that a lot of people use them because everyone else does, or because they come with the bridle... I hate them so much that when I bought my bridle I made them take the flash off, and told them they could sell it to someone who *thought* they needed it:rolleyes: ;)

However, I am fast coming to the conclusion that as a short term measure whilst getting Dolly back into work and re-schooled, I *might* have to resort to one.... what do you guys think?

[Guest]

Been there, done it and got the t-shirt.

I put a flash on Bry with a snaffle once, she was a complete nightmare, she basically threw a right wobbly at having her mouth clamped shut, so I was never brave enough to try it again.

I think it might be an idea just to try it, you'll probably find that you won't need it for long.

Have you got a martingale on her?

[domane]

I have one which I occasionally use when schooling Cherry but not every time as, like you, I would rather get to the root of the problem than try a quick fix. But it just gives her something else to think about every now and then, so life is not boring!

[HairyCob]

Bobbin, we DID have a martingale when I first got her (along with a dutch gag!) but to be honest, she's worse with one than without- since I've taken it off she keeps her head much lower when not 'pis*ing about'.... and since her back has been better, her head is MUCH lower.

She tends to 'poke' her head forwards and a little up when 'evading' rather than 'smack mum in the nose' up if that makes sense- and she kind of 'twists' her head round too... ho, hum, what to do with her?!:rolleyes: ;)

[Guest]

Oh right yeah, whack it on for a bit, it won't do any harm, if anything it'll just give you a bit more confidence. Obviously if it doesn't work then take it off.
I am going to get Bry back into a snaffle at some point especially after the revelation that she has no brakes so why bother putting her in a kimblewick and I might go back to the flash then.

[HairyCob]

I have Dolly in a hanging cheek snaffle with independent 'sides' and a 'revolver' in the middle- no nutcracker action at all- and she's generally very good in it- I really don't want to take the route of a stronger bit, as I know that isn't the answer, but it's difficult to get her to stop jogging for home or turning for home when her nose is higher in the air than the Duchess of York's!;)

[Guest]

I am of the opinion if it aint broken don't fiddle with it but I think that I would like to change Brys bit but I have NO experience with bits at all

[MelanieD]

Grakle is meant to be better for stopping crossing the jaw. Drop nosebands are supposedly better for keeping mouth shut. Flash is kind of inbetween and doesn't do the job as well as the other two. Having said that though I did use a flash on fatty, since her bridle already had an attachment it made sense to try it, when she was opening her mouth to evade the bit and tank in whatever direction she felt like that day. Using the flash to put a stop to open mouth and pee off tactics for a while did give me an advantage long enough to persuade her she didn't want to do that and now she goes with no noseband at all. Flashes aren't evil if needed, just overused and often put on far too tight. Used correctly when needed on a horse that has had teeth checked they are okay IMO.

[Est]

I used a drop noseband on Ria for a few weeks once, because (especially in faster work out hacking) she'd open her mouth and go hell for leather with a wicked look in her rolling eyes... :D
I could get 1 finger under the noseband so she could still open her mouth a bit, just not too much, and it worked really well. I didn't need it again after those few weeks - it just helped to break the habit.
Could you borrow a flash or drop from someone to make sure you can get on with it before buying one? Like Bobbin says, some horses make their displeasure known :p

[Pink's lady]

To be honest they're not the worst evil you can do to a horse.;) If they're fitted correctly (i.e loosish and only come into affect when needed) the horse shouldn't really notice them. Nastyness comes when people use them to tightly clamp the poor horses mouth shut on a bit they are obvioulsy not happy with. But it sounds like Dolly's just being a madame. ;)

Why not try one and see. Dolly might hate it with vengence or go OK in it. You won't know until you try it and see.

[KateWooten]

When she's sticking her nose in the air, basically she's 'flipping you off' - ignoring you, snubbing her nose at you ... she's telling you she's the boss, you're just some dumb rider - why should she do what you want ? In these situations, what do you do in return ?

The reason I ask is because yes, a flash/grackle/drop noseband is certainly a good idea to help you regain control in these situations - not least to keep the pair of you safe .. but as far as the long-term, getting her to stop all this and going back to being able to ride in just a halter or whatever .. you'll need to rethink some training options, right ?

For me, it would be literally making it so much more work to throw her head and grab the bit and ignore me.. that in the end she'd just give it up as not worth it. The instant she started all that, oh my, all heck would break loose. Little mare would find her butt spinning round so fast, and then there's all that flexing, and backing up ten paces,and shoulders over 180, and back ten paces and spin that butt and flex, flex, flex, ,..... and then she's still got to take one calm quiet pace forward or it's all going to start all over again.

(Yes, it has taken me 3 hours to walk the 1/2 mile back from the trail along the road. But just once. :D )

[BeachRiding]

Worth a try!

[domane]

Hmmm.... a good idea from Kate but only you, HC, know how Dolly is likely to react to that. You have built up such a wonderful relationship with her BUT she also has to realise when you mean business. It's not knowing whether the short-sharp-shock treatment would be beneficial or disastrous......

