Breaking in...Home or away?

[Widget]

If you had a youngster ready to back but not the experience to do it yourself, would you send it away for say 6-8 weeks or have someone come to you 2-3 times a week? If she goes away I get the finished article back and ready to go but im not there to see it all happen. Or I have a lovely trainer who will come 2 or 3 times a week and we do it together under her instruction. If she stays home the money will go further meaning we can carry on having her schooled on for some time after she is broken in.
What would you do?
PS. We have a lovely indoor school here to use so no worries there!

[fitz]

if you have the time, confidence and facilities (which it sounds like you do) I think you should keep her at home. 3 times a week is lots for the trainer to visit.

[baxter]

it actually worked out MORE expensive for me to have my lad backed at home, so i sent him away for 5 weeks..... he'd already been "lightly" backed, but went back to basics, then came back and turned naughty again, bucking, stopping and backing up, he was in denial that he was a ridden horse, once he accepted the fact, he was fine....
don't be fooled by the fact that you send them away and they come back "ready made" cos inevitably they don't , in fact my trainer said to me, backing and groundwork the easy part, it's the riding away part that is very difficult, you horse won't be taught everything in 6 weeks away from home, just usually to walk and trot and possibly canter and be going "forwards" so if i were you and you have the time and money, go for it at home, but remember you can't back something by only working them 2/3 times per week, are you confident and able enough to do the work in between the trainer being there? believe me it's a lot of work, and longreining is an artform i've decided, as is "proper" lunging, let alone getting on their backs...
Bear in mind my lad is 7 highly strung arab, and didn't really want to be a ridden horse...
good luck in whatever you decide.:)

[Peanut]

Personally I would rather have someone come to the yard as I would prefer to handle the horse on a daily basis myself. If you have already established a good bond with your youngster, then being involved with the backing process can only strengthen it.

I also wouldn't want to miss out on all the stages of development and think it would be incredibly interesting to watch. It can also only be an advantage to continue schooling with the money you would save.

[palmerlover52]

Are you going to be selling this youngster on, or keeping him for yourself?

[jenren!!]

Come to the yard, then at least you'll be taught how to do it properly for the future, and you know how your horse will be backed and treated.

Jenny xx

[teabiscuit]

Come to the yard, then at least you'll be taught how to do it properly for the future, and you know how your horse will be backed and treated.

Jenny xx
excellent point, was just going to say that myself

you get two lessons (your horse and you) for the price of one-a bargain :)

[KateWooten]

If it were about saving the money - sell the youngster and buy a subscriptioin to cable TV instead !!

Of course, it's not about the money for you ! It's about the experience, the learning, the bonding with your youngster ... the whole huge wonderful joy of it. You can't (shouldn't) put a price on that. Keep her home and find yourself a truly great trainer to work with you and her together. You can do it. You'll be getting so much more out of it than a broke horse.

[Tootsie4U]

Doing it yourself, even with the help of someone else, requires alot of discipline on your behalf. Im talking about having nerves of steel and the unending ability to hop back on even after coming off for the thousandth time that day. If you're not that sort of rider, you're best off letting the pro's do it.

That said, there's nothing more satisfying than the end result of having a horse you've brought on yourself - who knows you in and out, and likewise. That bond is unbreakable and uncomparable to one with an already trained horse.

[teabiscuit]

Im talking about having nerves of steel and the unending ability to hop back on even after coming off for the thousandth time that day. If you're not that sort of rider, you're best off letting the pro's do it.



that really hasn't been my experience-

if you do it right, you don't have to fall off even once (ok, I only just got there with my last starter, the number of horses I've started must be in the mid twenties)

but the previous three i only fell off once

if you fall off a lot you're doing it wrong :)

[Peanut]

Ditto teabiscuit.

I've been watching the backing of a mare at my yard and it has been done so gently and sensitively that the horse has accepted her rider without any problems at all. It has been a pleasure to watch.

[Tootsie4U]

Right, but, the difference being you're experienced, the OP isnt (as they stated).

And it isnt even about just falling off. Its about having the ability to stick with it even when things go pear shaped. For those with light stomachs, bringing on blank canvas'd horses isnt as easy as it seems. Horses don't speak human so the human better speak horse. Balance, timing and feel are crucial to starting a horse and you can't get that from someone just watching and giving pointers on the ground.

