Constantly fighting with my horse about staying on the bit! What to do?

[equestrian3241]

Usually I ride my horse Splash in a kimberwick bit because he has a big engine and can get fast and uncollected but I am going to be in a dressage show in about a weekso I switched him into a snaffle. He has been ridden in a snaffle before but does not work to well in it. I feel like I am constantly fighting with his head because he won't stay collected. My cues to get him to round out are to hold my hands with good contact and push him up into the bit with my legs but he has been ignoring me! Today I went out and got him a jp hunter d-ring with a french link (looks like this http://www.statelinetack.com/global/product_detail.jsp?PRODUCT%3C%3Eprd_id=845524441774587&FOLDER%3C%3Efolder_id=2534374302028826&ASSORTMENT%3C%3East_id=2534374302024174&bmUID=1154044123847&itemNo=1&Ntt=JP+hunter+dee&In=Horse&previousText=JP+hunter+dee&N=156695
because my trainer said that it would give me a little bit more leverage. Does anyone know of any other bits that would work well for my horse and me that I could use in my show? If you have any excersizes that could help him get more on the bit please let me know! Any advice is appreciated! :)

[Tootsie4U]

Hopefully you've heard before that collection ends in the front half of the horse. Its not created there.

Theres one strong statement in your post..."I feel like I am constantly fighting with his head because he won't stay collected". That is a huge oxymoron because true collection is never forced and it surely isnt the result of a fight.

If he does have a big engine, you have that on your side and should be promoting that energy to achieve your outline.

There are alot of variables here and we'd need more input to help you through this one. Is your horse physically capable of working in collection/outline? The proper back muscles and leg muscles must be built up before expecting your horse to be able to work in that manner. Does his tack fit him correctly? Any ill fitting tack can cause a horse to hollow away from the pain which makes his head come up in the air. Are the riders aids correct? Are your hands fixed and unforgiving? You say you are riding him into the bridle which is exactly what you want to do, but if all the parts are working together (the engine, the rider) then you'd be achieving this collectio/outline alot easier than you say you are.

Can you give any more info.?

FYI, a bit wont give you collection. If that were true, we'd all be trotting along with perfect looking horses.

[equestrian3241]

Splash definetly has the muscle to collect. He usually does round out nicely, it is just switching from a kimberwick to a snaffle he thinks he can get away with being lazy. I know that collection doesn't start in the front end but the thing is, he feels like his haunches are under him so he is rounded out, it's just that his head wont round out with the rest of his body. His tack does fit correctly and my hands are not fixed and unforgiving, I always release with my hands when his head moves into the correct position, but he takes advantage of that and as soon as I release, his head is right back in the air. The only reason I am thinking of changing to a french link as opposed to my snaffle is that he is going too fast and it's very hard to slow him down in a regular snaffle bit. So anyway, it's not his whole collection that is the problem because his hind quarters are engaged, it's just that he won't round his neck out to complete the outline, I guess I didn't make that clear in my last post. Thanks for your help, any more advice would be great!

[Tootsie4U]

I always release with my hands when his head moves into the correct position, but he takes advantage of that and as soon as I release, his head is right back in the air.

Could he be not trusting the contact then? If you're releasing everything as a reward, he may feel like he's being dropped - kind of similar to what a sloppy handshake feels like to us. If he does come down nicely on the bit, you need to keep the contact, lightly, but stop all requests that you were giving to ask him to come down. Does that make sense?

The thing is, if a horse is truly engaged it is impossible for him to run around with his head in the air (and his back hollow). I'd guess the only exception is if he's got some conformational issue that prevents him from holding his head at a position you want.

Do you have a picture of the two of your working at a medium trot?

The difference between a regular snaffle and a french link is that the extra break in the metal that the french link offers divides the action of the reins between the right and left side more obviously. I wouldnt think that a french link would give you more stopping/slowing power. It just makes your cues a bit more obvious (right or left) by the way it works on the bars of his mouth. That said, he may find the french link more comfortable and will therefore respond better. IMO, I like the frenchies better.

Try this instead; if you need him to slow, slow your own seat. To still keep him engaged, slow your seat but hold your rise (obviously you need to be working at a rising/posting trot for this). At first you may bounce around a bit until he realizes he needs to match *you* to avoid the jarring (every horse will do this - its just a matter of how much time it takes dependant upon the sensitivity of the horse).

[equestrian3241]

Here are a few pictures of him when he is trotting in his kimberwick bit sorry they are kinda blurry
http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c291/equestrian3241/STILL0014.jpg
http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c291/equestrian3241/STILL0018.jpg
And here is one where he is working in a snaffle (these are old pics of when I first got him, about a year ago so he is more collected now) Please excuse my position in these pics, the saddle was too big so I kept sliding around.
http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c291/equestrian3241/ClaireSplash002.jpg

[Bay Mare]

Can't see the snaffle one very well but he's overbent and behind the contact in the kimberwick. Can you see how his face is behind the vertical and how his neck is shortened? This would suggest that he is being *made* to pull his head in rather than working through correctly from his back end. Also, can you see how the poll isn't the highest point and that the highest point is back towards the middle of the neck?

He also looks to be on his forehand and isn't really engaging his back end which is what you would look for to be 'on the aids'.

I'd like to see him 'sat back' more on his hindquarters and really flexing his hind legs, bringing them through and tracking up (or overtracking depending on what you're doing).

In the snaffle pic one thing that I did notice is that you've dropped your hands low and straightened your arms. Whilst this 'works' to a certain extent in that it can make them drop and arch their necks it isn't correct and he won't be working correctly doing this. Remember the bit-rein-arm line!