Food for thought.....

[chev]

I'd try it. It doesn't need to strap her mouth shut; it just needs to be enough to stop her opening it wide enough to evade in the first place. If she's otherwise happy with her mouth, and relaxing her jaw nicely, try a grackle (they're better at preventing horses from crossing the jaw) adjusted just tight enough to stop her evading, but not tight enough to prevent her from ralxing and opening her mouth a little.

One of two things will happen; she'll either get tense and fight the noseband too, in which case you take it off and rethink; or it'll be enough just to give her the idea she can't fight and she'll settle down and listen. Nothing to lose either way... :D

I'd prefer to try that than a martingale, because they don't directly influence your rein aids, and unless they're done up too tight (which many unfortunately are) they will only come into play when she starts to argue.

[Jay.o]

I had *nearly* the same problem as you, but only schooling, never hacking. She usually put her head up and opened her mouth to evade me if I was asking her to do something new (ie cantering). It's as if she was saying "I cant!!" and throwing a paddy like a child at me.

I did put on a flash. I put it on loose so I can fit both my four fingers on each hand in at the same time. She can still breath with out restriction and I thick she has learnt that evading the bit now is not an option. It has encouraged her to try a bit more before having a trantrum. She is more relaxed when schooling and a lovely outline is emerging.

I would say try it. Dont put it on too tight, just loose to begin with so she can get used to it. She'll either hate it and be worse or she'll accept it and work nicer.

Let us know.

[HairyCob]

Oh, Kate, if you could see how much 'one rein stop', 'turn this way' 'turn that way', 'back up' 'stand still' we do on hacks when she's messing....!! It's WHEN I do those things to get her listening and show her who's boss that she really starts to evade, which is why I thought a flash for a couple of weeks might help get the message that I am in charge (pleasantly!) home!

Thankyou everyone for your replies, and thankyou for not shooting me for even thinking about it;)

I have now 'fenced' an decent sized 'arena' in the riding field, so I'm going to try more schooling first, but if I continue to have a problem, then I'll try a flash or grackle.

[c2b]

This is an interesting thread to me. I have had my mare for 9 months now. My instructor says she opens her mouth and evades when she is having a strop. I am a novice rider but I have a sharer who is a very experienced rider and my mare does the same with her. I have just put a flash on her. Only used it once and the difference was amazing. She was so responsive. No fighting to do what was asked. I have just had my first hack out in months that was totally enjoyable. My plan is to only use it when out hacking, as the dangers are obviously greater. So far I am impressed.

[Afellpony]

I'm with Chev on this one.

[notpoodle]

sounds like angel when she's on a mission :D when she puts her mind to it, she is the Queen of jaw-crossing, tongue-out-sticking and neck-locking :rolleyes: (like yours, preferably in jog mode). I had been thinking of trying the flash on her for a little while to, er, demonstrate to her that i *can* indeed outsmart the pony should i choose to do so!

so far, i haven't tried it yet though, and am still working with the 'sudden give of rein, that will confuse the hell out of her' tactic - pony falls for it most times!!

Julia
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[KateWooten]

Ah, yes, I see your point .. that must be kind of annoying to say the least !!

When I'm doing all this 'putting them to work' thing .. it's hard to describe - it's really not a 'short sharp shock' type of thing ... and it's not an emotional thing either it's very much more matter-of-fact than that. It's much more like 'oh cool, Rosie, I thought we were just going to walk on home, but no we're going to do lots of lovely dressage :)' I do it all very very happily, with lots and lots of hugs for the little mare, lots and lots of very instant pressure-release cycles - it's very smooth, not like do this, do that ... much more like regular, intense schooling - smooth, flowing, good, plenty of breaks ... the tone is very much not 'now you b***, I'll show you' it's much more 'woo hoo let's do advanced dressage - my faourite:) '. You can almost see her roll her eyes and say 'uh oh, mom's gotten all embarrassing again, hope nobody sees this' as she sidepasses merrily down the road.

I think whatever we do, wherever we do it, it's always really important to leve 'sponge time'. You know, for example, when Rosie wants to take the bit and run with it, I'll o-r-stop her, and then lay the reins on her neck. Now it's her choice to stand still or not - but if she chooses not - then that's a good thing - cos I love to do 'more advanced lateral moves' LOL - but then when she does a good one, she gets a good reward for it - and a chance to stand still with the reins draped - if she chooses to take it.

I think a lot of it is in the release timing. I know when I'm late on the release with my joePony, I get a horse who's a little less enthusiastic at going forward. With my mare, if I'm a micro-second late on the release, I have a horse who wants to throw me off and jump up and down on my head :eek:

For my two, all the learning takes place at the moment of release.

I'd still put the flash/grackle on her - it's a clear signal to her that you're taking this seriously, nd that it has to stop.... but along with all other forms of 'pressure' as soon as she softens to you in it, I'd take it off. It's usefulness as a training aid is in the release.

[notpoodle]

by 'sudden give of rein' i think i meant 'release' :D

JUlia
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