Look through the threads here, there are alot of us who lost it all after only just one fall... sure you dont need to bring on a horse to fall off, but the likelyhood is much more... well, likely :D

[teabiscuit]

well isn't that why she's getting experienced help :confused:

we all have to start somewhere, and Widget sounds like she's given it a lot of thought

[jenren!!]

She wants to get it right with her horse, i admire her. Unlike some people who try and do it themselves and only confuse the horse.

Jenny xx

[baxter]

Absolutely TeaBiscuit, the fact that i had fallen from my horse, was part of the reason he was sent to a trainer, horses should not have riders fall from them, it's very frightening for them and not a good basis to begin their ridden career....Groundwork should resolve any issue your horse has before you attempt ridden work, trainer i sent my horse to, worked through his napping issues, his vicious bucking, general looning before she attempted to ride him, and again now he's home, any days i think he's going to be silly he gets lunged before being ridden to become more submissive to his "teacher" on the ground. Young horses are easiest dealt with from the ground, having an "argument" on a young horses back will result in only one winner, the horse.

[teabiscuit]

baxter-it isn't usually an argument that results in a throw, it's usually the trainer scaring the horse

babies don't know enough to start an argument with you, it's usually fear-a predator on board and all that

i break my horses in on my own, usually giving them 2-3days a week, not every day like it says in all the books

if you listen to the horse, you have all the tools and rules you need.

ETA it certainly isn't ideal for the horse OR rider to have a rider fall off but how many horses never have someone fall off them? (not including fantasy land)

one fall doesn't cause any hassle if you don't let it

[Tootsie4U]

Balance, timing and feel are crucial to starting a horse and you can't get that from someone just watching and giving pointers on the ground.

I dont know Widget, so I dont know if this applies to her or not. She may be more than capable to do it herself, but take my post as a general warning to the many other novice/intermediate riders reading this thread thinking all they need is to bring someone in to help them a few days a week.

For the horses' sake, for the rider's sake, if you dont know what you're doing or dont completely trust your ability, leave the work to the pros. If you doubt yourself, your horse will know. And, thats speaking from experience ;)

[teabiscuit]

but she's not doing it herself-she's getting help ;)

bloomin eck i doubt myself all the time-how do i manage to start horses all these years?
folk who don't doubt themselves are usually not sensitive enough for the job imho

[baxter]

With my horse it was definitely arguments.

The trainer that took him on did the usual groundwork, after a few days he knew the manage meant hard work and would nap so as not to go into it, this was resolved whilst using longreins, as she stated it would be much more difficult to correct this type of vice whilst aboard, so i beg to differ.

Yes i agree to an extent babies don't know arguments, but they soon learn....

And whilst i admire that you break your own horses, each "backer/trainer" has their own way of doing things.

[fitz]

Tootsie I think thats a little harsh. She is getting experienced help to call on if she needs to, and if its done right she shouldnt have keep getting back on as you describe.

I dunno how they back horses where you live if its like that.

[teabiscuit]

With my horse it was definitely arguments.

The trainer that took him on did the usual groundwork, after a few days he knew the manage meant hard work and would nap so as not to go into it, this was resolved whilst using longreins, as she stated it would be much more difficult to correct this type of vice whilst aboard, so i beg to differ.

.
beg to differ from what?
where did i say otherwise?
I do tons of groundwork- that's how i avoid falling off-that's my insurance

[Skyhuntress]

If you had a youngster ready to back but not the experience to do it yourself, would you send it away for say 6-8 weeks or have someone come to you 2-3 times a week? If she goes away I get the finished article back and ready to go but im not there to see it all happen. Or I have a lovely trainer who will come 2 or 3 times a week and we do it together under her instruction. If she stays home the money will go further meaning we can carry on having her schooled on for some time after she is broken in.
What would you do?
PS. We have a lovely indoor school here to use so no worries there!