He's a nice looking boy :) I'd stick to the snaffle and (with the help of a GOOD instructor) work on getting him working correctly and accepting the bit rather than just pulling him into a nice shape :) It WILL be worth it in the end .... she says ... hoping and praying that its true :D

Good luck :D

[emlybob]

Now i have seen the piccys i will make my comments please don't take offence. If u came into a lesson with me i would say the same things.

Firstly you say your riding him from the leg to the hand, but in all three of these piccys your legs are too far foreward and not wrapped around the horse, therefore not being able to push him into the hand. Try and have a straight line from your ear to shoulder to hip to heel.

Secondly in the last picture youe hands are far too low. You certainly do not achieve a correct way of going by haveing your hands here. This not only forces the outline but also may make your horse resist. Try having a bit more elasticity in your elbows by lifting your hands and creating an "L" shape from your shoulder to your hand.

Thirdly, I agree the bit does not create the horses way of going. Put ** horses energy to good use. Try and use the half halt and create more from the hind leg the ask him quietly to soften in the jaw. Don't throw your contact away when he softens just relax it otherwise u throw away everything u have created.

I hope this helps and hasn't offended just trying to offer some advice. Good Luck

[Tootsie4U]

It does look like you're pulling his head down and in. Keep in mind what I said that if a horse is truly engaged, its physically impossible for them to run around with their heads in the air.

First, if you're still riding him in the dressage saddle, move it about two inches back. This will move it off his shoulder and free up the shoulder to allow him to move better. If the saddle is pinching his shoulder (it will if its sitting on it, even if its well fitted) he wont stride out. He can't engage if he's being restricted.

Secondly, lift your hands and keep your thumbs on top. If you're thumbs are not on top, it makes your hands heavier and harder to the horses' mouth. Your elbows need to bend so they can flex with his movement. All three pictures, your arms are straight.

Try all that, added to what I've already advised - see what that gets you. I know these pics are old, but in each he's really short strided. He can give you alot more. Let him and dont restrict that forward movement by pulling on his head.

When I look at your pictures, I see an honest horse. In each photo, his ears are back listening for your next request. You look like a confident rider, so trust him and let him go. Get the engine going, really good and steady. Work on a long rein while doing so so he learns he wont be pulled around anymore. Once he begins to trust it again, he'll relax and lengthen and when that happens you can then use your reins to contain the forward motion. Thats all your reins are supposed to do, contain - not create.

You've got the beginings, keep working on it!

[Skyhuntress]

Tootsie4U has given you great advice.
My main comment is about the bit.
When I reschool horses, those that evade the bit by "ducking" or going so far behind the vertical usually do it for two reason: improperly used draw reins or too harsh bits in novice hands.

I'll be honest here, in my years of riding and seeing horses ridden, there has NEVER been a horse (or a stallion) who NEEDED to be in a kimberwick or a likewise harsh bit. Now, that doesn't mean to start with, that they don't have a harsh mouth, run through your aids, whatever. But by getting a harsher bit, you are doing nothing to help the problem. In fact, you're making it worse, because you're not CORRECTING the problem, you are putting something stronger in their mouth that masks it until they grow immune to it, or learn to completely duck, which your horse is doing.

I'd seriously recommend starting from scratch in a nice snaffle or french link ( my personal fav!) and THEN following the advice given to you - keeping in mind that you are now also going to be reschooling your horse's mouth into being sensitive yet again.

[jenren!!]

So let me get this straight- if you release when he flexes he lifts his head back up again? If yes then it looks like you have some schooling to do. You need self-carriage. Its no good swapping and changing bits to create the 'pretty picture' - he will do it in a snaffle. When you ride him, push him with your legs and make him stride out.l Try and make him stretch. What you're looking for is for him to be flexible along his top line. Once he has the correct muscles building up he will be able to keep himself in an outline, and not rely on you for contact. It does to me sound like hes been schooled using hands - dont worry i have made that mistake before. You need to use minimal rein, but more leg. Do lots of stretching work, asking to him to stretch down and perform lots of transitions, and circles, make him supple. For your dressage test dont worry too much about the head, just see what the judges say and take in their comments.

He is a nice looking boy, and i think with a bit of work you'll do very well with him, but if you use harsher bits just to 'get him where you want him' it will create the opposite from what you want.

Jenny xx

[Herbie's mummy]

good advise every one has given you :)
just have to say if the saddle does not fit-do not use it.

[Emz]

Ditto what others have said.

But i'd stop release your hands when he come down. Your hands should be soft, supple and spongey but still a consistent contact that your horse can then work up into. By dropping him then picking him up you may be confusing him, your askign hm to work then when he does you don't give him an stability to continue working correctly. If you want to just slightly raise and soften your inside hand as a reward and to stop him leanign but you outside hand will need to support your horse to begin with until he's truley in self carriage.

[Siogfinsceal]

I wouldnt try and tell you what you are doing wrong without riding the horse to see what he is doing. My own horse goes lovely in her 3 ring and grakle...except in a lesson. She had a ewe neck when I got her and over 3 years I have managed to get that sorted she now looks lovely but If I try to ride her in a snaffle she goes overbent and wont work forward but if I give her any rein at all she throws her head off and is off like a shot. Im good a flat work and never have this problem on any other horse. Normally I would relax my hands and push her forward into a contact from my leg but this doesnt work with my mare. I used to always hear that it was my fault for not 'giving with my hands' until I put people up on her in a snaffle and they soon see how it is lol! I now dont do dresage on her - I ride her in her 3 ring and grakle and she goes lovely on the bit and when it competitons I just let her do what he does best - jumping! Im just saying while we can give advise on here im always reluctant to judge too much unless ive sat on the horse it can so often seem to be the riders fault when its not.