I'm lucky enough to have a trainer that is really experienced with taking a horse from starter all the way to FEI-starting with lunging gently in sidereins and over cavelettis so they get the idea (usually at about 3-3.5 years old)
If possible, in your situation, I would like to be involved as much as possible. I personally can't be the first one to sit on him the first couple of times (just because I really can't afford to fall) but it's still good to be out there as much as possible. So if it's easier if the trainer comes to you, or if you go to him, just make sure you're involved :)

[baxter]

baxter-it isn't usually an argument that results in a throw, it's usually the trainer scaring the horse

babies don't know enough to start an argument with you, it's usually fear-a predator on board and all that

Was differing from the above that you mentioned earlier... that's all... :o

[Tootsie4U]

All arguments aside, what about those instances when natural instinct takes over? The horse spooks (and you cant tell me that all the groundwork in the world takes that away ALL THE TIME - btw, Im a huge groundwork fan) and bolts, depositing you off the side. It wasnt ill intended, but he caught you unaware ;) If you dont have enough experience in defusing a bolt, then how's someone on the ground going to teach you in the split second you have? :P

[Skyhuntress]

All arguments aside, what about those instances when natural instinct takes over? The horse spooks (and you cant tell me that all the groundwork in the world takes that away ALL THE TIME - btw, Im a huge groundwork fan) and bolts, depositing you off the side. It wasnt ill intended, but he caught you unaware ;) If you dont have enough experience in defusing a bolt, then how's someone on the ground going to teach you in the split second you have? :P

She does have a point. A horse WILL spook, no matter how much groundwork you've done. However, ANY horse will spook if something is scary, be it a youngster or not.

However, there is something about learning as you go. None of these trainers are BORN knowing how to school a youngster, they all have had to learn through mistakes and falls as well.

And if a youngster is prepared enough, there shouldn't be that bucking and rearing you see on TV when somebody just plops on it. Our horses spend 2-3 weeks getting used to having a rider's weight on them, so that when you DO decide to get on, there isn't this "OMG,OMG, OMG!" mentality.

[eventerbabe]

If you are prepared to stick at it and not throw in the towel when things get tough then i say back your horse at home with your instructor. When faced with the choice of sending my horse away to be brought on or doing it myself (with help) i chose to do it myself. No way was i sending my baby away to a strange yard with strange people. It would have fried his poor nerves. I do not trust others with my horse. I prefer to take my time and do things (correctly) myself then i don't end up spending a lot of time repairing mistakes made by others. I also feel that doing all the work myself is what has contributed to the incredible bond i have with my horse.

best of luck though, whatever you decide to do :)

[teabiscuit]

yes they spook, but heck, if we all went oh i can't do that or this, here are all the reasons why, anyone could find a million reasons not to do something.
i don't have that mentality i guess.
as you say, we all have to start somewhere and getting in experienced help is a lot more than i did when i started training horses
yes i got a lot more bruises because of it-knowledge isn't free, you have to pay one way or another

the horses all turned out fine i'm very proud to say

ETA it's a much better idea to pay for the knowledge with cash, not bruises :)

[teabiscuit]

oops i felt i must add.. the horses all turned out fine apart from Jenny who's a bit odd bless her.
she was born way past her due date and though she rides fine when she knows where she is, in fact she's a plod, she can't cope with new experiences and has panic attacks
can't win 'em all, stops you getting complacent :rolleyes:

[Tootsie4U]

ETA it's a much better idea to pay for the knowledge with cash, not bruises :)

AMEN! :D

And definatley kudos to Widget for seeking help - I wasnt trying to undermine her decision - just warning of another side of the coin.

It'd be a shame to see a decent rider be ruined by having her confidence run off after dealing with almost sure things once you venture into the world of starting horses.

Good points teabiscuit. Im not disagreeing with you at all. Just wanted to clarify.

[KateWooten]

Just some thoughts .. no horse is totally bombproof. We owe it to our horses and ourselves to avoid falling as much as possible ... but at the end of the day, we accept some risk of falling. That's horses for you.

Having said that, I started my 2 without a fall or a buck ... it takes true dedication to your own learning - you have to focus your entire being on the task - really taking it seriously. But I was starting them without access to a trainer - with an on-hand trainer a couple fo times a week - that's a great solution in my book. A great opportunity for both horse and handler to improve their communication.

[Widget]

Wow so many replies! Thanks guys. Will try to answer you all. No I dont plan to sell her. I have had her from a year old and plan to keep her unless she proves really unsuitable for me for some reason. Im a competant rider and happy doing the ground work. She already lunges and longreigns and is happy for me to tack up mount and walk around on her. If she stays to be trained at home she will be worked by me in between the days the trainer comes. Its not about the money either. Im not rich but I have saved for the time she was ready for proffessional training. Im not hugely confident about the ridden side of it, mainly because as she is a baby she has limited brakes, acceleration and steering! Im happy to get up and follow instruction and my trainer will also ride her. She is quite sharp tho which my other one isnt so that will be quite a change for me to get used to. Im expecting to fall off her at some point either way so thats not something im worried about. Round here it seems the norm to send them away for a couple of months,have a couple of lessons from the trainer on them then take them home. But then she wont associate me with the ridden work and I wonder if that will be a problem?

[teabiscuit]

Widget, from what you say, you'd get such a lot from keeping her home and having help in. that's what I'd do if I were in your shoes

whatever you decide, good luck and keep us updated on how things go :)
xx

[chev]

The thing is that sending them away still doesn't guarantee success when they come home. I know people who've sent horses away for backing and schooling and found themselves way out of their depth when they're then left with a very green youngster to bring on. Having the initial work done elsewhere doesn't mean you don't have the omg! moments to deal with in their next stage of schooling.

If you've never doen anything like that before, I think having someone come over could be a really valuable experience. Presumabley the trainer will be doing most of the work, with you acting as an assistant? I think that would probably be of huge benefit to both you and the mare. I'm not so sure about the trainer directing you and doing the assistant bit herself... it is very easy to unbalance or spook a baby if you've not done it before.

But the main thing is that every experienced trainer started somewhere. We all had the first horse we backed at some point. It's how you go about that first experience that matters really. The first pony I worked with and backed myself came after assisting my instructor with several others, until she felt I was balanced and confident enough to do the majority of work myself, under her supervision.

I have had falls from babies; not that many really. The more preparation is done, the less likely you are to end up in trouble. So far it sounds like you and your mare are doing just fine. Having the trainer come to you means that that progress can be continued without too much upheaval (going to a new yard can be intimidating for a youngster in itself, without having the added experience of someone else working with them and all that's new with training anyway) and with you involved, even if it's in a mainly observational capacity.

Good luck with her whatever you decide to do! :D

[Tots N Dots]

you horse won't be taught everything in 6 weeks away from home, just usually to walk and trot and possibly canter and be going "forwards"

I really have to say I disagree, Pickle went away on Sunday for 4 - 6 weeks, its not always the amount they learn but the consistancy and the approach, I went to see Pickle last night, I am being involved in every step of his training, I am amazed how well Pickle has done and just how much he has learnt in 4 days, he is lungeing to voice comand, long lineing, yes its all very basic and not to perfection, but what do I expect in 4 days? I had a go at long lineing him myself yesterday, something I have not done for about 20 years! if I was fit and riding everyday then yes I probably would have done it myself, but I am not and the last time I backed a youngster was quite a few years ago. consistancy is also a problem for me as I work and have 2 kids, Pickle is getting 2 short sessions each day, which is much better for him, I am completely happy with where he has gone to, they came very highly recommended, I was also suprised how far along he will be before he comes home, I expected backed and basic commands, but he will be hacking out before he comes home and I am also expected to hack him out there too before he comes home. but I still expect to have lots of work to do with him, he is just a baby.
I will also add that he will now stand to be hose piped and load in and out of a trailer, forward and reverse from any point on the ramp or in the box. bearing in mind it took us over an hour to get him in a trailer to get him there, yes my fault but I dont own a trailer to practice him at the moment.
he was origionally backed at a Monty Roberts demo in February, 15 minutes of experience for him, thats it, I have never lunged him etc, all he has ever done is walk out in hand, so please dont discount the proffesionals.
I also agree that with an experienced instructor and the right facilities there is no reason why you shouldnt do it yourself. I started my 1st pony on my own at the age of 12 and learnt so much from it but I dont bounce quite as well as i used to ;)

[Widget]

Yes I would be the assistant and the trainer would do the majority of the work. Then gradually I would take over once she is more settled. That way I would end up doing it all with my trainer just giving us a normal 'lesson' which I plan to continue with indefinitly. Think I have decided to keep her at home!

[teabiscuit]

good luck, I'm sure you'll find it rewarding and a just fantastic experience

[JaffaAndMe]

If it were me, I'd find someone really good and experienced who would come to my yard and work with my horse. That way, not only can I keep an eye on what they are doing, but I can learn and engage in the process of teaching my youngster.

You hear so many horror stories about horses who have been sent away to be backed and have come back ruined! I would only send my horse away if I was 110% confident that that wouldn't happen (for example, I'd send my horse to someone like Adam Goodfellow and Nicole Golding, if they were to take in starters).